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NihilismNow posted:Maybe Germany has the same "problem" as the Netherlands. Women rarely work full time so average hours are lower than you would expect, only 25% of working women have a full time job.Greece has a lower female labour participation rate than either NL or DE.
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Feb 22, 2017 12:39
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jBrereton posted:Alternatively, employers hold all the cards in the top countries, because unemployment is so high Dutch economy is recovering. Now you too can get a minimum wage job!
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Feb 22, 2017 12:40
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Tesseraction posted:Ah so now 'lazy greeks' has evolved to 'lazy greek bitches' cool. And this... wow. How the hell do you interpret "Greece has a lower female labour participation rate than either NL or DE." with "lazy greek bitches"? I rarely agree with GC but gently caress you're much worse.
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Feb 22, 2017 12:41
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Doctor Malaver posted:Hey GC is German and I don't agree with him so I'll call him a nazi! Splendid idea! GaussianCopula? More like GoebbelsCopula, huh? Wonderful idea, Doctor Mengele
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Feb 22, 2017 12:41
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Doctor Malaver posted:Hey GC is German and I don't agree with him so I'll call him a nazi! Splendid idea! GaussianCopula? More like GoebbelsCopula, huh? No, I call him a Nazi because he has the same Lebensunwertes Leben ideology that dehumanises people to the extent that he is indifferent and often gleeful in their suffering. You're talking about a man who believes refugees should be gunned down to keep his taxes lower for gently caress's sake.
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Feb 22, 2017 12:41
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Doctor Malaver posted:Hey GC is German and I don't agree with him so I'll call him a nazi! Splendid idea! GaussianCopula? More like GoebbelsCopula, huh? I've read a lot of GC posts, and the only thing he could possibly dislike about the Third Reich is that the death camps weren't run by private contractors. Also the idea that the EU treaties are on the level of natural law and cannot possibly be broken or changed (except when it favours Germany and/or France) is the number one reason why the EU is falling the gently caress apart.
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Feb 22, 2017 12:44
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Doctor Malaver posted:And this... wow. How the hell do you interpret "Greece has a lower female labour participation rate than either NL or DE." with "lazy greek bitches"? I rarely agree with GC but gently caress you're much worse. Mmhmm, and why exactly is it pertinent to raise the issue of part-time work for women in those countries and the general employment of women in Greece, given they're not inherently like-for-like? Why raise it at all except as a way of saying "actually, Greece is still lazier."
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Feb 22, 2017 12:45
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Cerebral Bore posted:Also the idea that the EU treaties are on the level of natural law and cannot possibly be broken or changed (except when it favours Germany and/or France) is the number one reason why the EU is falling the gently caress apart.
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Feb 22, 2017 12:54
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Namarrgon posted:Dutch economy is recovering. Now you too can get a minimum wage job! Here's a 0 hour contract and you'll get to be the proud owner of your own company. Hell since you're an entrepreneur now and a savvy business person we wont have to coddle you with such stifling things as a living wage or job security. JMolen fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 12:57
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Tesseraction posted:No, I call him a Nazi because he has the same Lebensunwertes Leben ideology that dehumanises people to the extent that he is indifferent and often gleeful in their suffering. You're talking about a man who believes refugees should be gunned down to keep his taxes lower for gently caress's sake. I didn't notice any gleefulness and if he's indifferent to suffering that doesn't actually make him a nazi. Stop godwinning. Tesseraction posted:Mmhmm, and why exactly is it pertinent to raise the issue of part-time work for women in those countries and the general employment of women in Greece, given they're not inherently like-for-like? Why raise it at all except as a way of saying "actually, Greece is still lazier." People are raising issues to try to explain the unlikely statistics. Now imagine... I know this will be hard to you but... I don't know, maybe you can at least give it a try... Imagine that there are people who find it unlikely that an average Greek works 12 hours a week more than his Dutch counterpart AND that those people don't at the same time think that Greeks are untermenschen and bitches!!
