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PleasingFungus posted:it's not specific to the wand, it applies to literally every (non-opaque) cloud you create. note that before this commit, there was a very similar, but harder to discover behaviour where your clouds would dissipate at 4x rate when out of LOS instead. Ah, thanks for clarifying! I guess I'm just not a fan of that behavior?  I didn't notice it until now because I only play sporadically. I won with a KoAr recently and while high power wand of clouds is plenty powerful I can see myself getting tired of managing which clouds I'm willing to allow to disappear based on how I move/get moved. You can affect clouds through other means but none of them are as ubiquitous as simply changing what's in your LOS.
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Feb 23, 2017 07:57
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| # ? May 15, 2024 01:54 |
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It was definitely surprising to me the first time I used Conjure Flame to wall off a centaur, turned a corner while running away from it, and it instantly caught up to me.
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Feb 23, 2017 08:00
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Turtlicious fucked around with this message at 11:27 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 09:30
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Turtlicious posted:If anyone has tips I'm splatting random characters trying to grind out a win https://crawl.project357.org/watch/Turtlicious Play MiBe
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Feb 23, 2017 10:48
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I really appreciate the change to gell's gravitas. That spell and lesser beckoning make a much bigger difference than I expected. Warper feels like an actual fleshed out background now with a fun, unique and interesting play style. It still has some issues. It's quite weak and the book is far less helpful in the early game than for any other book start since it doesn't help you kill dudes, and does little to help you not die to dudes beyond shroud, which is quite problematic on its own. But once you can afford to invest in translocations, gells and lesser beckoning make for great support tools on a hybrid. Shroud really needs some work, though. It's an important spell for warpers and skalds, but it feels awful to use and it's very hard to assess its impact.
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Feb 23, 2017 11:21
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Clouds disappearing out of LoS means that all but 1 of a steam draconians breath disappears 1 turn after use in a 1 tile corridor, right?
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Feb 23, 2017 11:26
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Died in Labrynth, after playing for what felt like forever. Rip MeGl I will always miss you Also thanks to everyone who came and watched tonight, especially someone awful.
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Feb 23, 2017 11:27
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It was fun watching you! But seriously, my biggest tip for you is to play slower. You'll live a lot longer if you don't just run around crazily and hold down the tab button. DCSS needs tactics and what feels like a safe situation can turn dangerous in the span of a single round, which you can't really respond to if you're leaning on tab. Also pull stuff back to halls, and don't mess with your inventory in sight of an enemy. You could totally have taken that mino if you had just used Heroism/Finesse and poked it.
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Feb 23, 2017 11:32
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someone awful. posted:It was fun watching you! But seriously, my biggest tip for you is to play slower. You'll live a lot longer if you don't just run around crazily and hold down the tab button. DCSS needs tactics and what feels like a safe situation can turn dangerous in the span of a single round, which you can't really respond to if you're leaning on tab. I know I'm so frustrated about that. I just didn't know
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Feb 23, 2017 11:35
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Every death is a learning experience! Unless you're me, in which case you learn nothing and continue to play like an idiot eternally.
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Feb 23, 2017 11:37
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someone awful. posted:It was fun watching you! But seriously, my biggest tip for you is to play slower. You'll live a lot longer if you don't just run around crazily and hold down the tab button. DCSS needs tactics and what feels like a safe situation can turn dangerous in the span of a single round, which you can't really respond to if you're leaning on tab. This is total poo poo nonsense, never EVER stop slamming tab except to throw on unidentified randart armour and chug/munch purple
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Feb 23, 2017 11:41
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Finally bit the bullet and got myself a SA subscription. Glad to know you guys are having fun with IJC (erm... WJC, sorry). I know slowing and distracting OOFs is weird, but I think it's better for consistency, and there' some special messaging for it 
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Feb 23, 2017 14:00
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If you can do it to a ghost or animated air there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to do it to a miniature ball of fire powered by Zot and hatred.
