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Pissflaps posted:What concessions have Labour won following their current strategy ?? what concessions would they have won with any strategy
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Feb 17, 2017 13:07
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"Work hard to ameliorate it", "soften it from the inside" are hilariously garbage hand-waving. Guys, let's support Trump. Then we can reform Trumpism ~from inside~.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:09
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Once we surrender to the nazis, and are put into the concentration camps, we will be able to reform germany from the inside. The real fight has begun.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:12
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Baron Corbyn posted:What if the only way to stop Brexit was to let Tony Blair invade a Middle Eastern country? Can we already reclassify the UK as one?
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Feb 17, 2017 13:21
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Fangz posted:Once we surrender to the nazis, and are put into the concentration camps, we will be able to reform germany from the inside. The real fight has begun. Definitely. Everyone voted for them after all, it's what the public want. I know we didn't think they were a good idea before but who are we to stand in the way of the will of the fatherland?
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Feb 17, 2017 13:21
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MikeCrotch posted:The thing that's really getting to me from the Moral Remainer side is both the complete lack of nuance or compromise from the position and the total absence of any kind of plan to get concessions from the Tories. That's the problem, really. I'm fine with us remaining after all, but short of a political coup it's basically impossible at this point. Instead of shouting loudly to remain it'd be more useful to shout for the softest possible leave. Like hell, remaining in the single market would remove like 90% of concerns of the Remain side.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:23
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Lunar Suite posted:Can we already reclassify the UK as one?
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Feb 17, 2017 13:24
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Namtab posted:Hot take: brexit could never have been stopped. the second the Tories won a majority government with the manifesto commitment to hold a referendum brexit was inevitable. Given right up to referendum day even most of the top of the Leave campaigns weren't expecting a win, I'd hardly call it inevitable. Hell, if the weather had been a bit nicer PM Cameron would be just finishing up The Harrying Of The Back Benches about now.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:25
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Fangz posted:Once we surrender to the nazis, and are put into the concentration camps, we will be able to reform germany from the inside. The real fight has begun. Is this meant to be a serious comparison between Brexit and the systematic genocide of Jewish people, other assorted minorities and the political left?
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Feb 17, 2017 13:27
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Tesseraction posted:Is this meant to be a serious comparison between Brexit and the systematic genocide of Jewish people, other assorted minorities and the political left? Yes tesseraction I'm positive it is.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:29
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Feb 17, 2017 13:32
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A dog turd in a red rosette could've won the 1997 election, which is coincidentally what happened. I'm solidly confident Blair wouldn't win an election right now
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Feb 17, 2017 13:34
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It's not even like what Blair said is terribly different from Corbyn's "it's not racist for people to feel concerned about immigration" stand. The contradiction in the Brexit = immigration controls stance that Corbyn is shifting towards (with his softened stance on free movement) is that it keeps non-EU immigration intact as a convenient scapegoat for the right wing. So you slash the number of foreign doctors and nurses available for the NHS, while still letting the Mail post headlines about Brown People In Are Hospitals, which produces the next crisis to justify the next bullshit. Tesseraction posted:Is this meant to be a serious comparison between Brexit and the systematic genocide of Jewish people, other assorted minorities and the political left? No, it's a comparison between Brexit ukippers and the nazis. The point if it isn't obvious is that supporting Brexit doesn't get Labour 'inside', it gets them into the political construct designed by their political opponents for the annihilation of the Left. Resisting the right isn't about 'okay now we'll work HARD', it's about taking all opportunities to fight, and not entering into situations where those opportunities get taken away. Fangz fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 13:35
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Tesseraction posted:Is this meant to be a serious comparison between Brexit and the systematic genocide of Jewish people, other assorted minorities and the political left?  
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Feb 17, 2017 13:40
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Fangz posted:No, it's a comparison between Brexit ukippers and the nazis. Hateful though they are, they are much more cowardly than the street thugs of the NSDAP. Notice how Paul Nuttalls had to move house because he couldn't even get a bunch of volunteers to guard his hateful arse. If you believe that voting for Brexit is collaborator-worthy then I'm afraid you'll have to turn to guerrilla warfare, but you'll have to forgive Corbyn if he doesn't believe in hand-grenading the commons.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:40
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https://twitter.com/UKDemockery/status/832569766594375680
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Feb 17, 2017 13:42
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Tesseraction posted:Hateful though they are, they are much more cowardly than the street thugs of the NSDAP. Notice how Paul Nuttalls had to move house because he couldn't even get a bunch of volunteers to guard his hateful arse. They already murdered one of our MPs. They are ahead of schedule on that.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:42
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Fangz posted:The point if it isn't obvious is that supporting Brexit doesn't get Labour 'inside', it gets them into the political construct designed by their political opponents for the annihilation of the Left. Resisting the right isn't about 'okay now we'll work HARD', it's about taking all opportunities to fight, and not entering into situations where those opportunities get taken away. Wait, so now Brexit is a political construct designed for the annihilation of the political left? And the Tories are going to achieve this by using their parliamentary majority to push for a Brexit strategy the left won't like?
