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Turtlicious posted:I'm exhausted about fighting about 5e, I just want people to try 4e, that's where most of my arguing comes from. People that like 5e may like it for entirely different reasons than why 4e was good. People that want a lighter game about fantasy dungeon crawling but without as much moment-to-moment tracking will not enjoy DnD4e. There's other cool games for that playstyle, though, like Dungeon World, which also has some notable issues but is also free and is much faster to get into than any DnD edition.
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Feb 21, 2017 06:16
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Turtlicious posted:I'm exhausted about fighting about 5e, I just want people to try 4e, that's where most of my arguing comes from. I'm just so tired of all these Dungeons and Dragons. EDIT: I just like talking about game design cause I think its very important for everyone to think about the game they are playing and the logic of what everything is doing and what impact this has on gameplay. It means your game experiences get better overall the more knowledge you have of the in and outs. kingcom fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 06:22
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bewilderment posted:People that like 5e may like it for entirely different reasons than why 4e was good. People that want a lighter game about fantasy dungeon crawling but without as much moment-to-moment tracking will not enjoy DnD4e. They don't want to play that either, because it's not 5e. "5e is the best system ever," my group says. "If 4e was so good, why did Critical Role go straight from 3.5 to 5e? Why did they skip 4e??" "You don't do as many voices as Matt Mercer" Like I'm getting compared to a guy who makes over 10k a week doing this poo poo. Luckily we only do 5e one-offs now, but when it first came out even after talking about all the issues I had seen and experienced in game shops and what not, even after the constant rule bickering in our own group, and the whining about the shifting power levels, they still get hyped for 5e. They binge on Critical Role, and like the coming of some terrible Horde I can sense the 5e requests are going to pour in. It starts with reaction gifs, then wistful talk about characters they like in #CritRoll, then finally they say "hey we haven't played 5e in a while let's do it." So I do. And they whine. and Whine. and whiiiiiiiine. Grog had these feats, how come it doesn't work the same for me? "Because I read the rules." Can I play this princess Homebrew that lets me negate 9 attacks a day per short rest? Why do Wizards get crazy Nova's, while I do average DPR? Why can't I do anything off-turn? The classes are so simple, couldn't I just have action surge every turn? Rule of cool right?! This is nothing like what I wanted. So then after about 10 hours of bitching and rolling through a system I'm pretty sure no-one likes everyone smiles says it was a great game, and goes home. Like clockwork. Every time something happens on Critical Roll that gives it internet buzz. Matt Mercer ruined my game nights.
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Feb 21, 2017 06:28
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I feel like there's a game your friends want to play and it may not actually be 5e or indeed any game that actually exists.
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Feb 21, 2017 06:31
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They like 4e though, they only bitch when we're playing 5e, which they take to mean that I'm supposed to allow anything they can come up with, and if I don't I'm a bad GM who needs to be brow beaten. Then we play 4e and they're the lovely players and friends and family I remember liking. It's like night and day, I don't know what about 5e that makes people want to pull out home-spun bullshit, and try making new weird rules at the table? Like, at the end of our last 5e game, I was asked if instead of spell slots, they can just have their Intelligence score in spells, and they can just cast whatever spells they want within that, while at the same time our fighter is bitching that they have to multi-class to match our Sorcerer Fighter Warlock in Nova Damage.
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Feb 21, 2017 06:35
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Mendrian posted:I feel like there's a game your friends want to play and it may not actually be 5e or indeed any game that actually exists. I think they want to hang out with Matt Mercer. I'm picking it up from the subtleties of the language they're using. EDIT: Would it blow their minds if they found out it was edited to hell and pre-planned and organised before hand so its a well oiled production rather than an off the cuff rpg session like they are running?
