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Considering almost half the country is openly embracing the rise of fascism and Nazi-era scare tactics WRT muslims/mexicans I'd be stunned if there weren't lots of people who were more concerned with making sure the maybe guilty are punished than freeing the definitely innocent.
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Feb 13, 2017 00:01
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Execute the entire human race, just in case.
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Feb 13, 2017 04:53
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Doc Hawkins posted:I can easily believe that some people are more worried about false negatives than false positives, though I wish they were more specific with their relative valuations; what ratio of guilty people to innocent people allowed to live is too high? 10? 1? .1? A survey: http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/guilty.htm
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Feb 13, 2017 05:12
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This conversation reminds me of Soon to be So Called Justice Neil Gorsuch's take on the Right to Die. Taking of life by private persons is always wrong. Hmmm. Guess we know where he falls now.
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Feb 13, 2017 06:07
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Are you citing an article by Volokh that uses a descriptive legal survey methodology to claim an answer to a moral question? 
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Feb 13, 2017 06:42
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I did not read it as having quite that intent:quote:The travels and metamorphoses of n through all lands and eras are the stuff that epic miniseries are made of. n is the father of criminal law. This is its story. Fun and informative, thank you ulmont. 
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Feb 13, 2017 08:21
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VitalSigns posted:Execute the entire human race, just in case. There is no such thing as innocence; only degrees of guilt.
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Feb 13, 2017 08:45
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Discendo Vox posted:Are you citing an article by Volokh that uses a descriptive legal survey methodology to claim an answer to a moral question? Yes, I cited an article that surveys estimates of n guilty men from biblical times through cases from every state and then comes up with two differing mathematical formulas for calculating n based on crime rates as a definitive way to settle a moral question once and for all. Seriously, did your mother have any children that lived?
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Feb 13, 2017 17:27
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ulmont posted:Yes, I cited an article that surveys estimates of n guilty men from biblical times through cases from every state and then comes up with two differing mathematical formulas for calculating n based on crime rates as a definitive way to settle a moral question once and for all. Yes, obviously. Ok, let's try this a different way. Why are you citing this garbage?
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Feb 13, 2017 21:50
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Discendo Vox posted:Yes, obviously. Ok, let's try this a different way. Why are you citing this garbage? As a joke, obviously.
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Feb 13, 2017 21:58
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evilweasel posted:As a joke, obviously. Satirical Volokh cites need to be signposted- too many people take him seriously. 
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Feb 13, 2017 22:03
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Rygar201 posted:This conversation reminds me of Soon to be So Called Justice Neil Gorsuch's take on the Right to Die. Taking of life by private persons is always wrong. Hmmm. Guess we know where he falls now. So then how does he feel about Stand Your Ground laws?
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Feb 13, 2017 23:06
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Discendo Vox posted:Yes, obviously. Ok, let's try this a different way. Why are you citing this garbage? Do you know of any other source collecting and providing references for a significant number of the differing values that have been proposed for the 'n' of 'n guilty men'? evilweasel posted:As a joke, obviously. But mostly this. Discendo Vox posted:Satirical Volokh cites need to be signposted- too many people take him seriously. I'm going to bet that you didn't look at the article at all before posting furiously about it; in particular, I have serious doubt that you even know who the author is.
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Feb 13, 2017 23:07
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You're right that I got the author wrong, but the method is ridiculous enough to be worthy of Eugene. And you're now arguing both sides of why you were citing it. Experimental philosophy: not even once.
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Feb 13, 2017 23:11
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Thaddius the Large posted:So then how does he feel about Stand Your Ground laws? My favorite Stand Your Ground incident was a gangster in Florida who initiated a confrontation with a rival gangster, which turned into a shootout, which turned into a homicide, which turned into an acquittal, because if you're in a shootout you are obviously in fear for your life.  I mean, I think he was convicted on some drug charges and suchlike, but he ducked Murder One.
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Feb 13, 2017 23:16
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GreyjoyBastard posted:My favorite Stand Your Ground incident was a gangster in Florida who initiated a confrontation with a rival gangster, which turned into a shootout, which turned into a homicide, which turned into an acquittal, because if you're in a shootout you are obviously in fear for your life. I thought you were talking about Zimmerman (playing loose with “gangster”) till you got to the drug charges part.
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Feb 13, 2017 23:21
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Discendo Vox posted:You're right that I got the author wrong, but the method is ridiculous enough to be worthy of Eugene. And you're now arguing both sides of why you were citing it. Experimental philosophy: not even once. An article can be entertaining while still having accurate citations on an esoteric topic. I understand this may be difficult for you.
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Feb 13, 2017 23:24
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ToxicSlurpee posted:There is no such thing as innocence; only degrees of guilt. At this point I'd probably trust Cardassian leadership and justice over what the GOP and Trump want to do.
