|
It's also possible for a show to devote more than two minutes post-credits to deal with the aftermath of the climactic battle.
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 16:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 06:04 |
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:This really isn't going to be a thing. We've seen what Mobile Armors are, and they're not some weapon to be commanded because they're independent AI units with a mandate of Kill All Humans. More importantly, they'd be borderline useless. Everyone uses Nano-laminate armor, so their main weapon's useless against everything they might be thrown against, and a fleet's worth of shipboard cannons would just turn even multiple Hashmals to scrap. While I agree that McGillis isn't going to whip out a super secret hidden fleet of mobile armors, I think you underestimate how insanely lethal they have been portrayed as, regardless of if their main beam weapon works against nanolaminate or not. That single Hashmal was only barely matched and defeated by Mikazuki pushing the Barbatos to full power against it, and even then it totaled the Barbatos and nearly killed Mikazuki in the process - that's the best known pilot in the setting pushing the strongest known mobile suit to its maximum potential. A theoretical group of fresh and maintained mobile armors and their army of plumas would pretty much effortlessly butcher any number of grunt mobile suit pilots, and it has been well established in the series that battleships stripped of mobile suit cover are effectively sitting ducks against enemy mobile suits or mobile suit like objects. The beam weapon is effectively a terror weapon used to slaughter civilians at this point. The real danger is in them simply ripping you apart.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 16:54
|
|
|
I....I am not ready for any of the next few episodes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 17:15
|
|
|
Lemon-Lime posted:It's also possible for a show to devote more than two minutes post-credits to deal with the aftermath of the climactic battle. I'd buy that if we had less episodes, but I don't believe there's ever been a single fleet engagement in Gundam that lasted more than two or three episodes, let alone one this simple. 3/4 episodes of epilogue with most of the cast dead seems a bit much. As for the Mobile Armours, McGillis has the motive and the means. He wants to burn down the world that wronged him and bring back the purifying violence of the Calamity War, and he has enough access to Gjallarhorn's files to know where still-activatable MAs might potentially be. They'd also be extremely useful assets for a number of reasons. They go for the highest concentration of humans, and the Arianrhod Fleet outnumbers his forces. They target population centres, requiring anyone with the concern for human life that he lacks to split their forces. Finally, they're phenomenally dangerous killing machines. We've met a Hashmal, the fourth most dangerous type of Mobile Armour. It had the agility and speed of a mobile suit, the armour of a warship, and enough raw power to tear its way through most of the solar system's best pilots before being brought down by one of the few remaining suits specifically designed to kill it... after they separated it from its army of self-replicating drones. There are only three suits that can reliably solo Hashmallim, discounting Pluma interference - the Lupus Rex, the Kimaris Vidar, and the Flauros with Dainsleifs loaded - and only the Vidar is capable of coming back for another go after taking down the first one, because Mika will be a vegetable and the Flauros will be out of ammo. Their lack of ranged firepower is also meaningless - is the Lupus not dangerous in fleet engagements because it lacks any ranged weapons that can hurt a battleship? Now imagine that McGillis knows where to find a half-dozen Hashmallim, a couple of Ophanim, or - god help us - one of the Chayot ha Kodesh. The solar system would be fuuucked.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 17:48
|
|
|
Could you provide a link listing the various types of Mobile Armor in the setting as I would love to see just how much more deadly they could make the drat things.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 17:58
|
|
|
Hunt11 posted:Could you provide a link listing the various types of Mobile Armor in the setting as I would love to see just how much more deadly they could make the drat things. The Hashmal is the only one we know of so far.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 18:02
|
|
|
The episode's theme has to be "raise your flag," cause I'm sitting here worrying about who's not coming back next episode, and whether or not they're a mobile suit pilot or not. Significant others are the first to go!