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Feb 21, 2017 06:35
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Turtlicious posted:They like 4e though, they only bitch when we're playing 5e, which they take to mean that I'm supposed to allow anything they can come up with, and if I don't I'm a bad GM who needs to be brow beaten. Then we play 4e and they're the lovely players and friends and family I remember liking. It's like night and day, I don't know what about 5e that makes people want to pull out home-spun bullshit, and try making new weird rules at the table? Like, at the end of our last 5e game, I was asked if instead of spell slots, they can just have their Intelligence score in spells, and they can just cast whatever spells they want within that, while at the same time our fighter is bitching that they have to multi-class to match our Sorcerer Fighter Warlock in Nova Damage. You should complain about how all their ideas are poo poo and why can't they be more like the players in Mercer's game.
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Feb 21, 2017 06:39
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I did get a nice Bon Mot when I pointed out that the last player to bitch this much during Matt Mercer's Game, ended up getting the boot. To which they rightfully replied I wouldn't give up the free beer.
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Feb 21, 2017 06:45
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Turtlicious posted:I did get a nice Bon Mot when I pointed out that the last player to bitch this much during Matt Mercer's Game, ended up getting the boot. To which they rightfully replied I wouldn't give up the free beer. Wait did this happen lol?
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Feb 21, 2017 06:48
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kingcom posted:Wait did this happen lol? Yeah there used to be a bald dude, but he slowed down a couple of games, and was your typical meta-gaming powergamer, so they got rid of him, and later encountered his dead body in a set piece lol.
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Feb 21, 2017 06:54
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I should note that a pretty good chunk of 5e is completely free to play. http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SRD-OGL_V5.1.pdf Along with the basic rules and stuff.
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Feb 21, 2017 07:05
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MonsterEnvy posted:I should note that a pretty good chunk of 5e is completely free to play. Yeah but so are so many easier, better games. Basic Fantasy! Microlite20! loving game of 2016 Godbound! Not 5e!
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Feb 21, 2017 07:07
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Arivia posted:Yeah but so are so many easier, better games. Basic Fantasy! Microlite20! loving game of 2016 Godbound! Not 5e! I can vouch for Godbound. It's not very D&D (even though it's technically OSR) but I've had lot of fun with it. I think it captures what I like about high-level D&D without being awful like high level D&D.
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Feb 21, 2017 07:09
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If you want straight up D&D there are some very good, very clean older versions of D&D available through retroclones: Dark Dungeons (BECMI), Labyrinth Lord (B/X), and Swords and Wizardry (OD&D/three little books.) You can do much better than 5e for everything that 5e does for free.
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Feb 21, 2017 07:20
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I've actually got Swords & Wizardry and Godbound-predecessor Exemplars & Eidolons on order in print and am planning on using either of those to run live games with. And they were both in total cheaper than buying the 5e Starter Set here, even counting shipping. And I've just remembered that Spears of the Dawn exists and should probably get that too.
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Feb 21, 2017 07:27
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Turtlicious posted:They like 4e though, they only bitch when we're playing 5e. I've realised that D&D, as in the game that appears in the D&D rulebooks, isn't what anyone who I game with actually wants from me any more. So I stopped running it, apart from the occasional BECMI beer&pizza dungeon bash. If they want me to run a game, we can play a game that better suits the way they want to play and the way I want to run it. Don't get me wrong here, I'll play whatever version of whatever game. Even 3.5, which I really dislike as a system. I'll have fun because gaming with fun people is fun regardless of the system. But gently caress if I ever want to run another game where people who said they wanted D&D get disappointed when D&D turns out to still be D&D with all the D&D stuff that's always been in D&D. e: I 100% realise that last part is why people like 5th ed, which is fine by me and is a great reason to play it if you want D&D. I can't be bothered trying to run it any more because nobody I know will play it without wishing parts of it weren't D&D. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 07:48
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By the way people, play a game that isn't d&d or a d&d retroclone. there's hundreds of games out there that don't use a d20. some of them are good a lot of them are bad but for every game you play or even read you'll come to understand RPG's a bit better and that will even help you understand garbage games like D&D (every edition)
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Feb 21, 2017 10:07
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Turtlicious posted:I'm exhausted about fighting about 5e, I just want people to try 4e, that's where most of my arguing comes from. Then stop whining like a brat in this thread and post what you like about 4e in an appropriate thread, or even better yet start a campaign in 4e and invite people to play with you. Just please stop making GBS threads up threads with stupid edition wars.