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Feb 22, 2017 12:59
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Doctor Malaver posted:And this... wow. How the hell do you interpret "Greece has a lower female labour participation rate than either NL or DE." with "lazy greek bitches"? I rarely agree with GC but gently caress you're much worse. A pretty central part of Tesseraction's world view is that everything that went wrong in Greece is because of Germany, and trying to point out flaws such as corruption, overly generous benefits (especially for special interest groups), an inefficient, entrenched and oversized public sector and powerful unions creating a two-tier labor market is racism. Instead, it's Germany's fault, and it's ok to call Germans Nazis, but it's racist as gently caress to try to explain why statistics on Greek working hours might be misleading. edit: also keep in mind he's an idiot who voted for Brexit Cerebral Bore posted:I've read a lot of GC posts, and the only thing he could possibly dislike about the Third Reich is that the death camps weren't run by private contractors.
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Feb 22, 2017 13:02
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So you don't think the current system works, fine. How do you change it and what are the incentives of all stakeholders to agree to these changes and do they accurately reflect the respective negotiating power of the parties involved?
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Feb 22, 2017 13:05
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Doctor Malaver posted:I didn't notice any gleefulness and if he's indifferent to suffering that doesn't actually make him a nazi. Stop godwinning. I'll stop making fun of him for adopting Nazi ideology when he stops demanding the Greeks 'work harder' to stop a terrible economic policy from killing them. Doctor Malaver posted:People are raising issues to try to explain the unlikely statistics. Now imagine... I know this will be hard to you but... I don't know, maybe you can at least give it a try... Imagine that there are people who find it unlikely that an average Greek works 12 hours a week more than his Dutch counterpart AND that those people don't at the same time think that Greeks are untermenschen and bitches!! Considered it, dismissed it. At best it can be taken as JBrereton responded - that they're ignorant of the way that employment rights work in high-unemployment economies. Most likely it was them saying "hmm, Greeks work harder? Nuh-uh!" and then saying if those damned Greek women had jobs (which would inherently be part-time, because they're women!) then plucky NL and DE wouldn't look so lazy on average.
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Feb 22, 2017 13:06
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Pissflaps posted:So when Le Pen wins is she going to hold a Frexit referendum or just invoke article 50? she's not going to have enough mps so she'll need a referendum.
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Feb 22, 2017 13:08
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Geriatric Pirate posted:A pretty central part of Tesseraction's world view is that everything that went wrong in Greece is because of Germany, and trying to point out flaws such as corruption, overly generous benefits (especially for special interest groups), an inefficient, entrenched and oversized public sector and powerful unions creating a two-tier labor market is racism. Instead, it's Germany's fault, and it's ok to call Germans Nazis, but it's racist as gently caress to try to explain why statistics on Greek working hours might be misleading. It's not Germany's fault that their economy collapsed. It's the Troika's fault their economy is still completely hosed, and they are not German. GC's problem is he thinks crushing the Greek populace to enact reforms is better than treating them with human dignity. Your problem is you're an idiot and assume that any criticism of inhumane policy is 'SJWs crying racism.' And it's not racist to call a Nazi a Nazi. Germans don't actually hold a monopoly on Nazi ideology. Finnish people, for example, have shown themselves pretty open to the same ideology.
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Feb 22, 2017 13:09
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GaussianCopula posted:what are the incentives of all stakeholders to agree to these changes Madame Guillotine.
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Feb 22, 2017 13:13
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We know the ideology that GC pushes for. Greece and every other non-German country needs to push reforms that will make a few numbers on a chart look better, but these reforms are very unpopular for some reason and so can only be pushed on a completely desperate populace that has stopped hoping that tomorrow might be better. What reforms are these? Simple:
Stuff that is sacred and paramount:
Stuff that is obsolete and unaffordable:
Now they'll always be quick to find some statistics showing that, did you know, the Greeks (or whichever other country) shouldn't complain because situation is worse in South Sudan, or Yemen, or Haiti.