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 18:09
|
|
|
Droyer posted:The Hashmal is the only one we know of so far. But if they're sticking with the theme naming, Hashmallim are the fourth most powerful angels after (in ascending order) Erelim, Ophanim, and the Chayot Ha Kodesh, the four Holy Living Ones who serve as God's thronebearers. Seeing as they went in deep with the Lesser Key of Solomon for the Gundams, bringing in some Kabbalah for the MAs seems a fair guess.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 18:10
|
|
|
Yeah that MA stuff up there is all conjecture with no basis in any information related to the show. That said, given the fact that Hashmal was individually named, it's obvious there were several different types of MA and it wouldn't surprise me if they were unique, like the gundam frames. The real question is why you all think there are a bunch of random MAs lying around for McGillis to activate. Hashmal was clearly an anomaly and was located in a backwater area. Gjallarhorn would be comically ineffective if there were hundreds of MAs just waiting for a mobile suit to get too close to them all over Earth. VVV Pretty much that too. Psycho Landlord fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Feb 19, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:06
|
|
|
Psycho Landlord posted:Yeah that MA stuff up there is all conjecture with no basis in any information related to the show. Also, and I think this is a point that needs to be emphasized: It would be insanely stupid.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:08
|
|
|
I think you're missing the obvious thing, which is that he's giving the surgery to all his loyal troops. He will defeat the federation with his cyber newtypes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:15
|
|
|
Who could have guessed he was a Glemy, and not a Char, this whole time
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:40
|
|
|
Ethiser posted:Who could have guessed he was a Glemy, and not a Char, this whole time This is actually a pretty great realization. Glemy wasn't a colossal dickbag until the last ten-twenty episodes of ZZ. Similarly, McGillis wasn't really a bastard until the last four-five episodes of season 1, and this second season has just been putting that aspect of him under the microscope. Man, he wore the mask and everything. The evil goober.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:44
|
|
|
And I might be mis-remembering Glemy, because I could have sworn he was kind of a joke for the majority of the first half of ZZ.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:45
|
|
|
Another good episode. Hearing McGillis get called "Macky" again just really drove home how hosed up that whole situation is.Shinjobi posted:And I might be mis-remembering Glemy, because I could have sworn he was kind of a joke for the majority of the first half of ZZ.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 21:49
|
|
|
This episode hammered home the limits of McGillis and his worldview. By relying on an ancient relic, he expected to become an absolute king able to dictate to all of Gjallahorn and crush anyone foolish enough to challenge him. This was perfectly encapsulated when he told the Bauduin patriarch that there was no more need for words between them since he would command and they would obey. It's fascinating to watch him live out his childish fantasy of the King who pulled the sword from the stone after witnessing his brilliant manipulations control the show for two-thirds of its run. He can and should be better than this, but he can't let go of his fixation with absolute power. The random side members of the Seven Stars rejecting the question and seeking refuge in neutrality was an amusing wrinkle. It's exactly the kind of petty obstructionism that always confronts absolutists when they try to force their will on the world. Rustal, by contrast, is evidently not much of a public speaker, but has a far more nuanced and subtle approach to leadership. He treats Gaelio as an honoured peer and even asks whether Gaelio will fight, acknowledging the latter's freedom to make his own choices. In his conversation with his 'wayward son' Iok, he gives an eloquent statement of his organic conservatism. Gjallahorn is not defined by the will of its creator, but has evolved over time by the subordination of numerous individuals into a single whole, presented here as natural and harmonious. The irony, of course, is that Rustal is a ruthless pragmatist who will not hesitate to shed innocent blood. There was nothing harmonious about staging a war to weaken McGillis, except by the very tenuous logic that he knew via Gaelio that McGillis was a monster who had to be stopped. Even now, it's difficult for me to determine whether he truly believes in his mission or if he is simply acting to protect his position. Perhaps it doesn't matter either way. Iok is a deeply flawed leader, as Rustal doesn't hesitate to point out. His sole redeeming features are his aristocratic birth and his sincere intentions, but sincerely committing war crimes is not something to be celebrated. Iok's restoration is proof enough of the fact Rustal is not unduly burdened with moral scruples in the pursuit of his goals, as if any proof was needed. Orga mercifully remains the most sympathetic of the four leaders on display here, but he's been cornered by his bad decisions. This episode gave Tekkadan cause to reflect on what we already knew. No one but Orga is capable of considering grand strategy, placing an immense burden on him to lead alone. In return, Tekkadan will follow his orders without doubt, even if it means charging straight into hell. Now that things have come this far, there's precious little for Orga to do besides point Mika at the target and hope for the best. Right now we get to pick our preferred flavour of authoritarian: a would-be monarch, an aristocrat, and a captain with his own aspirations to monarchy. Though I feel a sentimental attachment to both Rustal's team and Tekkadan, it's hard to escape the feeling that everyone in this show deserves each other. I'm not clear on who I am even supposed to be rooting for during this battle, which is a good sign that this isn't the true finale. Lestaki fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Feb 19, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 22:05