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Feb 21, 2017 11:06
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I'm just so tired of all these Edition Wars.
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Feb 21, 2017 11:14
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420 Gank Mid posted:Then stop whining like a brat in this thread and post what you like about 4e in an appropriate thread, or even better yet start a campaign in 4e and invite people to play with you. Just please stop making GBS threads up threads with stupid edition wars. Hey dude who never posted in this thread before, way to bring up poo poo we were moving past to keep the derail going to get those sick burns in I guess.
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Feb 21, 2017 11:14
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Elfgames posted:By the way people, play a game that isn't d&d or a d&d retroclone. there's hundreds of games out there that don't use a d20. some of them are good a lot of them are bad but for every game you play or even read you'll come to understand RPG's a bit better and that will even help you understand garbage games like D&D (every edition) Good RPGs to try that are super cheap, good for newbies one way or another and very different from DnD so you can know what you like: Fate Core And Accelerated are cool 'generic' games designed for narrative high-action. Both are free. Atomic Robo is a licensed RPG based on Fate Core that may be even better for newbies but is not free. Lasers & Feelings is literally one page come on give it a read and be enlightened at how light and small an RPG can be while still being cool. Eclipse Phase is a cool professional-quality sci-fi RPG transhumanist RPG that you can legally torrent/download because the core game is Creative Commons licensed. Then you'll shriek when you see what the rules and character creation involve. But wait! Eclipse Phase now has Transhumanity's Fate which is the same setting but with guidelines with how to play it in Fate Core instead of the heavy base system! And like the corebook it's also legally downloadable! DnD is cool but it's kinda like McDonald's in that it's mass-produced to appeal to the lowest common denominator (and is unlike McD in that it is weirdly expensive). In the same way that it is weird to only ever eat at McDonalds and other burger places as your restaurant of choice, it is weird to only play DnD and DnD-knockoffs.
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Feb 21, 2017 12:13
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Turtlicious posted:Hey dude who never posted in this thread before, way to bring up poo poo we were moving past to keep the derail going to get those sick burns in I guess. We come back to the goddamn 5e vs 4e vs "Whatever RPG" debate like clockwork.
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Feb 21, 2017 14:05
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My players don't read: I'm running an AD&D module in the Dark Sun setting which is known to be very lethal. I'm fine with the lethality and my players are aware of it, but the big bad on the module tonight is a level 22 dragon that the players are supposed to kill (level 6). The dragon has some significant impairments that make him killable, but he also straight up has PW: Kill as a spell and the DM instructions are "someone will probably die in this fight but make it nasty this is one of the most powerful dudes in the world." Is there just any way at all to use this spell without it seeming like a lovely cheap shot? There's just something wholly unsatisfying about a save-less "you're dead" spell. He has other options for spells obviously, so I can just not cast it, but then I wonder if I'm not selling the lethality short. A level 22 should be highly lethal. I've just never used PWK on such a low level party.
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Feb 21, 2017 14:34
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It's a little lost in the big OP, but this thread does have a "no debating the merits of other editions" rule and last week was a pretty good reminder of why we have it. The thread does not need to be told "there are better games!" every few days. Give it a rest.
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Feb 21, 2017 14:36
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Paramemetic posted:My players don't read: Declare who is being targeted, at the minimum one round ahead of time, and let the chips fall where they may after that. If they can interrupt it, if they can break LOS, if they can do anything that would reasonably stop it, let them stop it. If they attack to interrupt it and they miss, if there's a Jump check involved in leaping behind cover to break LOS and fail the jump, then they still fail, they still get hit, and they still die, but they tried, and you didn't drop it on them sight-unseen. Remember that you're not supposed to be able to survive Onyxia's Deep Breath, but it was always your fault for standing in the loving fire in the first place, and you always had more than enough time to get clear.