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Feb 23, 2017 14:59
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apple posted:Ah, thanks for clarifying! I guess I'm just not a fan of that behavior? I don't really like it either. It stops an abusable behavior, sure. But logically it doesn't make sense for clouds to disappear because you move away from them, and I don't see anything inherently wrong with hurting things off-screen. Same with summons, conjure ball lightning, OoD (?). I don't really have a better idea though.. maybe less XP for things that die off-screen?
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Feb 23, 2017 15:22
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Less XP sounds better than removing clouds. You could also have clouds disappear if you get more than ~15 tile radius away? Similar to "out of LoS" but less restrictive.
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Feb 23, 2017 16:08
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Fitzy Fitz posted:I don't really like it either. It stops an abusable behavior, sure. But logically it doesn't make sense for clouds to disappear because you move away from them, and I don't see anything inherently wrong with hurting things off-screen. Same with summons, conjure ball lightning, OoD (?). I don't really have a better idea though.. maybe less XP for things that die off-screen? Doesn't that make poison and other DoT effects worse in almost every use case other than melee range kiting with a weapon of venom? What about Malign Gateway; would the outside LOS XP penalty stack with the summons XP penalty? Also, I dislike the summons XP penalty existing, and would hate to see another special case for XP gain thrown in. Speleothing posted:Less XP sounds better than removing clouds.
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Feb 23, 2017 16:31
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A hilarious side-effect of playing as a Mummy wizard that didn't find any offensive spell books until I acquired Annihilations is that I spend so much time kiting, pinging, confuse stabbing, and stair dancing, and then healing up that I've been accidentally generating some nasty OoD monsters on most of the dungeon floors! Fun! EDIT: Also really noticing the lack of poison cloud the more I splat spellcasters. I have leaned on the tab-happy Antmen and Demonspawn for too long. FulsomFrank fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 16:35
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Floodkiller posted:Doesn't that make poison and other DoT effects worse in almost every use case other than melee range kiting with a weapon of venom? What about Malign Gateway; would the outside LOS XP penalty stack with the summons XP penalty? Also, I dislike the summons XP penalty existing, and would hate to see another special case for XP gain thrown in. I would honestly be happier if there was no penalty for off-screen stuff at all, but if we're going to have one, I'd prefer one that's less severe than complete negation. Lower XP would mean you could still kill things off-screen, but you'd be encouraged not to. I don't like the summon XP penalty either. WRT your poison comment: Why was it decided that certain off-screen damage is fine (poison) but others are not (summons, clouds, etc)?
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Feb 23, 2017 16:38
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Carcer posted:Clouds disappearing out of LoS means that all but 1 of a steam draconians breath disappears 1 turn after use in a 1 tile corridor, right? Opaque clouds are the exception to the rule. All these behaviors are mentioned if you examine clouds in-game (or look them up in ?/), but of course not many people are going to do that. I have an old note about trying to mention more of it in spell/item descriptions... might poke at that this weekend.
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Feb 23, 2017 17:03
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Clouds operating out of LOS is, just like summons out of LOS (anyone remembers heteroy's Stone of Earth stunt in the Elf vault?), cool if you discover it yourself. In this case you'll be unhappy if evil devs take if away from you. However, these mechanics lead to suggestions and then to degenerate, but standard gameplay. So they're removed. It's always like this. So out-of-sight clouds won't come back. (This is one of the "gameplay >>> real life" situations.) The interface could be more clear about this, of course.
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Feb 23, 2017 17:35
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Fitzy Fitz posted:WRT your poison comment: Why was it decided that certain off-screen damage is fine (poison) but others are not (summons, clouds, etc)? Most forms of poison, except for Poisonous Cloud, are inflicted on a target that is currently in LOS. Clouds/summons (without the nerfs both currently have) allow the player to pre-emptively cast it without a target in sight, then force a situation where the target encounters the damage without you being in LOS. It also helps that poison only builds up to a set cap, doesn't do a large amount of damage immediately per turn upon the monster being in poison, and also becomes useless by design later due to rPois/immunity and large health pools. I dislike poison as a system, but there is a chain of logic to why it is considered 'fine'. The better fix action if you want clouds outside LoS to stick around would be to make clouds outside LoS do no damage, but have the AI treat it as if it would damage them. This would eliminate the possibility of killing monsters outside LoS while keeping the escape aspect. However, this now needs to be communicated to the player so they aren't frustrated that the clouds aren't killing properly (similar to how they may be frustrated now with the clouds disappearing quickly outside LOS). Beaten before I replied.
