UKMT February 2017 - Welcome to Tiny Train World

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Jeza: Feb 13, 2011; The cries of the dead are terrible indeed; you should try not to hear them.

OwlFancier posted:

I think that is a historical and, demonstrably, outmoded perception.

It is not necessary to dismantle the democratic structure, you can instead simply seek to own all of the inputs into it. You don't need to prevent participation when you can make people participate in the way you want.

It depends on your definition of what qualifies as dictatorship. I don't think there is an extant example of what you're talking about that truly exists in the world today. I think it cheapens the term dictatorship when people bandy about the UK and the USA as dictatorships.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 18:15

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# ? May 10, 2024 02:18

Jippa: Feb 13, 2009

So is trump now the most famous scottish person ever?

# ? Feb 21, 2017 18:25

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Jippa posted:

So is trump now the most famous scottish person ever?

No, because he isn't Scottish.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 18:26

WeAreTheRomans: Feb 23, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Jippa posted:

So is trump now the most famous scottish person ever?

Fat Bastard.

so, yes

# ? Feb 21, 2017 18:27

JFairfax: Oct 23, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

Jeza posted:

It depends on your definition of what qualifies as dictatorship. I don't think there is an extant example of what you're talking about that truly exists in the world today. I think it cheapens the term dictatorship when people bandy about the UK and the USA as dictatorships.

if you study politics the term 'elective dictatorship' to describe the british political system comes up pretty early.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 18:28

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Jeza posted:

I don't see how you have any influence or choice in the matter unless you are strategically placed to do something about it. I also think it's a little lurid to draw the comparison with unelected dictators who oversaw mass executions and concentration camps, but obviously I'll give Trump the chance to fully embrace that role.

Well I think it's a little lurid to bend over backwards for a reactionary who is pushing an openly racist agenda because Little Englanders decided they wanted to leave the EU for spiteful reasons so I guess we're at an impasse.

But if you prefer a democratically elected reactionary then the obvious example is Putin. Or Orban in Hungary or Erdogan in Turkey. There's clearly societal differences which make it much easier to be dictatorial in nations without a strong tradition of democracy, never mind the blind worship of the US constitution. Enough similarities though. Though frankly I still don't think there's a huge gap between Franco and Trump ideologically. Franco was a bit more traditionalist but he took over 80 years ago so duh.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 18:29

Jeza: Feb 13, 2011; The cries of the dead are terrible indeed; you should try not to hear them.

JFairfax posted:

if you study politics the term 'elective dictatorship' to describe the british political system comes up pretty early.

Yes but it shares only a little common ground with actual autocratic dictatorships. The fundamental basis of a dictatorship is one where the people being dictated to have no say in what is happening. Elected representatives with oversight, checks and balances, and the vulnerability of elections (also being constitutionally prevented from binding the next gov't) do not really qualify.

Yeah in times of massive majorities in this country they probably seem like kissing cousins, especially if you are in opposition to government policy, but it's more an emotive conclusion than a rational one.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 18:38

TheRat: Aug 30, 2006

Tesseraction posted:

But it's good news. He's been ditched by CPAC and his book deal terminated. For the first time in his dumb idiot life he's actually getting the lovely end of the stick he usually beats trans people with.

Lol. Norwegian state broadcaster just reported this as "Internet troll removed from Trump-conference"

# ? Feb 21, 2017 18:44

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

There isn't a binary switch where someone with a Dick Dastardly mustache pulls a lever and a country switches from Democratic to Autocratic.

Like, we have elections and a democracy, but there are still a ton of people in country whose votes don't matter because of FPTP. Are we more of a dictatorship than say, Germany, which has PR? What about Israel, which has PR for Israeli citizens but no votes at all for Palestinians? Or Iran, which has a parliament and president with power, but that is ultimately ruled over by an unelected religious council?

The whole thing is a multifaceted spectrum, and you can and should opposed a country sliding down the scale toward despotism, especially when that county is one of your biggest allies (not to mention the most powerful country in world).

# ? Feb 21, 2017 18:49

winegums: Dec 21, 2012

Primark pulls �shocking� and �racist� Walking Dead t-shirt from stores after angry complaint

This feels like over-reacting. I know Clarkson got in trouble for muttering "grab a friend of the family by the toe", but since I was a bairn I was brought up on "catch a tiger by the toe". Does anyone watch the show - is the guy racist? Is that his thing?

