|
Obama ran on dronestriking weddings he was basically a 3rd Bush
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 03:12 |
|
|
Crowsbeak posted:Platform doesn't mean poo poo it's who us pushing it and how authentic they are. Yeah, honestly as much as our platform seems good, I never felt any of that platform in whatever I heard about hillary. Honestly, she could have probably drowned out the e-mail bullshit if she had started saying really leftward stuff.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:04
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:Her platform was, not her campaign, which is why she failed. Her campaign advocated for two huge new entitlement programs dude.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:05
|
|
|
thechosenone posted:Wasn't it hope and change? Keep in mind he was pushed to run because of his '04 DNC "no red America or blue America" speech
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:05
|
|
|
thechosenone posted:Yeah, honestly as much as our platform seems good, I never felt any of that platform in whatever I heard about hillary. Honestly, she could have probably drowned out the e-mail bullshit if she had started saying really leftward stuff. "I want to make childcare universal and education free" is apparently not good enough for y'all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:06
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:This undermines the rest of your argument. If the enthusiasm problem wasn't about policy, and instead was about flawed expectations, why would we think that changing policy is necessary to increase enthusiasm?  I'm having a lot of trouble following your logic; you're making sudden leaps that don't follow at all from what you're responding to.Democratic voter enthusiasm got beat the gently caress up from multiple angles. It's not an either-or. The Democrats ran a candidate that was popularly viewed, thanks to decades of messaging from the right wing, as a lying shill willing to triangulate her personal politics based on which way the wind is blowing. She opposed the same policies in the primary that she ended up adopting when she was nominated, which did her public image absolutely no loving favors. (Yes, Hillary adopting the Bernie platform is a good thing. I am not saying that it is a bad thing.) And on top of that, HuffPo is reporting Hillary has a 99% chance of winning, so why hold your nose and vote for this person when she's going to win anyway? After all, she'll just go back to her corporatist policies when elected and not follow through on the platform, right? ^^ I do not personally believe this, I am describing the electorate reaction to the campaign. Optics matter.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:07
|
|
|
Fulchrum posted:Because [insert socialist purity group #254 here] is healthy and active and gonna make huge gains in 2018 guys, this is the time! They just doubled in size today, and if qe get two more members well have doubled again. If that rate keep a up we'll totally get a seat somewhere in 2018! Well then let's hear your solution if you think we're all wrong. Btw are you going to still deny that red states passed pro worker and anti corruption referendums.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:08
|
|
|
SKULL.GIF posted:
I bolded the part that's not true. She disagreed with his specific policy proposals, not the basic idea behind them. This is why I keep bringing Medicare-for-all-up. Free College was another example. She didn't say "free college is bad and we shouldn't do that," she said "your specific policy proposal is not great and it does not seem workable." Then in the general she worked with Bernie to refine both of their policy proposals on free college to be better. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Feb 19, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:09
|
|
|
icantfindaname posted:You do realize that in an electoral democracy you don't win by scolding voters as if they're children, right? President Trump is living proof that you're wrong about this.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:09
|
|
|
SKULL.GIF posted:
fwiw after her convention speech i felt there was a decent chance of her carrying most of the platform out. shame about november tho
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:10
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:"I want to make childcare universal and education free" is apparently not good enough for y'all. Was she really pushing it that hard?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:10
|
|
|
WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Keep in mind he was pushed to run because of his '04 DNC "no red America or blue America" speech But he still ran on hope and change?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:11
|
|
|
thechosenone posted:Was she really pushing it that hard? She talked about it all the loving time.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:12
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:She talked about it all the loving time. Really? because all I heard was trump trump trump, everything's great, gaffe, apologetic words about e-mails. I'm not joking, she may have said a few things like what your talking about, but she didn't really focus on it at all, instead trying to push how bad trump was.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:13
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:"I want to make childcare universal and education free" is apparently not good enough for y'all. Childcare, which costs more than college, and for which loans and grants aren't available
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:14
|
|
|
thechosenone posted:Really? because all I heard was trump trump trump, everything's great, gaffe, apologetic words about e-mails. She talked about it a whole, whole lot. People just didn't pay attention. thechosenone posted:I'm not joking, she may have said a few things like what your talking about, but she didn't really focus on it at all, instead trying to push how bad trump was. No this is just something you tell yourself.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:14
|
|
|
blackguy32 posted:I am not convinced after the frontman of their movement basically stuck his foot in his mouth when talking about Identity politics shortly after the election. He focused on his economic message and said that it wasn't enough for a candidate to be a woman or black. But what does he know? Under his logic, we would have never had Barack Obama as President. Something that was immensely important to a lot of minorities. I honestly believe it is a tad optimistic, because race is a great way to fracture coalitions. It has happened before with the New Deal coalition, and the populist movement. The movement is expanding past Bernie, we just haven't found a better word to describe them yet. Everyone I've spoken to who's part of the leftist resurgence is primarily concerned with stopping Trump and getting representatives in government that will actually benefit and protect all people, economic and social issues alike. (Frankly, I don't like "economic and social", they're one and the same really. Black people being left behind economically is a social issue. Muslims being discriminated against is an economic issue. I think a bunch of the Sanders supporters are starting to come to realize this, but again, I tend towards optimism.) I agree that Bernie fumbled on racial issues several times. But I also, and I will stand by this, agree that gender or race is absolutely not a sufficient reason for someone to be a candidate. Look at people like Ben Carson or David Clarke for examples. But yes, it is very important that we have representatives from each racial and minority group. Such as... Keith Ellison  I also agree that racial differences splitting the movement is a danger that we should watch against, but for now I think it's "safe" because of how terrible Trump is and how blatant his attacks on Muslims and immigrants are. The real concern is for if/when we take back power -- that's when we'll have to focus on keeping everyone on the same message.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:15