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Feb 23, 2017 17:43
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I'm just amused people care about the purity of crawl winrates being fair so much that they make clouds disappear instantly if you lose sight of them because you might be able to sometimes get a small amount of xp from an enemy that doesnt threaten you very much.
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Feb 23, 2017 19:25
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I can see how you could correlate it with win rate, but except for perhaps a few players, I doubt that's what these decisions are about. Trivializing a portion of the game is fun the first time you do it, but gets boring very quickly. Cloud abuse let you trivialize large portions of the game, and the more you did it, the more reductive and pointless the game felt in general. Preventing that makes the game better. However, I can understand why it would not feel so until you've done it a bunch of times. Although I completely agree that clouds should disappear out of LoS, I don't think it's as trivial to decide when a certain mechanic is degenerate or without value as most of the people on the tavern or in %%crawl do. Just because a subset of experienced players think something is no good doesn't mean it's no good for everyone. But thank god I'm not a dev, because while I agree with my own reasoning, better players than I post opinions that are as well reasoned, or often much better thought out than mine all the time. I think it's impossible to objectively sort out any kind of utilitarian, greatest fun for the greatest number of players, type of solution to the problems that are frequently argued for this or any game. That said, devs: bring back singularity, reform malmutate and bring back high elves!
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Feb 23, 2017 19:41
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Same, but I don't care about Singularity, I just want the good Charms back, Malmutate reform, and good wands.
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Feb 23, 2017 19:44
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Well, I was partly making a joke in reply to something dpeg wrote here about SA posters a few days ago. I don't care about malmutate. I never do extended anymore anyway, but with newmut, my feeling is that mutation should be in a pretty good state as long as you're conservative with your first few potions of mutation. I also don't want haste back, but I do want some strong mid-high level charms. I'm not sure what the criteria would be for submissions to be accepted, though. I also think that the wand removal is for the best, too. But players deserve more toys to compensate. Maybe, like, in the form of some really sweet new charms and hexes? And I loved HE, but I can understand why they were perceived as problematic. I wrote my own species to replace them, which after many revisions I finally feel are really fun to play, but I'm not sure if anyone other than I would think so.
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Feb 23, 2017 20:12
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Heithinn Grasida posted:I can see how you could correlate it with win rate, but except for perhaps a few players, I doubt that's what these decisions are about. Trivializing a portion of the game is fun the first time you do it, but gets boring very quickly. Cloud abuse let you trivialize large portions of the game, and the more you did it, the more reductive and pointless the game felt in general. Preventing that makes the game better. yeah. to clarify, out-of-LOS clouds aren't a 'fun' kind of 'broken', like the feeling you get when you smash your way through a big mob of enemies with chei stats or level 9 spells or a crazy early randart or w/e. it's "don't bother interacting with enemies at all, just kite them from out of line-of-sight and kill them without any chance of retaliation." that's lame. more limited sources of clouds, like from the wand, would be more reasonable to allow out of LOS (as someone was saying earlier); but it's better to have a simple, consistent rule in this case, i think.
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Feb 23, 2017 20:12
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XP reduction, faster dissipation, or reduced damage all make more sense to me, but it's not really a big deal. I just don't think it makes any sense for clouds to disappear like that, even if it addresses a legitimate issue. I will strongly disagree with one thing though: Dropping heat-seeking ball lightning bombs while kiting with haste/swiftness was actually very fun.