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Feb 13, 2017 23:40
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Discendo Vox posted:You're right that I got the author wrong, but the method is ridiculous enough to be worthy of Eugene. And you're now arguing both sides of why you were citing it. Experimental philosophy: not even once. It's eugene's little brother apparently Also author of other great works like "the doj's misguided withdrawal from private prisons" He also never took down his old volokh page EwokEntourage fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Feb 13, 2017 |
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Feb 13, 2017 23:43
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Platystemon posted:I thought you were talking about Zimmerman (playing loose with “gangster”) till you got to the drug charges part. Well that, and Zimmerman stalked a teenage boy through the neighborhood, not a rival gangster.
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Feb 14, 2017 02:47
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Sasha's a clone of Eugene, hth
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Feb 15, 2017 16:34
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So is Gorsuch in line behind all Trump's other appointees to get a confirmation hearing or is this a separate track?
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Feb 15, 2017 19:57
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Javid posted:So is Gorsuch in line behind all Trump's other appointees to get a confirmation hearing or is this a separate track? Gorsuch completes 68-page questionnaire for SCOTUS confirmation hearings (3 days ago)
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Feb 15, 2017 20:59
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Well this looks horrifying. The AP reports Trump considering mobilizing 100K National Guardsman tour assist in apprehending and deporting undocumented immigrants. Ethnic cleansing and concentration camps in modern America 
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Feb 17, 2017 16:42
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Rygar201 posted:Well this looks horrifying. This is being immediately and strongly denied, FWIW. Somebody hosed up bad but we're not that far gone yet (probably).
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Feb 17, 2017 16:45
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Rygar201 posted:Well this looks horrifying. The white house is denying it and saying that it was just a draft memo similar to the 20% tariff thing they immediately backed down on.
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Feb 17, 2017 16:45
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They're trying to normalize other extreme actions- naive Overton pushing, basically.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:22
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haveblue posted:This is being immediately and strongly denied, FWIW. Somebody hosed up bad but we're not that far gone yet (probably). It's being denied by Sean Spicer, whose job is to lie as loudly and angrily as possible, while the AP clearly saw the memo about it considering they know it's 11 pages and who wrote it Not going to go with Spicer's denials here.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:28
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It seems to be an early memo of something they might do in the future but are not immediately planning.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:30
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Of course the Trump administration would never do anything crazy and terrible, we should definitely trust them on this, it's not like that could ever backfire, right guys? 
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Feb 17, 2017 17:38
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Rygar201 posted:Well this looks horrifying. If camps holding migrants for deportation are ethnic cleansing/concentration camps I've got some decades-old bad news for you.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:41
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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DeusExMachinima posted:If camps holding migrants for deportation are ethnic cleansing/concentration camps I've got some decades-old bad news for you. I'm aware of our sordid history and modern moral failings as well, thank you.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:43
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haveblue posted:This is being immediately and strongly denied, FWIW. Somebody hosed up bad but we're not that far gone yet (probably). It's being denied but the AP has a copy of the memo in question and named the author and confirmed it was being discussed. The administration lies. The AP is credible.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:54
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Mr. Nice! posted:The white house is denying it and saying that it was just a draft memo similar to the 20% tariff thing they immediately backed down on. I.e., "oh gently caress you caught us"
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Feb 17, 2017 17:55
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evilweasel posted:It's being denied by Sean Spicer, whose job is to lie as loudly and angrily as possible, while the AP clearly saw the memo about it considering they know it's 11 pages and who wrote it Also, Trump promised a deportation force during the campaign. Like everything else he said, he meant what he promised during the campaign.
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Feb 17, 2017 18:00
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True, but I would have expected more of an aggressive "Yeah, so?" response if this really was imminent.
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Feb 17, 2017 18:08
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Rygar201 posted:I'm aware of our sordid history and modern moral failings as well, thank you. Funny thing is, back in the "good old days" America actually was better at immigration that we are now. The system we have today is a (relatively) recent invention. It's pretty messed up that some people think it's easier/better to just roll out the NG rather than go back to an immigration system that probably allowed their ancestors in. Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's being denied but the AP has a copy of the memo in question and named the author and confirmed it was being discussed. Yep. I wouldn't be surprised if ICE's raids weren't a warm-up. Or it might be them deliberately leaking to test the waters.
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Feb 17, 2017 18:10
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Rygar201 posted:Well this looks horrifying. Meanwhile Obama's raids were still much bigger than anything Trump has done on that front thus far. It is nice that people are finally paying attention now though.
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Feb 17, 2017 18:13
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Yeah that was kinda my point. The time to be #woke and do 3 million person marches was when your own party was in power. Then you'd be marginally more likely to be successful as opposed to being loving doomed because  if you think Trump or executive police agencies care now.
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Feb 17, 2017 18:14
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Meanwhile Obama's raids were still much bigger than anything Trump has done on that front thus far. It is nice that people are finally paying attention now though. I have several mexican-american friends who laughed at me when I spoke with breathless horror of CBP taking people from the airports without access to lawyers and taking them to undisclosed locations that act as deportation processing camps. Then they told me that that had been happening for years, but nobody cared before Trump was doing it.
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Feb 17, 2017 18:15
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