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Senju Kannon posted:eh japan has a multi party system, and while it's helped them to have a very healthy communist party the reality is that until 1993 the liberal democratic party (the conservative/neo-liberal party) had complete domination of the elections and since 93 has been in control as part of coalition governments. i mean, abe is ldp. is it any wonder that the boom and bust japan experienced was in part due to these neo-liberal economic policies? Senju Kannon posted:i don't know if i'd call the ldp inoffensive, and i'm not personally a fan of a moderate government the LDP wasn't really a conservative party until the early 90s, it was heavily decentralized and was more like a loose federation of independent MPs than a unified, Westminster-style party. the center-left half of the party dominated it throughout the postwar period, until the 80s with Nakasone really. Yoshida, Ikeda, Sato, Tanaka, all of those people were from the centrist half that split and formed the DPJ eventually. that's why they won, they occupied the center and even the moderate left, and enacted policies that the public wanted. meanwhile the JSP staked its entire platform on ripping up the alliance with the USA and going neutral in the cold war, and pretty much allowed the center-left half of the LDP to offer economic policies unopposed. it wanted to sever relations with South Korea and recognize North Korea until 1993, for example it's very fashionable to pin the failure of the japanese left on the japanese being a fascist hive mind or whatever, but not only was the old LDP not actually very conservative (i believe it didn't even use the word to describe itself until after the reorganization of the 90s), the real reason the japanese left failed is that they pretty much completely abdicated the responsibility of offering a viable governing alternative. the left-wing parties in europe moderated to a more liberal, social democratic position and the japanese left did not and the word 'neoliberal' doesn't mean what you think it means icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 20:35
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you're not wrong about me and neo-liberal, but i actually read that about abe in a us publication. i'm only just starting to read into japanese politics so my analysis is based entirely off of "what i remember from this one chapter of a book i read this week" so being wrong is not entirely surprising to me. thanks for informing me, though edit; "the left failed because it failed to offer a viable alternative" is just like... the most perfect way to describe the left's continual failure to implement any kind of political change in any system of government in any nation ever
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Feb 17, 2017 20:47
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Senju Kannon posted:you're not wrong about me and neo-liberal, but i actually read that about abe in a us publication. i'm only just starting to read into japanese politics so my analysis is based entirely off of "what i remember from this one chapter of a book i read this week" so being wrong is not entirely surprising to me. thanks for informing me, though you also have to remember outside of Scandanavia the left parties weren't enormously successful in Europe either. The German SPD only came to power in 1968 after having moved way to the right on foreign relations and economics, fully accepting NATO and Germany's role as American anti-communist ally, dropping ideas of socialist transformation of the economy and simply advocating a welfare state, and even then had to go into coalition with a basically libertarian free-market party. in France the left didn't get to power till 1981 with Mitterand, who tries to implement a big socialist nationalization package but is smacked down by the IMF and World Bank and has to basically scrap the whole thing and acquiesce to German-led Euro austerity policy. in fact the most successful socialist party is probably Labour in the UK but they get obliterated by Thatcher after their nationalization of the auto industry is a gigantic disaster. history seems to repeat itself, huh?
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Feb 17, 2017 20:52
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see this is why i like theory and liberation theology/buddhology (not exactly a thing but let's ignore that for now). you don't have to worry about how these ideas are actually implemented you just have to theorize the ideals for society and leave it to someone else to work out this is partially why leftism tends to fail; we get too entrenched in ivory tower academic exercises and forget that without praxis our theories are useless. at best our ideas are taken as good ideals for a nation to live up to, at worst they are implemented wholesale without regard for the fact that we failed to describe the means by which a nation should be built up and governed by said principles
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Feb 17, 2017 21:02
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 Latin is important, everybody! 
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Feb 17, 2017 21:42
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System Metternich posted:
Heresy, as easy as a diphthong.
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Feb 17, 2017 22:15
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Man it's weird seeing how the ecology of the far right / fascism has evolved since I got out. It's still recognizable -- particularly the lower right corner in the author's graph; there used to be a lot of tiny racist groups that recruited under the guise of being futurists -- but a lot of the groups that connect one quadrant to the others are much newer.