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Feb 22, 2017 13:21
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Tesseraction posted:Considered it, dismissed it. At best it can be taken as JBrereton responded - that they're ignorant of the way that employment rights work in high-unemployment economies. Most likely it was them saying "hmm, Greeks work harder? Nuh-uh!" and then saying if those damned Greek women had jobs (which would inherently be part-time, because they're women!) then plucky NL and DE wouldn't look so lazy on average. Netherlands has the highest part time employment in Europe. Almost 40% compared to Greece's 10%. https://data.oecd.org/emp/part-time-employment-rate.htm If you take all employed (part time and full time) and take their average then yes it may easily turn out that Greeks work more. But that's misleading, worthless statistics. Also, Greece has 42% women in labor force, while Netherlands has 70.5% http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/employment/employment-rate-of-women_20752342-table5 It's not unreasonable to assume that women are majority of those who work part time. So, to say that the statistics would look different if Greek women had opportunity to work part time is neither racism nor sexism not nazism. Now you could find the original research and show whether the chart that you posted mixes up part time work and full time work or not. If it doesn't then we can dismiss some of these assumptions and look for other explanations. Or you can continue throwing around untermensch, bitch, damned women, Lebensunwertes Leben, etc.
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Feb 22, 2017 13:49
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Reminder that Jean-Claude Juncker in an interview said that "the rules can't be applied blindly to everyone" when asked why France wasn't being hit with possible EU sanctions, like Portugal and Spain, over not being able to put it's budget in order with the Stability and Growth pacts and other Euro treaties. Later on it was discovered that France had agreements with the Commission and Council to be able to ignore such rules and treaties without penalties. Much like everything else in life, the rules and the law only applies if you're poor, and dumb enough to believe in them.
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Feb 22, 2017 13:55
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Tesseraction posted:It's the Troika's fault their economy is still completely hosed, and they are not German. they follow Schäuble, they are German as gently caress
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Feb 22, 2017 14:01
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Doctor Malaver posted:I didn't notice any gleefulness and if he's indifferent to suffering that doesn't actually make him a nazi. Stop godwinning. Perhaps not surprisingly, the statistics are indeed far more complicated than that and probably overstate the difference in working hours between Greece and other countries., though there's no doubt whatsoever that Greeks work hard (on average though, they also have far shorter working lives (.pdf)). They would however probably work a lot more productively with more investment and less austerity. I don't think Greek statistics have been put into question in recent years, though with Greek prosecutors still trying to get the head of the national statistics office convicted for bringing them in line with European standards I don't blame anyone for being skeptical. Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 14:03
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JMolen posted:Here's a 0 hour contract and you'll get to be the proud owner of your own company. Same bullshit with "full employment" and "lack of educated workers" statistics here in Germany. These types of statistics are completely meaningless, when brought up in isolation. In reality, millions of people are stuck in lovely McJobs with no benefits/pensions/labour protections. These are the types of jobs that would have been illegal only two decades ago and create a massive amount of collateral damage to the economy. It's not something to be proud of. And the supposed lack of educated worker? It just means that companies are not able to fill MA/PhD positions for a slave wage, like they used to be to when unemployment was higher, so the positions remain open.
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Feb 22, 2017 14:07
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Doctor Malaver posted:It's not unreasonable to assume that women are majority of those who work part time. So, to say that the statistics would look different if Greek women had opportunity to work part time is neither racism nor sexism not nazism. No one said it was Nazism dipshit, but why bring women up at all if you could just say "a higher number of part-time workers reduces the average working hours." Why mention women at all?
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Feb 22, 2017 14:12
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Cat Mattress posted:
Privatizing public companies which are highly inefficient and mainly exist to provide entrenched clients with highly lucrative jobs while exploiting monopolies is has nothing to do with "collective ownership". Just look at the Greek electric power industry to understand why everyone except for the overpaid workers would profit from such a move. The idea that Germany just wants to buy Greek assets (lol, what assets?) to profit is just ridiculous. Cat Mattress posted:
Again, no one wants to abolish pensions, but they need to be adjusted so that the Greek economy can actually sustain them, which can be said for all forms of welfare. There is no reason why the EU should subsidize the Greek welfare state more than any other member state. Cat Mattress posted:
A 170h workweek is forbidden by EU law.