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Feb 21, 2017 14:44
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Paramemetic posted:My players don't read: As much as I love Dark Sun, goddamn if it doesn't rely on a lot of regressive game design sometimes. I'd just not use the spell. There are plenty of other ways to convey lethality besides having a literal "you're dead now lol" button, which creates no tension and brings no gravitas to the fight. That being said are you 100% sure that party is able to take down that monster even with severe gimping?  Also, are you playing it converted into 5e, or are you playing it in 2e rules as likely intended?
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Feb 21, 2017 14:45
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Drone posted:As much as I love Dark Sun, goddamn if it doesn't rely on a lot of regressive game design sometimes. Converting it, and I am confident they can take it, the dude's HP for the fight is very low and well within the party's damage range in one or two rounds. Part of the decision making I'm working with is giving him slightly more HP but taking PWK off the table entirely - I think several party members can one-shot him as written. The encounter is meant to be lethal but not a party wipe (obviously), but yeah, use of PWK is just it's a wholly unsatisfying death if it's just "lolrip."Part of why I'm asking was in case someone knew why that would be included, it's AD&D so I figured "lol, because gently caress players" but there might have been a real reason? There are two sheets for the dragon (one for if they attack prematurely, one for if they attack after an event) and PWK is explicitly "he still has this spell" afterwards, whereas he doesn't have for example globe of invulnerability and death fog if you fight him later. The published conversion rules for AD&D to 5e are actually pretty good with regards to monsters, things usually end up moderately weaker because you keep HP the same but AD&D did significantly less damage. The party is also level 6, whereas the adventure is "for parties level 3-6," so they are on the upper end of damage dealing capability. If anything 5e requires monsters to get more HP unless they are meant as minions/fodder. Edit: that said if you have any "hey whoa watch out for this problem tho" advice, I'd appreciate it. gradenko_2000 posted:Declare who is being targeted, at the minimum one round ahead of time, and let the chips fall where they may after that. If they can interrupt it, if they can break LOS, if they can do anything that would reasonably stop it, let them stop it. This is good advice, I like this. Makes it seem far less bullshitty. Thanks. Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 15:09
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gradenko_2000 posted:Declare who is being targeted, at the minimum one round ahead of time, and let the chips fall where they may after that. If they can interrupt it, if they can break LOS, if they can do anything that would reasonably stop it, let them stop it. Also: give each party member a number, roll 1d6, and let the dice decide who gets targeted. It's a verbal spell obviously, so let them try to target its throat or mouth. If they do enough damage in the round, it can't speak the Word. Power Word: Kill doesn't need LOS or even require the target hear the word before they die. It's supposed to be a really unfair spell.
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Feb 21, 2017 15:13
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Vengarr posted:Power Word: Kill doesn't need LOS or even require the target hear the word before they die. It's supposed to be a really unfair spell. It really is. RAW, you just die if you have <100 HP. It is a 9th level spell after all. Honestly, if the creature is capable of casting it in the encounter, I can think of no reason why it wouldn't cast it at every opportunity, doubly so if cornered. If you intend to stick to the rules (and you don't need to if you don't want to) I would just erase that spell from its list. Dark Sun, especially in its AD&D incarnation, is intentionally absurdly lethal. At character creation, you were supposed to create basically a portfolio of characters who all start at level 3, so they had at least a chance of surviving.