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Feb 17, 2017 22:27
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and look on the bright side, under bannon it's going to be countercultural and edgy to believe in the brotherhood and sisterhood of all humanity, humble acts of goodness, etc
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 22:52
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HEY GAIL posted:why were you able to escape The persistent influence of (and desire to be accepted by) my much more left-leaning peers. I was in drama club in high school which kind of set the stage for it even if it didn't get through to me consciously, and then I went to a tiny liberal arts college that used to be women-only but had only just gone co-ed, so all of my friends were righteously angry feminists, because 99% of the student body were righteously angry feminists. Also, I kind of lucked out in terms of my family having a very idiosyncratic version of their ideology. My father was a Holocaust denier, so his main thing was that Hitler and Germany's good names were being dragged through the mud unfairly, not "all Jews deserved to die." He used to talk about a future race war in America as a sad inevitability, and while I was raised to think of gay people as weird and deviant, we had a family friend who was transgender and they treated her status as totally unremarkable and barely worth mentioning. ("That's Lydia, she talks to crows and used to be a man.") My father's been terminally ill for quite some time, and when I went down to visit him in January it was really depressing seeing how far he'd gone from being horribly wrong but still largely thinking for himself to repeating Breitbart verbatim and being basically impossible to engage with. Or maybe time has just changed my perspective, I don't know. He passed away a few days ago and I'm still processing the extent to which I resent him for the harm his beliefs did to others (and to my own development as a young person), pity him for his self-inflicted exile from the community he lived in for decades, and admire him for his sense of humor in the face of death. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 23:14
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For my two cents, I got out of my classical Southern Baptist ultra-conservative world view (I unironically told more than one person "you're intolerant for not tolerating my intolerance") when I ended up making friends who were LGBT, Muslim, and Hispanic. Seeing how those arguments I grew up mindlessly parroting genuinely hurt people, and that there was no "say the magic words in just the right way and anyone will convert to Southern Baptism on the spot!" like I grew up with my preacher telling me, made me seriously look at how I viewed the world. I still regret all the people I must have hurt - not just the people I know I hurt - before I came to that realization.
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Feb 17, 2017 23:25
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The persistent influence of (and desire to be accepted by) my much more left-leaning peers. I was in drama club in high school which kind of set the stage for it even if it didn't get through to me consciously, and then I went to a tiny liberal arts college that used to be women-only but had only just gone co-ed, so all of my friends were righteously angry feminists, because 99% of the student body were righteously angry feminists. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/the-white-flight-of-derek-black/2016/10/15/ed5f906a-8f3b-11e6-a6a3-d50061aa9fae_story.html but the problem with the current crop of neo nazis is that the same people who are radicalizing them online are telling them to hide it. which is also one reason why polling didn't catch them before the election.
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Feb 18, 2017 01:27
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HEY GAIL posted:but the problem with the current crop of neo nazis is that the same people who are radicalizing them online are telling them to hide it. which is also one reason why polling didn't catch them before the election. I mean this is what I was told too, but a teenager who's high on the idea that he's on the right side of an apocalyptic reckoning isn't going to be able to hide it all that well.
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Feb 18, 2017 01:38
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I mean this is what I was told too, but a teenager who's high on the idea that he's on the right side of an apocalyptic reckoning isn't going to be able to hide it all that well.
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Feb 18, 2017 01:44
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HEY GAIL posted:how do you think we can fight back now? bearing in mind that these people are thick on the ground in the new administration--not only Bannon, but Miller, Anton, etc The biggest thing I can think of is fight tooth and nail for control of public education, and for public education to exist and be funded at all, and to send as many people as possible on to college -- both for the sheer value of education in teaching people how to think critically, and for the exposure to different ways of thinking that weakens any brittle, dogmatic belief system.