|
|
|
The Almiria/McGillis scene is a pretty interesting one to me because it makes me reevaluate his relationship with her. Based on him being so intensely creepy in previous scenes with her it was generally assumed that he was simply manipulating her to secure the Bauduin family's power for his future revolutionary plans, but the scene in this episode makes me suddenly second guess that; given that he's seized the Bael and is now claiming dictatorial power over all of Gjallarhorn to the point where he's actively arresting/restraining other Seven Stars family heads, he doesn't really need Almiria for anything at this point, yet he's still promising to make her happy to the point where he's willing to get stabbed to stop her from hurting herself. That and the fact that he's taking time out of his schedule on the brink of open civil war to see her and have a chat with her makes me believe that he actually does care about her on some super twisted level. Not in the  sort of way, but maybe he sees something of his childhood in her or something.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 22:06
|
|
|
Ethiser posted:Who could have guessed he was a Glemy, and not a Char, this whole time - Mysterious and unpleasant childhood - Minor officer who worked his way up the ranks to lead an attempted coup on the villain faction, who are represented by an older, charismatic cynic with a formidable reputation. - Believes himself to be the heir to the solar system's greatest warlord. - A talented liar and manipulator who's so superficially friendly to so many people that it's near-impossible to judge his true morals and motives. - Kind of a manchild, with silly, romantic obsessions. - Deeply unhealthy relationship with a purple-haired girl. - Deeply unhealthy relationship with a heroic character's underaged sister. - Way too fond of cyborgs. - Way too fond of giant death machines. - Way too fond of prepubescent girls. Dang. Checks out.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 22:08
|
|
|
Kanos posted:The Almiria/McGillis scene is a pretty interesting one to me because it makes me reevaluate his relationship with her. Based on him being so intensely creepy in previous scenes with her it was generally assumed that he was simply manipulating her to secure the Bauduin family's power for his future revolutionary plans, but the scene in this episode makes me suddenly second guess that; given that he's seized the Bael and is now claiming dictatorial power over all of Gjallarhorn to the point where he's actively arresting/restraining other Seven Stars family heads, he doesn't really need Almiria for anything at this point, yet he's still promising to make her happy to the point where he's willing to get stabbed to stop her from hurting herself. That and the fact that he's taking time out of his schedule on the brink of open civil war to see her and have a chat with her makes me believe that he actually does care about her on some super twisted level. Not in the His exchange with her dad shortly beforehand made me draw the opposite conclusion. He's heavily outnumbered, the other families aren't rising in his support, and literally the only thing keeping the Bauduins from openly moving against him is his marriage to Almiria. She's tied to enemies he cannot afford to fight at the moment, so he needs to treat her nice, keep her alive, and give them reason to hesitate until he's done with the Arianrhod Fleet and can bring his full might down upon them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 22:13
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:His exchange with her dad shortly beforehand made me draw the opposite conclusion. He's heavily outnumbered, the other families aren't rising in his support, and literally the only thing keeping the Bauduins from openly moving against him is his marriage to Almiria. She's tied to enemies he cannot afford to fight at the moment, so he needs to treat her nice, keep her alive, and give them reason to hesitate until he's done with the Arianrhod Fleet and can bring his full might down upon them. He doesn't need to treat her nicely to accomplish that goal, though. Simply having her hostage is easily sufficient for that purpose; it's not like Gallus Bauduin is going to suddenly change his mind about McGillis being a backstabbing traitor if Almiria tells him that Macky is a really nice guy at this point. The fact that he's bothering to make the effort suggests that he gives a poo poo about her on some level.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 22:23
|
|
|
It really does make sense why Mcgilles likes Mikazuki so much. In his own way he is almost or as broken as Mika.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 22:29
|
|
|
They're both completely hosed in the head but the reason McGillis respects Mika and Orga is because he believes power is absolutely everything, and Mika is a powerful pilot in a powerful mech who is absolutely loyal to Orga.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 22:31
|
|
|
Lestaki posted:Orga mercifully remains the most sympathetic of the four leaders on display here, but he's been cornered by his bad decisions. This episode gave Tekkadan cause to reflect on what we already knew. No one but Orga is capable of considering grand strategy, placing an immense burden on him to lead alone. In return, Tekkadan will follow his orders without doubt, even if it means charging straight into hell. Now that things have come this far, there's precious little for Orga to do besides point Mika at the target and hope for the best. It's not that the rest of Tekkadan are incapable of grand strategy, it's that none of them bother to put any effort into it. the scene with Eugene and Shino shows it best. Eugene brings up some his thoughts on the situation, Shino waves them away, and Eugene decides to put them aside. We have no idea if any members of Tekkadan other than Orga have good leadership qualities at that level, because everyone is content to follow Orga's lead.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 22:48