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Feb 21, 2017 15:46
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I'd be curious about how the original Dark Sun module had the dragon casting PWK - I assume as a spell (not an innate ability). If so, you need to realize that in 2e (where dark sun originated), any attacks that hit can interrupt a spell. I don't recall the initiative offhand for spells that high level but it would be absolutely possible for the party to interrupt the spell if it's used. Granted, the dragon could always go first on initiative but if you're worried about balance don't let him. So yeah, set it up so that hitting the dragon in the head to neck region makes the spell fizzle. Maybe work that into the other stuff you're doing to weaken him
mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 16:36
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In 5e, PW:K has a casting time of 1 action, and is instantaneous. It will cast it without fail on its turn with no recourse. You can change this very easily by making its casting time longer. Any spell with a casting time longer than 1 action can be interrupted if the caster is attacked in the middle of channeling it (they basically have to save).
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Feb 21, 2017 16:46
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Paramemetic posted:My players don't read: If you're using the Dark Sun character stable rules, this isn't necessarily a big problem. One character out of three will die, and can be replaced fairly painlessly. If you're not using the character stable rules, then the lethality of the adventure is a bit outsized - I'd suggest either a) not using PKW at all and let the dragon kill people in other, more avoidable manners, or b) deploy the spell, but provide the party with a way to resurrect their fallen comrade after the fight. Perhaps there's a Defiler in a nearby oasis that will bring her/him back to life, at a price.
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Feb 21, 2017 16:52
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mastershakeman posted:I'd be curious about how the original Dark Sun module had the dragon casting PWK - I assume as a spell (not an innate ability). If so, you need to realize that in 2e (where dark sun originated), any attacks that hit can interrupt a spell. I don't recall the initiative offhand for spells that high level but it would be absolutely possible for the party to interrupt the spell if it's used. Granted, the dragon could always go first on initiative but if you're worried about balance don't let him. So yeah, set it up so that hitting the dragon in the head to neck region makes the spell fizzle. Maybe work that into the other stuff you're doing to weaken him Power Words had a casting time of 1. That was kind of the point of them being Power Words.
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Feb 21, 2017 16:53
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Because of his injuries, this dragon only has "power paragraph: kill" and thus can be interrupted.
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Feb 21, 2017 16:56
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Running princes of the apocalypse, seems like one of the players wants to take over windharrow's spot as court bard for wind prophet. This got me to thinking, the party is four players, what if they start claiming the elemental weapons for themselves?
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Feb 21, 2017 16:58
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Because of his injuries, this dragon only has "power paragraph: kill" and thus can be interrupted.
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Feb 21, 2017 17:01
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Power Paragraph Kill posted:"For twelve years, you have been asking: What is the Power Word: Kill? This is the Power Word I'm speaking. I am the dragon who ends your life. I am the dragon who does not sacrifice his love or his values. I am the dragon who has made you a victim and thus has destroyed your world, and if you wish to know why you are perishing-you who dread knowledge-I am the dragon who will now tell you."
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Feb 21, 2017 17:07
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slap me and kiss me posted:If you're using the Dark Sun character stable rules, this isn't necessarily a big problem. One character out of three will die, and can be replaced fairly painlessly. They were made aware of the lethality and told to have stable characters. Whether they are paying attention to this or not is yet to be determined, I take turns with another DM and both of us have told the party enough times "y'all gonna die" that it seems meaningless to them - but now we're running a legit AD&D module and uh people are gonna die most likely. If they failed to make stable characters and have to sit out and if this cascades into a TPW is gonna be on them. I will probably bring a stack of pre-gen characters just in case so I can say "yo you bads I warned you" and they can play Generic Ex-Gladiator #17 or Generic Psionic Insect #41 until the end of session then opt to stick with or make a new one for next session since we're in an interlude of basically modules/adventures to learn the world more before we kick into a major campaign.
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Feb 21, 2017 17:11
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Paramemetic posted:For twelve years, you have been asking: What is the Power Word: Kill? 
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Feb 21, 2017 17:19
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Zandar posted:Power Words had a casting time of 1. That was kind of the point of them being Power Words. yikes, I knew they were nasty but man that's rough. Also due to the injuries don't let the dragon save against interruption (you couldn't save against it in 2e which this is a port of) also dragons are definitely libertarians, good call mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 17:23
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