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Feb 22, 2017 14:16
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Tesseraction posted:Ah so now 'lazy greeks' has evolved to 'lazy greek bitches' cool. No, it has evolved to "lazy misogynist greeks", if you want to be stupid, make it at least the right kind of stupid.
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Feb 22, 2017 14:20
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Tesseraction posted:No one said it was Nazism dipshit, but why bring women up at all if you could just say "a higher number of part-time workers reduces the average working hours." Why mention women at all? I don't know. If the argument works equally with and without mentioning women, then who cares? That poster didn't offend Greek women or any women. Stop pissing your pants with anger and go read Pluskut Tutter's links. He/she just dismantled your chart which you were prepared to fight for until death so your strategy now is to call ME a dipshit and look for another excuse to be enraged by something else.
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Feb 22, 2017 14:27
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Cat Mattress posted:Now they'll always be quick to find some statistics showing that, did you know, the Greeks (or whichever other country) shouldn't complain because situation is worse in South Sudan, or Yemen, or Haiti. lol. How about the fact that Greece is still much richer than every single one of its neighbours? Or several of the countries expected to bail it out? I think you said it yourself though, the problem in your eyes seems to be that people are using statistics instead of buying into your narratives. Apparently the real problem here is people using statistics to show that your Guardian articles about HIV epidemics and starvation in Greece are full of crap.
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Feb 22, 2017 14:35
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Doctor Malaver posted:Hey GC is German and I don't agree with him so I'll call him a nazi! Splendid idea! GaussianCopula? More like GoebbelsCopula, huh? It's because he's German and also loves Hitler. Glad to help.
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Feb 22, 2017 14:41
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Isnt GC in fact not german?
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Feb 22, 2017 14:48
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TheRat posted:Isnt GC in fact not german? Do you know who else was in fact not German?
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Feb 22, 2017 14:49
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Regarde Aduck posted:It's because he's German and also loves Hitler. Glad to help. NSDAP was the party of big government
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Feb 22, 2017 14:50
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Doctor Malaver posted:I don't know. If the argument works equally with and without mentioning women, then who cares? That poster didn't offend Greek women or any women. Stop pissing your pants with anger and go read Pluskut Tutter's links. He/she just dismantled your chart which you were prepared to fight for until death so your strategy now is to call ME a dipshit and look for another excuse to be enraged by something else. lol prepared to fight for, or just willing to call out a needlessly gendered takedown? Doctor Malavar decides by pissing their pants with anger while saying I am, in fact, the one who is mad. Pluskut Tukker posted:Perhaps not surprisingly, the statistics are indeed far more complicated than that and probably overstate the difference in working hours between Greece and other countries., though there's no doubt whatsoever that Greeks work hard (on average though, they also have far shorter working lives (.pdf)). They would however probably work a lot more productively with more investment and less austerity. This is an infinitely better critique and cuts to the heart of the matter. Naturally it cuts through my joke that Germany are the shirker bees, which sucks, but it does at least also cut through the idea of lazy Greeks just lazing about.
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Feb 22, 2017 14:53
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:NSDAP was the party of big government Being fair GC seems pretty fond of the European government, mostly for their policies towards non-Germans mind you.
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Feb 22, 2017 14:54
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I love, love the argument that the NL has less work hours because there's a lot of people with part times - hey, you dipshits, maybe that's because they can live with a part time job and that's actually a very big difference from the other countries! Try living in Portugal or Greece with a part time wage. 200 € a month? gently caress yeah that's my thing. E: And I mean Jesus loving Christ how do you guys not grasp that in a moment like we're living where every year there's some new novel software or something that does your work much faster investment is crucial? I mean go to Germany, everybody must already have top of the line SaaS apps for everything, can work everywhere including from home, all because their country and companies have money to invest in that. Go to Greece and the Finance Ministry must be running in AS/400 or some poo poo still. This stuff matters on the day to day. For a country that's behind, austerity is going to loving wreck the economy, not help it. You can't be externally competitive in an ever-changing market with no money to invest. As for structural reforms, the best way to do those is with incentives, not by letting people die on the streets. You need money to make money. orange sky fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 15:05
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GaussianCopula posted:(lol, what assets?) GaussianCopula posted:Again, no one wants to abolish pensions, but they need to be adjusted so that the Greek economy can actually sustain them, which can be said for all forms of welfare. There is no reason why the EU should subsidize the Greek welfare state more than any other member state. GaussianCopula posted:A 170h workweek is forbidden by EU law. Geriatric Pirate posted:lol. How about the fact that Greece is still much richer than every single one of its neighbours? Or several of the countries expected to bail it out? Define "rich". How do you measure whether a country is rich or not? Does that measure take into account price purchase parity? Does it take into account stuff such as the GINI coefficient? The world is full of creative accounting tricks to make things seem richer or poorer than they really are.
