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i can't wait till dems triangulate towards trump in 2020. we'll build a wall, but payment will be means-tested!!
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Feb 22, 2017 14:47
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immigrants held in deportation camps will no longer face inhumane conditions! they'll be treated to a cheap screening of hamilton nightly (only $5) so maybe next time they come to the US they can america better.
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Feb 22, 2017 14:52
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When we grab em by the pussy, we'll give em a free screening for ovarian cysts
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Feb 22, 2017 16:13
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khwarezm posted:Its legitimately depressing to me some of the attitudes I'm seeing here and elsewhere from people how'd probably describe themselves as hard left with regards to some of their attitudes towards black people or other minority groups. It's easy for a freshly-minted white socialist who doesn't have a whole lot of exposure to the real world to take "all warfare is class warfare" a bit too literally, notice that discriminated-against groups tend to be poor, and come to the conclusion that racism and other kinds of discrimination are just proxies for class warfare rather than real problems of their own. It's been a problem in the left for a long time, it's just been more visible than usual lately.
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Feb 22, 2017 16:38
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Main Paineframe posted:It's easy for a freshly-minted white socialist who doesn't have a whole lot of exposure to the real world to take "all warfare is class warfare" a bit too literally, notice that discriminated-against groups tend to be poor, and come to the conclusion that racism and other kinds of discrimination are just proxies for class warfare rather than real problems of their own. It's been a problem in the left for a long time, it's just been more visible than usual lately. yes, and party quislings who used that as a political hammer to quell an economic-populist uprising in the party by framing it as an upsurge of white supremacy are directly responsible for aiding and abetting the white supremacy that now controls all branches of government.
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Feb 22, 2017 16:58
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The economic-populist uprising that sold the rust belt a bunch of snake oil about bringing their jobs back is directly responsible for the white supremacy now controlling all the branches of government.
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Feb 22, 2017 17:21
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Perez is directly responsible for the white supremacy so i consider him a poor choice for DNC chair
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Feb 22, 2017 17:26
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JeffersonClay posted:The economic-populist uprising that sold the rust belt a bunch of snake oil about bringing their jobs back is directly responsible for the white supremacy now controlling all the branches of government. that kinda happens when you cede a movement to the other party. maybe dems should have embraced said uprising instead of letting racists use it to achieve their racist ends
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Feb 22, 2017 17:27
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Condiv posted:that kinda happens when you cede a movement to the other party. maybe dems should have embraced said uprising instead of letting racists use it to achieve their racist ends Maybe the leaders of said uprising should have considered the possibility that the democratic electorate would reject them before validating the scam the racists used to acquire power for their racist ends.
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Feb 22, 2017 17:53
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JeffersonClay posted:[bernie sanders] should have considered the possibility that the democratic electorate would reject [him] before [advocating for serious change to the status quo which] the racists [also advocated for in order] to acquire power for their racist ends. Fixed this for you. e: literally, "bernie stabbed the party in the back" The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 18:07
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I don't disagree with that framing at all, except to note that promising the rust belt they'll get their manufacturing jobs back if we pull out of NAFTA has always been a lie. Using a lie to wrest power from the insidious neoliberals can have unintended consequences if you fail and then need those insidious neoliberals to defeat the fascists.
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Feb 22, 2017 18:25
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I don't think Bernie promised to pull out of NAFTA. And further, Bernie could not have reasonably known that the neoliberal wing would be so incompetent that they might actually lose to Donald Trump. Under the standard you've described, no populist could ever challenge the DNC from the left because rocking the boat could always lead to weaker general campaign.
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Feb 22, 2017 18:35
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JeffersonClay posted:I don't disagree with that framing at all, except to note that promising the rust belt they'll get their manufacturing jobs back if we pull out of NAFTA has always been a lie. Using a lie to wrest power from the insidious neoliberals can have unintended consequences if you fail and then need those insidious neoliberals to defeat the fascists. Maybe it might have helped if she had actually campaigned on the platform she adopted for political points, and even better campaigned in that region? Bernie went back and campaigned for her there. Hillary was too busy attending 10,000-dollar-plate fundraisers to go back and campaign on that message, though.