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Feb 18, 2017 01:53
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The biggest thing I can think of is fight tooth and nail for control of public education, and for public education to exist and be funded at all, and to send as many people as possible on to college -- both for the sheer value of education in teaching people how to think critically, and for the exposure to different ways of thinking that weakens any brittle, dogmatic belief system. too late
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Feb 18, 2017 01:56
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Cythereal posted:For my two cents, I got out of my classical Southern Baptist ultra-conservative world view (I unironically told more than one person "you're intolerant for not tolerating my intolerance") when I ended up making friends who were LGBT, Muslim, and Hispanic. Seeing how those arguments I grew up mindlessly parroting genuinely hurt people, and that there was no "say the magic words in just the right way and anyone will convert to Southern Baptism on the spot!" like I grew up with my preacher telling me, made me seriously look at how I viewed the world. Tuxedo Catfish posted:The persistent influence of (and desire to be accepted by) my much more left-leaning peers. loving exactly. Fascism isn't a point of view, or an alternative interpretation of facts. It's a mind virus, like 911 trutherism, young earth creationism, or flat earthism. You can't rid people of fascism by debating them, any more than you can convince a conspiracy theorist that the moon landings were real just through argument. You have to offer people a choice: come and live in the real world with us, or stay in the fantasy world with your fascist friends. Then you hope they'll look at you, and at their fascist friends, and decide to come with you. To drag this thread back to Christianity (not that what you've been talking about isn't very loving relevant) this is the only effective way to evangelise. Live in the world as a Christian, and hope that the way you live encourages others to join you.
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Feb 18, 2017 03:02
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i got this from the unnerving stories thread, some good news for once: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-foster-father-sick-children-2017-story.html this dude does not worship christ, but he is living in blessedness
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Feb 18, 2017 03:52
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Christianity thread, I am sorry to divert from the depressing reality of modern politics, but I'd like to ask a rather basic Lutheranism noob question. I have never read the Book of Concord, so I figured I should. Is there any recommended way of studying this book, or is a cover-to-cover reading the way to go? Thanks!
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Feb 18, 2017 07:57
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cerror posted:Christianity thread, I am sorry to divert from the depressing reality of modern politics, but I'd like to ask a rather basic Lutheranism noob question. I have never read the Book of Concord, so I figured I should. Is there any recommended way of studying this book, or is a cover-to-cover reading the way to go? Thanks! When a Lutheran gets a chance they can give you a fuller answer, but I think I can help you a bit from the point of view of how to learn/teach theology. Reading through some of the book, at least the one I found online, it's definitely a product of it's time in that it makes references to ideas and people that I had never heard before, though I am Catholic so that might be part of it. Anyway, the text is old enough that I would heartily recommend either a contemporary commentary or a book that discusses it's contents in a summarily way with historical and theological explanations throughout. Edit: Perhaps something like this? Thirteen Orphans fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Feb 18, 2017 |
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Feb 18, 2017 11:43
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http://harpers.org/archive/2017/03/family-values-3/?single=1quote:W.C.F. claims to disavow violence, but the rhetoric in Tbilisi suggests some disagreements on the subject of killing. In a speech, Father Josiah quotes from Islamic scripture: “Kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.” This is not exactly a call to action — he is merely making the (dubious) point that the sacred texts of all the Abrahamic religions and Buddhism contain prohibitions against homosexuality. But people clap. Not a lot of people — from the sound of it, more than twenty and fewer than a hundred. quote:“Do you see a way for you and me to live in the same society?” I tell him I’ll forfeit the right to marriage — I am ambivalent about it anyway. But I do have children, and I will not let anyone take them away from me. To show that I have an open mind, I’ll even agree to put up with harassment in public restrooms, as I have for the past thirty-five years. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Feb 18, 2017 |
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Feb 18, 2017 11:50
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icantfindaname posted:you also have to remember outside of Scandanavia the left parties weren't enormously successful in Europe either. And in scandinavia, all but one or two left parties have moved hard right to ultra-right wing economic policies and state racism because they think that's where the votes are, rolling back our welfare states and blaming foreigners in the process. Basically it's a circus show, with the neo-fascist parties leading the animals around the circuit.