# ? Feb 21, 2017 18:54

Sion: Oct 16, 2004; "I'm the boss of space. That's plenty."

winegums posted:

This feels like over-reacting. I know Clarkson got in trouble for muttering "grab a friend of the family by the toe", but since I was a bairn I was brought up on "catch a tiger by the toe". Does anyone watch the show - is the guy racist? Is that his thing?

Yeah, I was more or less raised on 'grab a tiger by the toe/tail.'

I was honestly pretty surprised to learn of the racism goin' on in other versions of it.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 19:02

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Jeza posted:

Yes but it shares only a little common ground with actual autocratic dictatorships. The fundamental basis of a dictatorship is one where the people being dictated to have no say in what is happening. Elected representatives with oversight, checks and balances, and the vulnerability of elections (also being constitutionally prevented from binding the next gov't) do not really qualify.

Yeah in times of massive majorities in this country they probably seem like kissing cousins, especially if you are in opposition to government policy, but it's more an emotive conclusion than a rational one.

A surprising amount with the original office of dictator though given Parliament's lack of bounding and ability for a majority government to force through just about anything.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 19:09

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

wew, laddie, don't know where to start with that one

(the majority of the working group who wrote the policy were women, the majority of people who were consulted by the working group were women, and the majority of the paper talks about how to keep women safe)

# ? Feb 21, 2017 19:20

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

TinTower posted:

wew, laddie, don't know where to start with that one

(the majority of the working group who wrote the policy were women, the majority of people who were consulted by the working group were women, and the majority of the paper talks about how to keep women safe)

Women can have penises too.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 19:23

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Pissflaps posted:

Women can have penises too.

The working group was still majority cis women.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 19:25

jabby: Oct 27, 2010

OzyMandrill posted:

Because the religious right have made the term 'marriage' more loaded than just a union between two people by being arseholes about it, so people can then be free to choose as they are equal. With a possible end game of everyone else realising that making the distinction is pointless and just pass marriage for all.

It really is a case of double-edged sword for the religious right. They spent so much time preaching that marriage had special, god-given meaning that now some straight people are saying 'maybe we don't want that' and the immediate response has been 'WELL YOU HAVE TO HAVE IT'.

Really I think it's a relatively minor issue, but there doesn't seem to be any good reason not to just let straight people get them, so we should probably do that.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 19:39

Jippa: Feb 13, 2009

WeAreTheRomans posted:

Fat Bastard.

so, yes

I think mel gibson is a close second.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 19:45

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

goddamnedtwisto posted:

Is there a material difference between a civil partnership and a registry office wedding?

A few small technical differences in edge cases. I bet tintower has a lost.
The big one is that civil partnerships might not be recognised abroad when an identical marriage would be.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 19:49

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

There's also the edge case of forced "divorce" if one of the partners in a civil partnership undergoes gender transition.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 19:51

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

Pissflaps posted:

Agreed. I hope the court costs bankrupt them.

I wouldn't go that far.

A nicely written judgement informing them that they have clearly suffered no ill effect from straight persecution is enough. The law can be tidied up when parliament feels like getting around to it without the courts forcing the issue up the todo list.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 19:52

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

TinTower posted:

There's also the edge case of forced "divorce" if one of the partners in a civil partnership undergoes gender transition.

It was my understanding that the equivalent divorce/GRC veto issue existed with both marriage & civil partnerships. An awkward problem that needs to be resolved, but not relevant to these guys' case.
Have I got that wrong?

# ? Feb 21, 2017 19:56

jabby: Oct 27, 2010

Cerv posted:

It was my understanding that the equivalent divorce/GRC veto issue existed with both marriage & civil partnerships. An awkward problem that needs to be resolved, but not relevant to these guys' case.
Have I got that wrong?

It's not a veto. Two people of the opposite sex can't be in a civil partnership. If one of them transitions they get 'divorced' even if neither of them wants it.

Really, is there a good reason not to open it up to straight people besides spite over some of them going over the top about being persecuted?

# ? Feb 21, 2017 19:58

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

TinTower posted:

wew, laddie, don't know where to start with that one

(the majority of the working group who wrote the policy were women, the majority of people who were consulted by the working group were women, and the majority of the paper talks about how to keep women safe)

What are penis rights?

I'm going to guess it's something to do with not adopting the Nordic Model where only criminals are allowed to hire sex workers, which makes sex work safer because

Cerv posted:

It was my understanding that the equivalent divorce/GRC veto issue existed with both marriage & civil partnerships. An awkward problem that needs to be resolved, but not relevant to these guys' case.
Have I got that wrong?