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Feb 22, 2017 18:37
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It's not a lie to say that trade agreements have been poor for American workers and that neither party has been willing to do what it takes to reverse that course. It's something that she thought she could get away without campaigning on to properly square the circle and get those suburban Republican voters. She was wrong.
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Feb 22, 2017 18:38
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Fiction posted:Maybe it might have helped if she had actually campaigned. . . .
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Feb 22, 2017 18:40
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Hillary sucked rear end. She sucked so much rear end that people are still reeling from it. If you're still blaming Bernie for your own politically warped gently caress ups then you still have a lot of soul searching left to do. .
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Feb 22, 2017 18:47
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Buckwheat Sings posted:Hillary sucked rear end. She sucked so much rear end that people are still reeling from it. If you're still blaming Bernie for your own politically warped gently caress ups then you still have a lot of soul searching left to do. They are extremely comfortable with blaming her loss on external factors. Also, there was a senate race in Ohio or something that proves Americans don't actually want populism.
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Feb 22, 2017 18:51
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in actual news about the race, it appears the perez campaign's claim they had 180 dnc members supporting him is a smokescreen http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/320553-ellison-holds-edge-in-dnc-race quote:The Hill has identified the stances of 240 DNC members, either through their private responses to a survey circulated over the past week or from public endorsements. Edit: OTOH http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/dnc-race-remains-tight-energized-democrats-combat-trump-45661073 quote:Independent Democratic strategists tracking the race say Perez has emerged as the front-runner, with the backing of 205 committee members. Ellison has the support of 153 members. The strategists spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not allowed to discuss the vote counting publicly. Views: 
Zikan fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 18:53
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JeffersonClay posted:I don't disagree with that framing at all, except to note that promising the rust belt they'll get their manufacturing jobs back if we pull out of NAFTA has always been a lie. Using a lie to wrest power from the insidious neoliberals can have unintended consequences if you fail and then need those insidious neoliberals to defeat the fascists. See this is where you part ways with the Bernouts on this forum, they actually believe that you an bring manufacturing back to the heartland by backing out of trade deals.
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Feb 22, 2017 19:11
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The Kingfish posted:I don't think Bernie promised to pull out of NAFTA. http://www.ontheissues.org/Archive/12_Steps_Free_Trade.htm quote:Since 2001 we have lost more than 60,000 factories in this country, and more than 4.9 million decent-paying manufacturing jobs. We must end our disastrous trade policies (NAFTA, CAFTA, PNTR with China, etc.) which enable corporate America to shut down plants in this country and move to China and other low-wage countries. We need to end the race to the bottom and develop trade policies which demand that American corporations create jobs here, and not abroad quote:And further, Bernie could not have reasonably known that the neoliberal wing would be so incompetent that they might actually lose to Donald Trump. Under the standard you've described, no populist could ever challenge the DNC from the left because rocking the boat could always lead to weaker general campaign. I don't have a problem with challenging democrats from the left as long as that challenge isnt predicated on a fairy tale the fascists will turn against us in the general. Buckwheat Sings posted:Hillary sucked rear end. She sucked so much rear end that people are still reeling from it. If you're still blaming Bernie for your own politically warped gently caress ups then you still have a lot of soul searching left to do. I've spent plenty of time thinking about our failures in this election and while many of them fall squarely on the Clinton campaign, some of them do not. There's plenty of blame to go around here, and I'd suggest that if you have a visceral negative reaction to anyone suggesting Bernie's strategy was counterproductive or the left is not blameless perhaps it is you who needs to get over the loss you suffered this cycle.