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Feb 18, 2017 14:00
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cerror posted:Christianity thread, I am sorry to divert from the depressing reality of modern politics, but I'd like to ask a rather basic Lutheranism noob question. I have never read the Book of Concord, so I figured I should. Is there any recommended way of studying this book, or is a cover-to-cover reading the way to go? Thanks! I've only read the Finnish translation of the Book of Concord and only once in full but my personal recommendation would be to most of all take your time. The language is at, times, old and complicated. Like 13 orphans typed earlier, the book is also written largely as a reply for various issues in Europe 500 years ago so much of it is not very relevant or even useful for today's Christian. That caveat out of the way, do read the Catechism and the Augsburg Confession for some really solid stuff. Personally I would recommend skimming a history book about that period of history before delving into most of the other books, just to get into the context. E: By taking your time I mean chewing on what you've read, not rushing to read too much on one go. Valiantman fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Feb 18, 2017 |
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Feb 18, 2017 20:40
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Father Josiah is a Calvinist to Orthodox convert. Dr. Scott Hahn is a Calvinist to Catholic convert. (he's not part of WCF and doesn't get racial with it but he says the same things, just codes it in softer language.) WTF is Brian Brown's excuse, that guy was a Quaker. Friend definitely does *not* speak my mind.
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Feb 19, 2017 01:38
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The Phlegmatist posted:WTF is Brian Brown's excuse, that guy was a Quaker. Friend definitely does *not* speak my mind. Probably the same way Nixon was a Quaker. There was a massive split in the Quaker movement where Liberal Friends and Conservative Friends split from Evangelical Friends. The former two believe in continuing revelation and hold unprogrammed worship, whereas the latter merged with Evangelical Protestant culture.
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Feb 19, 2017 02:02
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Huh, well looks like Nixon went to Whittier College too, that's a hell of an alum. Still, Brown grew up in Whittier and the meeting there is open and affirming. And then went to Whittier College. I guess he got possessed by the ghost of Tricky Dick at some point.
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Feb 19, 2017 02:21
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you know who else is heavily quaker-influenced? current emperor of japan who was the worst quaker though? also are there any current quakers in the house? arsenic lupin is a fellow traveler, and the phlegmatist likes them and has hung out with them, but i mean actual quakers HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Feb 19, 2017 |
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Feb 19, 2017 03:08
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HEY GAIL posted:nvm yeah also if you're european you might not be able to get this, also pbs is likely being defunded so we won't get this soon either
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Feb 19, 2017 03:27
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Personally, I do grow a bit tired of continually being told to "take the high ground". The obvious rejoinder to that is "why?" because it doesn't seem to produce great results if we do.
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Feb 19, 2017 13:00
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Who is "we" and what is "the high ground"?
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Feb 19, 2017 13:05
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my dad posted:Who is "we" and what is "the high ground"? The left/ liberal ideas in general and The moral high ground as it were. "Not calling people names because they believe provably wrong stuff"/"Calling out my voting for Trump makes me feel threatened!" The whole idea that you have to be nice to people who believe torture works is one of the big ones for me personally, because it tends to come across as more than a little hypocritical. Though this is probably the wrong thread for this. Sorry to bring it up again. I respect the guy going and trying to reason with the KKK, though I can't see the video so I can't comment too specifically I am afraid, but I am unsure if that idea can be applied to a larger frame helpfully. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Feb 19, 2017 |
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Feb 19, 2017 16:52
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Josef bugman posted:Personally, I do grow a bit tired of continually being told to "take the high ground". The obvious rejoinder to that is "why?" because it doesn't seem to produce great results if we do. the_mission_eucharistic_processsion.mp4
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Feb 19, 2017 17:41
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StashAugustine posted:the_mission_eucharistic_processsion.mp4 Dunno what "The Mission" is, but funny that you should say "procession"!  The Syro-Malabar Catholic Church of St Mary in Kuravilangad. Our Indian chaplains never did anything like this 
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Feb 19, 2017 17:57
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System Metternich posted:Dunno what "The Mission" is, but funny that you should say "procession"! Love how the photo unfolds as you scroll down. Are those real elephants?