|
|
|
I really want Orga to survive, at the very least. Dude has earned some time off in the Caribbean or something, the stress is ridiculous.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 22:54
|
|
|
Lestaki posted:This episode hammered home the limits of McGillis and his worldview. By relying on an ancient relic, he expected to become an absolute king able to dictate to all of Gjallahorn and crush anyone foolish enough to challenge him. This was perfectly encapsulated when he told the Bauduin patriarch that there was no more need for words between them since he would command and they would obey. It's fascinating to watch him live out his childish fantasy of the King who pulled the sword from the stone after witnessing his brilliant manipulations control the show for two-thirds of its run. He can and should be better than this, but he can't let go of his fixation with absolute power. The random side members of the Seven Stars rejecting the question and seeking refuge in neutrality was an amusing wrinkle. It's exactly the kind of petty obstructionism that always confronts absolutists when they try to force their will on the world. I really don't think he expected everyone to bow down and worship him because he controls Bael. He even says as much when talking with Orga. Going up against Rustal looks like it was always expected. Bael doesn't win him the keys to the kingdom in a single fell swoop, but it gives him a fighting chance. The other leaders wouldn't have any reason to remain neutral during this fight if he didn't have the fig leaf that Bael provides, and his posession of Bael gives his followers a feeling of righteous purpose which is going to help morale, something you desperately need when you're outnumbered two to one. I mean I'm sure there is some part of him that hoped it would work, but he makes it pretty clear that this isn't his only card to play.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 23:02
|
|
|
Kanos posted:He doesn't need to treat her nicely to accomplish that goal, though. Simply having her hostage is easily sufficient for that purpose; it's not like Gallus Bauduin is going to suddenly change his mind about McGillis being a backstabbing traitor if Almiria tells him that Macky is a really nice guy at this point. The fact that he's bothering to make the effort suggests that he gives a poo poo about her on some level. He's trying to present himself as an acceptable alternative to Gaelio by showing that he can take care of the Bauduin family. 'I am also your son'. The armed guards are the stick, Almiria being happy and safe is the carrot. It's either deeply cynical or deeply naive - and with Earth aristocracy politics being as they are, I'm genuinely not sure which it is.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 23:24
|
|
|
I'm late and saw episode 43 this week, but man this show is really good and making me wonder who to root for. Vidar is completely justified in wanting to take McGillis down as he's sociopath who only cares about power. On the other hand, he's defending a broken system and being used by the powers that be. McGillis wanting to take down Gjallhorn is also justifiable, and who knows, he may be able to make a better system out of it. But he may be so hosed up that he's fundamentally incapable of making such a system. This show is some good gundam.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 23:29
|
|
|
It's been a while since the main gundam is just a big beatstick instead of the be-all end-all solution to all the problems. Especially compared to literal solution, Gundam Quantum.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 23:33
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:He's trying to present himself as an acceptable alternative to Gaelio by showing that he can take care of the Bauduin family. 'I am also your son'. The armed guards are the stick, Almiria being happy and safe is the carrot. It's either deeply cynical or deeply naive - and with Earth aristocracy politics being as they are, I'm genuinely not sure which it is. Could be both. Probably is both, honestly. McGillis doesn't think of things in the same way as most people, so his obvious answers to problems aren't the same as theirs, and the same is true of his complicated problems. Moving on to the other side, Rustal's got a Grand Inquisitor moment this episode, doesn't he? The church no longer needs its founder, the religion is best off without its messiah. He's not just rejecting an Agnika who'd choose McGillis, he's rejecting anyone who would destroy what 300 years have built. Interesting little conflict here.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2017 23:42
|
|
|
That extra insight into Rustal was nice. He's still poo poo and I welcome his mutual annihilation with McGillis, but still, interesting. I just really didn't want Tekkadan pulled further down than they already were but I guess that's not happening. Then again, maybe I should be glad that their road of murdering/getting murdered is going to be cut short by all these death flags, but I had hope that eventually Orga would realize "going forwards" like that was always going to cost too much in the end.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2017 00:09
|
|
|
I appreciated that the end of episode confession scene was done in the most Mika way possible while still being a cute start to being open about their feelings. Hope it doesn't end in crushing agony in the next couple episodes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2017 00:35
|
|
|
If Atra dies I'm gonna burn down a orphanage...