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Feb 22, 2017 15:09
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orange sky posted:I love, love the argument that the NL has less work hours because there's a lot of people with part times - hey, you dipshits, maybe that's because they can live with a part time job and that's actually a very big difference from the other countries! Uh, not really. Rent and house prices in NL are insane. We have more part time jobs for the same reason everyone has them; turns out there is less regulations on them! Hell, even PhD positions (the ones famous for having ridiculous hours) are on paper only 38 or 32 h/week.
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Feb 22, 2017 15:23
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Cat Mattress posted:Define "rich". How do you measure whether a country is rich or not? Does that measure take into account price purchase parity? Does it take into account stuff such as the GINI coefficient? The world is full of creative accounting tricks to make things seem richer or poorer than they really are. How about you tell me under which measures of well-being Macedonia, Bulgaria and Albania are better off than Greece? GDP per capita may not be perfect but instead of doing what you always you do ("lol statistics who needs those when you have the Guardian") tell me why you think Greeks are worse off than Albanians, Bulgarians, Macedonians or Turks.
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Feb 22, 2017 15:28
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Cat Mattress posted:Define "rich". How do you measure whether a country is rich or not? Does that measure take into account price purchase parity? Does it take into account stuff such as the GINI coefficient? The world is full of creative accounting tricks to make things seem richer or poorer than they really are. Also, only 1 of their neighbors is actually apart of the EU and Bulgaria isn't even part of the EFSF (European Financial Stability Facility) either. So yeah Greece is doing better than Albania, Macedonia (errr.... "FYROM") and Turkey, but does that matter at all? Greece is also doing better than Moldova too. (gently caress, and I don't think anyone in this thread is actually proposing helping those countries either especially not those Turks.) The only countries with lower wages than Greece in the EFSF are the Baltic states (who have been skull hosed by their own nightmare of austerity, and Slovakia. When you look at GDP per capita (PPP), Estonia/Lithuania/Slovakia are actually doing better than Greece due to lower cost of living. The only country Greece is doing better is Latvia and it isn't by that much. So basically yeah Greece is fighting for the bottom of the Eurozone at this point.
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Feb 22, 2017 15:30
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orange sky posted:As for structural reforms, the best way to do those is with incentives, not by letting people die on the streets. You need money to make money. The issue is that the SYRIZA government does not want to invest money smartly but has a very clear vision which groups need to be protected from any cuts - their clients. In the end the Troika and Greek government will always compromise on a mostly budgetary target (e.g. 3.5% primary surplus) and than SYRIZA is free to achieve it however they want - their preferred method being squeezing the middle class and private enterprises while sparing their clients in the public sector. You can blame all sides for accepting this trade-off (more cuts for less stuctural reforms) again and again - but the main culprits are idiots like Hollande and Moscovici/Juncker, who wanted to reach a compromise at any price. Re: GDP PPP - you don't get to cite that when your country is overly expensive because of over-regulation and debt fueled inflation.
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Feb 22, 2017 15:32
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Namarrgon posted:Uh, not really. Rent and house prices in NL are insane. We have more part time jobs for the same reason everyone has them; turns out there is less regulations on them! I think the issue is more complex and includes differences in local laws and taxes. For instance in Croatia, almost nobody is employed part time. Maybe you work part time, but then it's through different contract (freelancing, unreported work...) because one full time employee is much more affordable to employers than two half time employees.
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Feb 22, 2017 15:37
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