The equivalent with marriage isn't the 'forced divorce', where you have to dissolve the civil partnership whether you want to or not, it's the 'spousal veto', where the other partner can scupper your transition if they want to be an rear end (which happens in a surprising number of cases) and because no-fault divorce doesn't exist in the UK the battle to prove one party is behaving unreasonably can go on for years. It's bad.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 20:00

Skinty McEdger: Mar 9, 2008; I have NEVER received the respect I deserve as the leader and founder of The Masterflock, the internet's largest and oldest Christopher Masterpiece fan group in all of history, and I DEMAND that changes. From now on, you will respect Skinty McEdger!

I was wondering what the "straight equality" placards were about when I found myself unable to get into a building for a meeting because they were all lined up outside of it. Some of the supporters got in a shouting match with some of the placard waving end of the world is night types that hang about the Courts of Justice which was pretty amusing to watch.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 20:28

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

The 'straight equality' stuff is :what:

, but anything that pokes those guys is probably a good thing.

Either they're wrong and all that happens is four words are stricken from an act by amendment and a few more cohabiting couples get rights, or they're right and the world ends in fire, which sounds like a win-win.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 20:36

learnincurve: May 15, 2014; Smoosh

winegums posted:

Primark pulls �shocking� and �racist� Walking Dead t-shirt from stores after angry complaint

This feels like over-reacting. I know Clarkson got in trouble for muttering "grab a friend of the family by the toe", but since I was a bairn I was brought up on "catch a tiger by the toe". Does anyone watch the show - is the guy racist? Is that his thing?

I clicked in the full knowledge that he would get the wrong reason why it's racist and I was correct. It's from a song written in 1936 for Ella Fitzgerald called Organ grinder's swing. The original lyric was "Now eenie meenie minie moe, catch that monkey by the toe" Racists being as thick in 1936 as they are now substituted the N word for monkey, it became a white power anthem and is still being used in the south by those same arseholes today. So no, probably best not to put it on a T-shirt.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 21:38

HJB: Feb 16, 2011; I can't get enough of are Dan

Since the thread's slow tonight: I've been looking at some old web pages through archive.org, as you do, and I've collected a few interesting/funny/dumb things along the way. Here's a 1997 piece from the BBC about the most important thing in politics.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 22:57

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

pre:

UUP 	1 Moustache 	1 Moustache

I wonder why the Tories are so clean shaven?

# ? Feb 21, 2017 23:03

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Didn't Thatcher have a thing about beards?

Also more beard = more communist if history is anything to go by.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 23:30

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

jBrereton looks like he's getting help on his Maths homework from Theresa May

# ? Feb 21, 2017 23:38

TheRat: Aug 30, 2006

lmao

# ? Feb 21, 2017 23:46

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Ah, brexit magazine

# ? Feb 21, 2017 23:46

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

I think I should start describing everything as local.

I mean, it's all local to itself.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 23:49

JFairfax: Oct 23, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meF7NmfnXZ0

# ? Feb 21, 2017 23:52

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

I have a subscription to Brexit Magazine.

# ? Feb 21, 2017 23:59

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

TinTower posted:

jBrereton looks like he's getting help on his Maths homework from Theresa May

lmao

# ? Feb 22, 2017 00:08

Prince John: Jun 20, 2006; Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

learnincurve posted:

I clicked in the full knowledge that he would get the wrong reason why it's racist and I was correct. It's from a song written in 1936 for Ella Fitzgerald called Organ grinder's swing. The original lyric was "Now eenie meenie minie moe, catch that monkey by the toe" Racists being as thick in 1936 as they are now substituted the N word for monkey, it became a white power anthem and is still being used in the south by those same arseholes today. So no, probably best not to put it on a T-shirt.

It's actually at least half a century older than that, including the version using 'friend of the family'. There was actually some serious Eenie Meeny Miny Mo chat some months/years back in the UKMT if I recall.

Wikipedia posted:

Some older versions of this rhyme had the word friend of the family instead of tiger:

Eeny, meena, mina, mo,
Catch a friend of the family by the toe;
If he hollers let him go,
Eena, meena, mina, mo.[4]

This version was similar to that reported by Henry Carrington Bolton as the most common version among American schoolchildren in 1888.[14] It was used in the chorus of Bert Fitzgibbon's 1906 song "Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo":

Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo,
Catch a friend of the family by his toe,
If he won't work then let him go;
Skidum, skidee, skidoo.
But when you get money, your little bride
Will surely find out where you hide,
So there's the door and when I count four,
Then out goes you.[15]

Then Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem for Scouts incorporating it called the Counting Out Song, which is what popularised it in the UK:

quote:

What is the song the children sing,
When doorway lilacs bloom in Spring,
And the Schools are loosed, and the games are played
That were deadly earnest when Earth was made?
Hear them chattering, shrill and hard,
After dinner-time, out in the yard,
As the sides are chosen and all submit
To the chance of the lot that shall make them "It."
(Singing) "Eenee, Meenee, Mainee, Mo!
Catch a friend of the family by the toe!
(If he hollers let him go!)
Eenee, Meenee. Mainee, Mo!
You-are-It!"