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2017 00:51
|
|
|
Kanos posted:The Almiria/McGillis scene is a pretty interesting one to me because it makes me reevaluate his relationship with her. Based on him being so intensely creepy in previous scenes with her it was generally assumed that he was simply manipulating her to secure the Bauduin family's power for his future revolutionary plans, but the scene in this episode makes me suddenly second guess that; given that he's seized the Bael and is now claiming dictatorial power over all of Gjallarhorn to the point where he's actively arresting/restraining other Seven Stars family heads, he doesn't really need Almiria for anything at this point, yet he's still promising to make her happy to the point where he's willing to get stabbed to stop her from hurting herself. That and the fact that he's taking time out of his schedule on the brink of open civil war to see her and have a chat with her makes me believe that he actually does care about her on some super twisted level. Not in the To him, a child like Almiria isnt a political piece or Vingolf concubine. She deserves a world where when she growsnup she can marry out of love, not politics. There are girls out there even less fortunate than she was before all this went down. If we think about girls like Lafter and Kudelia and even Fumitan the general tone is on both ends of the spectrum there is a crushing weight of cynicism that they are just tools and the only option is to lay low and dont rock the boat
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2017 01:56
|
|
|
gyrobot posted:To him, a child like Almiria isnt a political piece or Vingolf concubine. She deserves a world where when she growsnup she can marry out of love, not politics. There are girls out there even less fortunate than she was before all this went down. If we think about girls like Lafter and Kudelia and even Fumitan the general tone is on both ends of the spectrum there is a crushing weight of cynicism that they are just tools and the only option is to lay low and dont rock the boat Could be, or it might just be the all-conquering-hero fantasy he's living out requires he marry the princess and his betrothal to Almiria feeds into that, making her merely a different kind of pawn. As always it's difficult to tell what's genuine and what's bullshit about Macky.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2017 03:19
|
|
|
Hidingo Kojimba posted:Could be, or it might just be the all-conquering-hero fantasy he's living out requires he marry the princess and his betrothal to Almiria feeds into that, making her merely a different kind of pawn. As always it's difficult to tell what's genuine and what's bullshit about Macky. True, but to withhold the whole "prostitute as a tragic past" to McGillis felt off given how terrible the IBO Universe is for children, not even Lafter was subjected to such misery as a child.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2017 03:31
|
|
|
Logicblade posted:If Atra dies I'm gonna burn down a orphanage... I hope it's iznarios then
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2017 04:33
|
|
|
I've always thought Almiria was the one person McGillis legitimately cared about on some level since she's 100% innocent in all of the involved nonsense, so I'm glad that scene gave confirmation on some level that him caring about making her happy and making a future for her where she won't get screwed by family politics--among other things-- was real. At least I'm reading it that way cause for how hosed up this show has been to kids, I really want to hope she at least gets what he's promising her, even if he won't be the one personally delivering her there in the end. Also I'm kinda nervous we're gonna see someone die nearly every episode going forward.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2017 05:05
|
|
|
A Tekkadan Dies On Every Page.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2017 05:10
|
|
|
Caros posted:I really don't think he expected everyone to bow down and worship him because he controls Bael. He even says as much when talking with Orga. Going up against Rustal looks like it was always expected. Bael doesn't win him the keys to the kingdom in a single fell swoop, but it gives him a fighting chance. The other leaders wouldn't have any reason to remain neutral during this fight if he didn't have the fig leaf that Bael provides, and his posession of Bael gives his followers a feeling of righteous purpose which is going to help morale, something you desperately need when you're outnumbered two to one. Did you see his face when the Seven Stars declared their neutrality? He was genuinely surprised and irritated by their reply, and then tells Orga he didn't expect them not to cooperate. With McGillis, it's always hard to tell what's true and what's a lie, but I think he was genuinely confused at the equivocal third option they found when faced with the choice of being with him or against him. McGillis always knew he'd have to fight Rustal, unlike the idiot patsy acting as the point man for his 'revolution'. When he explains the situation to Orga near the end of the episode, he's explicit about what he did and didn't anticipate. He was ready to fight Rustal, but he thought he'd command the forces of the non-Arianrhod members of the Seven Stars in the process. Unfortunately, he miscalculated, and Bael alone isn't sufficient to compel their complete obedience. I'd argue that McGillis never needed to launch a violent coup d'etat to begin with. He was already the main voice on the council in a power struggle with Rustal, but he'd fought off Rustal's efforts to undermine him and Iok's idiocy gave him a point of weakness in Rustal's position to attack. He also knew Gaelio was still alive and would have to be dealt with. With time and patience, he could have consolidated his position in a conventional manner and become accepted as the first among equals before claiming Bael and asserting his hegemony.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2017 08:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 06:04 |
|
|
I have a feeling that was the original plan before the Hashmal arc led to Gaelio tipping his hand and Mika giving him confirmation of his ideals while fighting Hashmal.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2017 08:26
|
|