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:She talked about it a whole, whole lot. People just didn't pay attention. When did she talk about it? can you give me a few links?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:15
|
|
|
Evil Fluffy posted:President Trump is living proof that you're wrong about this. That's not what Trump did at all though?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:15
|
|
|
thechosenone posted:But he still ran on hope and change? These are bland platitudes, not a leftist agenda. SKULL.GIF posted:
You just claimed enthusiasm for Hillary took a huge hit because of false expectations of a landslide victory. Had that not occurred, she would have won handily. Therefore it's not necessary to radically change our policy agenda to fix an enthusiasm problem, because the enthusiasm problem was exogenous. BI NOW GAY LATER posted:She talked about it a whole, whole lot. People just didn't pay attention. Leftism cannot fail, it can only be failed. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Feb 19, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:16
|
|
|
The fact is the far left is much more likely to say gently caress you and not vote for ideological reasons than the center, so the party basically cannot afford not to do everything they can to mollify them. If they take an oppositional stance and tell the far left to gently caress off they will lose and you'll get permanent Republican rule. It doesn't matter how much sneering, open contempt you have for Bernie Bros and lefties and people who don't respect the meritocracy and the business of boring hard boards or whatever, those are the simple facts
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:19
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:These are bland platitudes, not a leftist agenda. and yet from how I experienced Hillary's campaign, It seems like she ran on the opposite, and seemed to fail.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:20
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:She talked about it a whole, whole lot. People just didn't pay attention. the problem was that they made trump the focal point of the election. yes she explained her policies on stump speeches and sometimes during the debates but the main message put forward in campaign ads and other media appearances was "donald trump is an insane lunatic that cannot be trusted with the presidency." and while by all accounts this should have loving worked it didn't. meanwhile trump boiled his campaign down to "wall, jobs, ban" which while reprehensible apparently resonated better than "i'm not trump"
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:21
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:the problem was that they made trump the focal point of the election. yes she explained her policies on stump speeches and sometimes during the debates but the main message put forward in campaign ads and other media appearances was "donald trump is an insane lunatic that cannot be trusted with the presidency." and while by all accounts this should have loving worked it didn't. meanwhile trump boiled his campaign down to "wall, jobs, ban" which while reprehensible apparently resonated better than "i'm not trump" that's effectively different from "she never talked about it and she didn't want it" dude.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:22
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:that's effectively different from "she never talked about it and she didn't want it" dude. well that's his argument not mine. but messaging was a gigantic problem for the hillary campaign
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:23
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:that's effectively different from "she never talked about it and she didn't want it" dude. So then did she talk about it a whole bunch compared to trump?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:24
|
|
|
All these crybaby leftists that didnt go to hillary's website
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:24
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:well that's his argument not mine. but messaging was a gigantic problem for the hillary campaign Yeah, she really just wanted to use trump as a cudgel, but when you think about it, she should have realized the person who is best at defaming trump is trump, and let him do that directly.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:25
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I bolded the part that's not true. She specifically said in an early debate she didnt believe in free college, that everyone should have some "skin in the game" and that on top of it Bernie's plan would just subsidize Donald Trump's kids Then Bernie won some states
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:25
|
|
|
Like, she ran on a committed platform of expanding the welfare state. She talked about both free college and free child care in the debates. She talked about them on the campaign trail.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:26
|
|
|
thechosenone posted:and yet from how I experienced Hillary's campaign, It seems like she ran on the opposite, and seemed to fail. Did you experience the campaign from inside a toxic echo-chamber of jilted Bernouts? Maybe you didn't hear what she was actually saying because you heard it all in democrat voice? icantfindaname posted:The fact is the far left is much more likely to say gently caress you and not vote for ideological reasons than the center, so the party basically cannot afford not to do everything they can to mollify them. If they take an oppositional stance and tell the far left to gently caress off they will lose and you'll get permanent Republican rule. It doesn't matter how much sneering, open contempt you have for Bernie Bros and lefties and people who don't respect the meritocracy and the business of boring hard boards or whatever, those are the simple facts Kilroy posted:Really it does seem to me that it's the "moderates" who are more likely to jump ship and vote 3rd party, or Republican, or not at all, than the leftists. And for what it's worth that makes more sense intuitively as well. Seems like we might need actual data, and not pithy assertions, to figure this out.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:26
|
|
|
Amused to Death posted:She specifically said in an early debate she didnt believe in free college, that everyone should have some "skin in the game" and that on top of it Bernie's plan would just subsidize Donald Trump's kids She introduced her free college platform in Fall 2015.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:26
|
|
|
Calibanibal posted:All these crybaby leftists that didnt go to hillary's website So are we walking back from saying she talked about it more than trump?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:26
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:She introduced her free college platform in Fall 2015. Interesting. Would have been nice to hear about it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:27
|
|
|
thechosenone posted:Interesting. Would have been nice to hear about it. she gave a huge speech on it
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:27
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:she gave a huge speech on it Interesting, would have been nice to hear about it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:30
|
|
|
Free college was featured prominently on her website
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:31
|
|
|
thechosenone posted:Interesting, would have been nice to hear about it. Okay, so you're hopeless.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:31
|
|
|
thechosenone posted:Interesting, would have been nice to hear about it. JeffersonClay posted:Maybe you didn't hear what she was actually saying because you heard it all in democrat voice?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 03:12 |
|
|
Calibanibal posted:Free college was featured prominently on her website Interesting, would have been nice to hear about it in the day to day campaign instead of trump stuff.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:31
|
|