Eenee, Meenee, Mainee, and Mo
Were the First Big Four of the Long Ago,
When the Pole of the Earth sloped thirty degrees,
And Central Europe began to freeze,
And they needed Ambassadors staunch and stark
To steady the Tribes in the gathering dark:
But the frost was fierce and flesh was frail,
So they launched a Magic that could not fail.
(Singing) "Eenee, Meenee, Mainee, Mo!
Hear the wolves across the snow!
Some one has to kill 'em--so
Eenee, Meenee, Mainee, Mo
Make--you--It!"

Slow ly the Glacial Epoch passed,
Central Europe thawed out at last;
And, under the slush of the melting snows
The first dim shapes of the Nations rose.
Rome, Britannia, Belgium, Gaul--
Flood and avalanche fathered them all;
And the First Big Four, as they watched the mess,
Pitied Man in his helplessness.
(Singing) "Eenee, Meenee, Mainee, Mo!
Trouble starts When Nations grow,
Some one has to stop it--so
Eenee, Meenee, Mainee, Mo!
Make-you-It!"

Thus it happened, but none can tell
What was the Power behind the spell--
Fear, or Duty, or Pride, or Faith--
That sent men shuddering out to death--
To cold and watching, and, worse than these,
Work, more work, when they looked for ease--
To the days discomfort, the nights despair,
In the hope of a prize that they never could share,
(Singing) "Eenee, Meenee, Mainee, Mo!
Man is born to Toil and Woe.
One will cure another--so
Eenee, Meenee, Mainee, Mo
Make--you--It!"

Once and again, as the Ice went North
The grass crept up to the Firth of Forth.
Once and again, as the Ice came South
The glaciers ground over Lossiemouth.
But, grass or glacier, cold or hot,
The men went out who would rather not,
And fought with the Tiger, the Pig and the Ape,
To hammer the world into decent shape.
(Singing) "Eenee, Meenee, Mainee, Mo!
What's the use of doing so?
Ask the Gods, for we don't know;
But Eenee, Meenee, Mainee, Mo
Make-us-It!"

Nothing is left of that terrible rune
But a tag of gibberish tacked to a tune
That ends the waiting and settles the claims
Of children arguing over their games;
For never yet has a boy been found
To shirk his turn when the turn came round;
Nor even a girl has been known to say
"If you laugh at me I shan't play."
For-- "Eenee, Meenee, Mainee, Mo,
(Don't you let the grown-ups know!)
You may hate it ever so,
But if you're chose you're bound to go,
When Eenee, Meenee, Mainee, Mo
Make-you-It!"
Rudyard Kipling

Sion posted:

Yeah, I was more or less raised on 'grab a tiger by the toe/tail.'

I was honestly pretty surprised to learn of the racism goin' on in other versions of it.

Our primary school merrily used the racist version in the 80s, but I was completely oblivious to the racism part. I think I was in my twenties before I happened to hear it again and thought "hang on a minute...".

# ? Feb 22, 2017 00:15

winegums: Dec 21, 2012

TinTower posted:

jBrereton looks like he's getting help on his Maths homework from Theresa May

Please tell me you have this. If so please upload more pages. tia.

# ? Feb 22, 2017 00:16

big scary monsters: Sep 2, 2011; -~Ｓｋｕｌｌｗａｖｅ~-

Prince John posted:

Our primary school merrily used the racist version in the 80s, but I was completely oblivious to the racism part. I think I was in my twenties before I happened to hear it again and thought "hang on a minute...".

I'm pretty sure we split the difference with "tigger".

# ? Feb 22, 2017 00:21

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# ? May 10, 2024 02:18

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EAT SHIT

Prince John posted:

Our primary school merrily used the racist version in the 80s, but I was completely oblivious to the racism part. I think I was in my twenties before I happened to hear it again and thought "hang on a minute...".

Honestly until the whole Clarkson thing I'd never heard anyone say anything past "eeny meeny miny mo" and then pick whatever they were pointing at

# ? Feb 22, 2017 00:25

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