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Feb 23, 2017 20:19
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PleasingFungus posted:Opaque clouds are the exception to the rule. Ok, that's good to know. Actually, is there a difference between Dr steam and fire over water steam? From personal experience I think fire generated steam does more damage but that's probably wrong.
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Feb 23, 2017 20:27
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The cloud stuff is easy to explain, the player is a solipsist
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Feb 23, 2017 21:11
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@the devs: it would be cool if the mutation code was edited to make mutations more likely to level up existing mutations instead of granting new ones. It would give both positive and negative mutations a lot more character imo.
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Feb 23, 2017 21:23
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I don't know why people complain about shafts. I think this is hilarious. e: I lived 
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Feb 23, 2017 21:26
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You had a whip, you were fine.
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Feb 23, 2017 21:30
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dpeg posted:So out-of-sight clouds won't come back. (This is one of the "gameplay >>> real life" situations.) The interface could be more clear about this, of course. My beef with it is precisely that it creates worse gameplay. It creates a lot of weird situations involving micromanaging clouds which makes me think this isn't really the lesser of two evils. Off the top of my head:
2. Similarly for wand of clouds if a dangerous enemy is immune/resistant to a cloud type it's in your best interest to step in and out repeatedly to re-apply the wand (subject to availability of recharging and opportunity cost of having wand charges for later, it's very strong to "re-roll" though) 3. If you need to re-position yourself at all you have to examine which tiles leave your LOS which is surprisingly annoying to determine depending on the level's layout. If you don't do this you're potentially throwing away large amounts of damage, it's specially noticeable on a limited resource like wands. 4. Depending on the layout of where you placed your cloud you can use your movement to adjust cloud coverage such that dumb enemies walk into it and smart ones circle around it which is sometimes better than having smart ones hang in the back. Again, this is annoying to manage because determining what tiles will become "fog of war" is not that easy. 5. Like I said before, though least important in my mind: it punishes all unintentional movement as a side effect, of which there's a lot of sources.
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Feb 23, 2017 21:51
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Wu Jian is definitely the most fun god in the entire game, holy poo poo. It was looking for a while like 0.20 might be mostly a sidegrade compared to 0.19 but now I can kite hydras with a polearm by kickflipping off walls Do martial maneuvers work on invisible enemies the same way normal attacks do?
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Feb 23, 2017 22:21
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Carcer posted:Ok, that's good to know. The clouds are exactly the same.
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Feb 24, 2017 00:41
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fool_of_sound posted:@the devs: it would be cool if the mutation code was edited to make mutations more likely to level up existing mutations instead of granting new ones. It would give both positive and negative mutations a lot more character imo.
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Feb 24, 2017 00:41
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Floodkiller posted:The better fix action if you want clouds outside LoS to stick around would be to make clouds outside LoS do no damage, but have the AI treat it as if it would damage them. This would eliminate the possibility of killing monsters outside LoS while keeping the escape aspect. However, this now needs to be communicated to the player so they aren't frustrated that the clouds aren't killing properly (similar to how they may be frustrated now with the clouds disappearing quickly outside LOS).  I think this is a better workaround over deleting the clouds, yeah. It'd least allow you to re-position without completely wasting your MP (or a wand of clouds/lamp of fire). This would also be closer to how summons work, in that they turn catatonic when facing an enemy that is off-screen, but all it takes is one step in the right direction to allow your monsters to resume hitting the enemy.
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Feb 24, 2017 01:15
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much harder to discover. you can see your clouds vanish when you move out of LOS; you can't see them not doing damage. just mysterious!
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Feb 24, 2017 02:13
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Speaking of my love for crossbows, does anyone know the damage calculations for them? I'm not sure I can trust the wiki since there's some parts with str/dex weighting still on there, but as far as I can tell it doesn't show STR affecting it at all? Effectively how do I min-max dis poo poo
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Feb 24, 2017 02:13
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| # ? May 15, 2024 01:54 |
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Ranged combat is now identical to melee, except that you attack at range I believe
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Feb 24, 2017 02:20
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