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Feb 19, 2017 18:22
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Mr Enderby posted:It's a mind virus, like 911 trutherism, young earth creationism, or flat earthism. What about the idea that a particular one of several apocalyptic Jewish preachers in Roman-occupied Judea was actually a deity?
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Feb 19, 2017 19:52
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Josef bugman posted:Personally, I do grow a bit tired of continually being told to "take the high ground". The obvious rejoinder to that is "why?" because it doesn't seem to produce great results if we do. The documentary does touch on that; like he speaks with some BLM activists and they basically hate his guts for working within the framework of a flawed system, and the new crowd of racists seems much less willing to change their minds. He managed to dig up some Kinists who think that God made the white race better than all the rest 'cause...duh it says that in the Bible. Remember the Tower of Babel? They're obviously not really worth engaging in dialogue with because they're just insane and will never change their views. But I do give the guy some credit for his patience; for a black man to speak to a self-described white nationalist who compares himself favorably to MLK is...well, it takes a lot of fortitude to remain amicable in that situation.
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Feb 19, 2017 20:29
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StashAugustine posted:the_mission_eucharistic_processsion.mp4 Sorry but could I ask for clarification? I don't quite understand. Sorry! The Phlegmatist posted:The documentary does touch on that; like he speaks with some BLM activists and they basically hate his guts for working within the framework of a flawed system, and the new crowd of racists seems much less willing to change their minds. He managed to dig up some Kinists who think that God made the white race better than all the rest 'cause...duh it says that in the Bible. Remember the Tower of Babel? They're obviously not really worth engaging in dialogue with because they're just insane and will never change their views. Okay, that sounds interesting. Sorry I couldn't see the vid to comment. I mean there is also the fact that Older people may be set in their ways but, at least in the case of a large number of them, have seen a bit of the world. The younger ones are just internet shut ins with access to guns and a self-loathing that would make most people go completely mental.
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Feb 19, 2017 20:44
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Yeah, being an internet shut-in plays a huge role in this. For example when I was growing up there was a huge Protestant/Catholic divide in my town. It wasn't uncommon to hear people say "whew, yeah, all Catholics are certainly going to hell. Well, except the two that I work with, I know they're devout and they love Jesus." The cognitive dissonance of "all members of this group are X except the ones I personally know" never seemed to affect them. And when you're an internet shut-in you have the double whammy of not actually knowing a whole lot of people in real life and also being able to be incredibly selective in the online friends that you do have. There's no real impetus to actually change your viewpoint, so you get black-or-white thinking with no friends around to actually knock some sense into you.
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Feb 19, 2017 20:53
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Josef bugman posted:Sorry but could I ask for clarification? I don't quite understand. Sorry! The Mission is a movie (and an extremely good one) about Jesuit missions in South America during the Spanish colonization. Jeremy Irons plays Father Gabriel, a missionary who works with the indigenous people and keeps them safe from European slave traders on the local mission. Robert de Niro plays Rodrigo, a mercenary slaver who repents and joins the Jesuits in helping the natives. The second half of the movie deals with the Spanish ceding the mission territories to the Portuguese, who demand the Jesuits leave their missions so their slave traders can capture the natives. The movie presents a conflict between resistance and pacifism. Rodrigo reverts to his mercenary ways and leads the people of the tribe in an uprising against the Spanish, but Gabriel sticks to his Christian pacifism and leads the natives in prayer at the mission. The uprising fails, and as Rodrigo's character dies, he sees Gabriel leading the people in a Eucharistic procession out of the mission as the Spanish infantry guns them down.
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Feb 19, 2017 20:53
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Thanks to everyone who shared favourite books, verse, passages and other scripture, by the way. It is both interesting and beautiful how many different ways there is to approach and experience the divine, I feel. I like hearing about the unique way in which people have found God or religion, or simply something greater than themselves. If people are willing to share personal stories about how they've found God, or their religion or denomination in particular, then I'd like to hear any personal stories.
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Feb 19, 2017 21:03
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Hello Sailor posted:What about the idea that a particular one of several apocalyptic Jewish preachers in Roman-occupied Judea was actually a deity? What about the idea that all human beings are equal and have inherent rights?
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Feb 19, 2017 21:09
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