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Feb 22, 2017 19:11
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JeffersonClay posted:Maybe the leaders of said uprising should have considered the possibility that the democratic electorate would reject them before validating the scam the racists used to acquire power for their racist ends. leaders? who exactly are you talking about?
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Feb 22, 2017 19:26
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JeffersonClay posted:I don't disagree with that framing at all, except to note that promising the rust belt they'll get their manufacturing jobs back if we pull out of NAFTA has always been a lie. Using a lie to wrest power from the insidious neoliberals can have unintended consequences if you fail and then need those insidious neoliberals to defeat the fascists. The Kingfish posted:Under the standard you've described, no populist could ever challenge the DNC from the left because rocking the boat could always lead to weaker general campaign.
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Feb 22, 2017 19:28
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"JeffersonClay posted:a fairy tale the fascists will turn against us in the general Trump and his merry band of fascists won the general dude
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Feb 22, 2017 19:28
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JeffersonClay posted:I don't have a problem with challenging democrats from the left as long as that challenge isnt predicated on a fairy tale the fascists will turn against us in the general. The fact that you think the right being able to use left's points against centrists is the left's fault is baffling.
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Feb 22, 2017 19:30
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JeffersonClay posted:I don't have a problem with challenging democrats from the left as long as that challenge isnt predicated on a fairy tale the fascists will turn against us in the general. what fairytale was that?
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Feb 22, 2017 19:32
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Here's steaming hot take for ya'll: shutting out the left while letting conservative Democrats break ranks all the loving time can have unintended consequences if you fail and then need those insidious leftists to defeat the fascists. Oh except the leftists mostly still fell in line and the centrists are bitching about them anyway. *cue Curb Your Enthusiasm theme*
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Feb 22, 2017 19:35
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Trump and his merry band of fascists won the general dude Only because of Bernie Iscariot.
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Feb 22, 2017 19:39
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JeffersonClay posted:I don't disagree with that framing at all, except to note that promising the rust belt they'll get their manufacturing jobs back if we pull out of NAFTA has always been a lie. Using a lie to wrest power from the insidious neoliberals can have unintended consequences if you fail and then need those insidious neoliberals to defeat the fascists. Bernie never promised that dude, what horse poo poo.
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Feb 22, 2017 19:40
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Hey. More primary chat. Great. Like clockwork, with the loweffort trolling and the sickburnz and the meeting of effort with no effort. You're all very smart and special and we're all quite impressed with your [intellect/care/lack of care/sharp wit/level of irony]. Now please, literally anywhere else. I hear dadchat likes this sort of thing? Re content: Pretty sure someone has hosed up at The Hill on their counts. I don't think even Ellison is claiming that wide of a margin over Perez. Charitably, their nonresponders must be skewing Perez, which should spur a little selfreflection for the editor and the writer about their story and contact method. A reminder that Ellison claimed Perez' number was "unverifiable", which is either classic MN passive aggression or an indictment of his whip operation.
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Feb 22, 2017 19:46
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turns out the establishment wants perez cause he's the best friend of big banks: https://theintercept.com/2017/02/22/dnc-chair-candidate-tom-perezs-bank-friendly-record-could-kneecap-the-democratic-party/quote:In February 2010, a JP Morgan vice president, Stephanie Mudick, told the House Committee on Veterans’ Affairs on behalf of her bank, “I would like to express to the men and women serving our country, and to the members of this committee, Chase’s deepest regret over the mistakes we made in applying these protections.”
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Feb 22, 2017 20:19
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Condiv posted:turns out the establishment wants perez cause he's the best friend of big banks: https://theintercept.com/2017/02/22/dnc-chair-candidate-tom-perezs-bank-friendly-record-could-kneecap-the-democratic-party/ Stunning. Unprecedented. How could we have expected this from the Clintonians?