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Feb 17, 2017 13:43
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Fangz posted:They already murdered one of our MPs. They are ahead of schedule on that. Britain First and the EDL are not UKIP, even if their bases' average intellect are in the same quartile. I agree that BF and the EDL are dangerous, but I'll give you a hint: turning back on Brexit is not going to make neo-Nazis less violent.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:45
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Tesseraction posted:Wait, so now Brexit is a political construct designed for the annihilation of the political left? The simpliest way is to push for a Brexit strategy that sets up a series of Hobson's choices that divide and destroy the left. Tesseraction posted:Britain First and the EDL are not UKIP, even if their bases' average intellect are in the same quartile. The goal for the German left was not 'let's make the nazis less violent'. It was to defend their cause and themselves at every juncture.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:45
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Fangz posted:The simpliest way is to push for a Brexit strategy that sets up a series of Hobson's choices that divide and destroy the left. So the left is going to be annihilated because they'll find themselves split over ideological differences? I have some bad news for you.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:48
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Fangz posted:The goal for the German left was not 'let's make the nazis less violent'. It was to defend their cause and themselves at every juncture. Are we talking 1920s-30s here? Because again I have some bad news for you about how that worked out.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:49
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Tesseraction posted:So the left is going to be annihilated because they'll find themselves split over ideological differences? Tesseraction posted:Are we talking 1920s-30s here? Because again I have some bad news for you about how that worked out. You're kinda making my point for me.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:50
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It's sorta great that we are delving into the weeds of an offhand joke I made, but I guess that means you concede that there's nothing objectionable about the statement that "working hard" and "soften from inside" is handwavy bullshit?
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Feb 17, 2017 13:54
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Fangz posted:You're kinda making my point for me. Make it explicit?
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Feb 17, 2017 13:55
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Fangz posted:It's sorta great that we are delving into the weeds of an offhand joke I made, but I guess that means you concede that there's nothing objectionable about the statement that "working hard" and "soften from inside" is handwavy bullshit? Ah yes, the Holocaust, hilarious joke. I focused on it because it's an offensive comparison. I tend not to just pull out the corollary of "if you bring up Hitler you lose the argument" but Godwin's point was that pulling out "THE HOLOCAUST" to describe everything you think is bad is demeaning to the people systematically slaughtered.But more to the point if you were serious then you'd be betraying the same logical inconsistency of pro-Lifers who claim that abortion is murder but then just sit around trying to legislate around it instead of actively fighting, violently, to prevent a genocide unlike the world has ever seen.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:59
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Zalakwe posted:
I would agree, but the problem is that labour MPs didn't. They voted overwhelmingly for the 2015 act to have the referendum.
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Feb 17, 2017 14:00
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But fine, let's get to the crux of your issue wherein Labour did not to enough to fight the commons vote. Now let's imagine that Charisma Machine Owen Smith had won the leadership election last year. He triple-line whips Labour to vote against Article 50, and even rebels like Corbyn and Skinner go along with it. Now what happens?
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Feb 17, 2017 14:00
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Feb 17, 2017 14:09
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Tesseraction posted:But fine, let's get to the crux of your issue wherein Labour did not to enough to fight the commons vote. We still lose, but at least we are fighting. We need to get people used to fighting these people on every single point, on every single step. Surrendering now doesn't make it easier to fight later, it gets people used to yielding. "Yeah okay this new thing isn't that different from that thing we already agreed to." "Well, I guess our resistance won't matter here either." "Hey we can always fight REALLY HARD on the next thing." Tesseraction posted:Ah yes, the Holocaust, hilarious joke. Sure, I think using the Nazis as an example to complain about videogames or cartoons is dumb and demeaning. But given that we are discussing the rise of the far right across the world, a nazi is running the US, Brexit will lead to an alliance with said nazi, neo-nazis are shooting opposition politicians and the Left is imploding, I think it's right and valid to actually use the end state of all of this in an offhand joke. They put political opponents in the concentration camps before they put Jews there.