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Feb 22, 2017 21:03
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Paracaidas posted:Hey. More primary chat. Great. Like clockwork, with the loweffort trolling and the sickburnz and the meeting of effort with no effort. You're all very smart and special and we're all quite impressed with your [intellect/care/lack of care/sharp wit/level of irony]. Now please, literally anywhere else. I hear dadchat likes this sort of thing? A damning indictment of dadchat if true
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Feb 22, 2017 21:08
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Condiv posted:what fairytale was that? menino posted:Bernie never promised that dude, what horse poo poo. https://twitter.com/sensanders/status/598165545473671168 http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Free_Trade.htm quote:Since 2001 we have lost more than 60,000 factories in this country, and more than 4.9 million decent-paying manufacturing jobs. We must end our disastrous trade policies (NAFTA, CAFTA, PNTR with China, etc.) which enable corporate America to shut down plants in this country and move to China and other low-wage countries. We need to end the race to the bottom and develop trade policies which demand that American corporations create jobs here, and not abroad. https://timesleader.com/news/local/533306/bernie-sanders-to-campaign-in-scranton-thursday quote:“Many, many thousands of jobs have been lost in Pennsylvania and gone to Mexico and China,” Sanders said during an interview in a dressing room in the basement of the cultural center. “And then those cheap products are brought back to the U.S. for sale. As president, I will demand those corporations return those jobs to the U.S.” It's not shocking that Trump was able to pull a lot of union votes using exactly the same false promise.
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Feb 22, 2017 21:20
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We are in dire need of better trade deals and still those are very likely false promisses where Trunp will probably fail. I think it's fair and very pertinent to criticize those weak arguments from a left perspective. And no surprise there on Perez being a corporate shill.
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Feb 22, 2017 21:46
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Hmm, I'm starting to become convinced that Perez is Bad
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Feb 22, 2017 21:57
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I feel that the dude who has spent virtually his entire professional career fighting for labor rights is not a corporate shill; but sure let's go with the Intercepts totally fair and balanced editorialization.
BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 22:11
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What's the reasonable stance on banks btw? Is there anything other than "they must be destroyed via rocket launcher" that is an ethical position on them?
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Feb 22, 2017 22:14
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I feel that the dude who has spent virtually his entire professional career fighting for labor rights is not a corporate shill; but sure let's go with the Intercepts totally fair and balanced editorialization. There's nothing editorializing about pointing out that Perez was running the department, could have done something, and nothing was done.
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Feb 22, 2017 22:22
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:There's nothing editorializing about pointing out that Perez was running the department, could have done something, and nothing was done. Oh, there's a whole, whole lot of editorialization happening in that piece. The whole last graph, for example, has literally no place in a news story -- which of course is the problem with the Intecept as an operation, but that's for another discussion. It's also dumb because it assumes Ellison would make those same decisions, even though we have no basis at all for how Ellison would act, were he to be a cabinet secretary because he's never been one. It also has little bearing what so ever, on how either would do their jobs as DNC chair. The party isn't choosing someone to come up with policy re: banking, so it's again just dumb poo poo being peddled by the Intercept masquerading as journalism. Lightning Lord posted:What's the reasonable stance on banks btw? Is there anything other than "they must be destroyed via rocket launcher" that is an ethical position on them? They're something that exists and has existed for a very long time and you might as well accept that reality. You're not going to remove them from existence. You can, however, propose rules that make them work for people instead of the other way around -- but that's a larger policy discussion best had elsewhere. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 22:26
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Saying there's no way to tell if Ellison would act different, because he hasn't had the chance to is weird. Here they point out their basis for assuming he'd be harder on banks:quote:Perez’s main competitor for the DNC chair is Rep. Keith Ellison, who serves on the Financial Services Committee. Ellison signed a letter strongly criticizing Perez’s decision to grant the waivers to the big banks that were guilty of market manipulation. He co-sponsored a bill to break up the banks. And in September 2016, after Wells Fargo was found to have committed fraud in opening up millions of false accounts for customers who did not want them, he proposed that bank workers should unionize to fight fraud.
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Feb 22, 2017 22:35
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