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Feb 17, 2017 14:11
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Some genuinely great ones in there. Maltalavista is a personal favourite.
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Feb 17, 2017 14:11
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The Tory insane Hard Brexit plan is aimed at destroying UKIP. The left doesn't vote for them they don't worry much about how the left feel.
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Feb 17, 2017 14:14
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It's hard to turn a rout around. This sense of resignation everyone seems to have adopted to justify Corbyn's vote? That's what voting against Brexit would have avoided. Maybe then Corbyn's 'real fight' would seem less of a joke.
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Feb 17, 2017 14:15
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ANYTHING YOU SOW posted:I would agree, but the problem is that labour MPs didn't. They voted overwhelmingly for the 2015 act to have the referendum. I have to admit I did not consider that angle on it. I don't know if it changes my perspective - depends if you count committing to give the public a say as absolving you of your commitment. Perhaps Corbyn is The Dice Man. I expect there is a deep warren of "direct democracy" rabbit holes here so to try and avoid that all I'll say is this - If the genuinely did not want Brexit to happen they could at least have abstained, anything else is putting politics above principle on the biggest issue they are ever likely to face a vote on. It will be killing careers for years. It could actually end the Labour party, really. Zalakwe fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 14:15
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Fangz posted:It's hard to turn a rout around. This sense of resignation everyone seems to have adopted to justify Corbyn's vote? That's what voting against Brexit would have avoided. Maybe then Corbyn's 'real fight' would seem less of a joke. If Labour had voted against invoking article 50 the vote would still have passed. I don't get what is hard to understand here. Brexit is happening because the british people have been conned and lied to. Just like Blair conned and lied to people about the Iraq war.
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Feb 17, 2017 14:16
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Tesseraction posted:But fine, let's get to the crux of your issue wherein Labour did not to enough to fight the commons vote. Well obviously all the Tory rebels that were *clearly* waiting in the wings would have found their nerve and voted against Article 50! Then we would never speak of this issue again as it would have been resolved for all time. Frankly, we should be using the fact that people are so staggeringly misinformed on the EU to aim for the softest Brexit possible, so that basically nothing changes but people can still be told that Brexit has happened and the will of the people enacted. My real worry is that by having the left expend all its energy on a potentially futile battle to remain in what ultimately is not a left wing institution, the Tories will get away with far worse stuff domestically. The EU didn't stop austerity, privatisation or the NHS crisis, after all.
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Feb 17, 2017 14:16
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Zalakwe posted:anything else is putting politics above principle on the biggest issue they are ever likely to face a vote on. It will be killing careers for years. It's actually putting a principle (democracy) over a political assessment that it would be better to stay in the EU. That won't kill any careers.
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Feb 17, 2017 14:22
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Fangz posted:We still lose, but at least we are fighting. Remaining in the EU and fighting the far right are not and have never been the same thing. Look at Poland and Hungary, the EU isn't exactly stopping open fascism in those countries. And Labour voting en-masse against Article 50 cuts down their options in the long run, opens them up to myriad of attacks and still *doesn't provide a plan going forward*. I think Corbyn handled the whole affair clumsily but I think the underlying reasoning for the vote was sound, or at least as sound as possible given the poo poo sandwich Labour are being forced to eat. Don't forget that a huge number of Labour constituencies voted to leave, so its entirely likely that whipping against A50 would have produced even more chaos and rebellions.
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Feb 17, 2017 14:22
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Fangz posted:We still lose, but at least we are fighting. Okay, so Labour's whipped opposition fails to pass. Article 50 passes with only Tory support. How well does Owen Smith do in the next election? Remember he's now splitting the pro-Remain vote with the Lib Dems (lol) Fangz posted:Sure, I think using the Nazis as an example to complain about videogames or cartoons is dumb and demeaning. But given that we are discussing the rise of the far right across the world, a nazi is running the US, Brexit will lead to an alliance with said nazi, neo-nazis are shooting opposition politicians and the Left is imploding, I think it's right and valid to actually use the end state of all of this in an offhand joke. So your idea to stop the far right gaining ground is to fight hard for remaining in the EU? On the basis that the referendum wasn't a supermajority?
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Feb 17, 2017 14:25
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JFairfax posted:If Labour had voted against invoking article 50 the vote would still have passed. I don't get what is hard to understand here. If Corbyn had fought Brexit the left would not be parroting the suicidal argument that it's meaningless to fight battles you are unlikely to win.
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Feb 17, 2017 14:27
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