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Blazed through the show, the books, and now the thread the last couple of weeks. Some observations: 1) The initial Babylon's Ashes consensus discussion here assumes the lost ships is some sort of inherent design/physical limitation of the gates. It seems much more likely it's an infection of whatever killed the race that built the gates. Naomi describes the triggering conditions as like a "wake." A wake not only disrupts other boats through impersonal physical phenomena, it can also attract predators below the surface looking for prey. My initial impression was that a certain level of gate usage attracts the mysterious energy/entities seen (but not by Miller and the protomolecule gate) in Cibola Burn. The real question is why the annoying researcher lady walking through the black spot didn't kill her or see the moving entities or phenomenon, but everyone on the ships who suffers the similar effect does. 2) I mostly like it, but the classical naming conventions and consistent associated Deep Meaning in the books are a bit much. Ok, I get it, Laconia System is the new Spartans. And they're from Mars and have the right mindset, so it's forgivable. But Julie Andromeda Mao is eaten by the protomolecule like her mythological namesake was chained to the rock for the Clash of the Titan's style monster to eat? Clarissa Melpomene Mao is tragic and has a good singing voice? Praxidike Meng sets out on a mission for justice/revenge? Anna's feel good colony is named Eudoxia? Of course it is. Ilus was going for some sort of Trojan thing, I guess. The death slugs were the horse? Ok, maybe they don't all make sense or lead to destined plot paths. But too many of them do. 3) While Amos and Avasarala are clearly in the top three, Praxidike is actually the best character. 
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Feb 20, 2017 05:24
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Wxhode posted:
At least Ganymede is the name of the place where people go to have babies. It could've been Eros! (I actually can't remember what Eros' role was pre-protomolecule, maybe that one was on the nose too actually)
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Feb 20, 2017 18:26
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Eros was Space Vegas. Casinos and cheap hotels. Presumably some nice areas because casinos, but not too nice given what went down there.
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Feb 20, 2017 18:39
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The Muffinlord posted:Eros was Space Vegas. Casinos and cheap hotels. Presumably some nice areas because casinos, but not too nice given what went down there. Space Atlantic City, maybe.
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Feb 20, 2017 18:58
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Toast Museum posted:Space Atlantic City, maybe. There's no need to be that mean to Eros.
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Feb 20, 2017 19:25
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The Muffinlord posted:There's no need to be that mean to Eros. It is the rear end in a top hat of the Belt.
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Feb 22, 2017 04:07
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Really dumb question but it's been a while since I listened to the audiobooks. Is there any chance that Miller was actually never/at some stage not hallucinating Julie but it was the protomolecule somehow, similar to how Miller is to Holden? I guess in the books it happened way before Miller had any interactions with the protomolecule. Then again physics and protomolecule.
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Feb 24, 2017 01:15
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Dessel posted:Really dumb question but it's been a while since I listened to the audiobooks. Is there any chance that Miller was actually never/at some stage not hallucinating Julie but it was the protomolecule somehow, similar to how Miller is to Holden? I guess in the books it happened way before Miller had any interactions with the protomolecule. Then again physics and protomolecule. I guess it's possible, but there's no indication of it. Didn't Miller "see" his ex-wife occasionally before any protomolecule stuff? Also, there was none of the weird smell or blue fireflies, as far as I can recall.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:17
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Finished Leviathan Wakes. Pretty fun read overall. Towards the end it did feel like they were breaking some of their rules though, especially regarding lag time with communication. Matter of fact the book doesn't really do a good job of showing the passage of time. The pacing is so fast that everything feels pretty instantaneous rather than the weeks and months at play. Plus I read it in about four sittings which is fast for me and probably had some effect on it. Pretty interesting in how dry and distant the book presents the massive solar system changing events. It's clearly interested in big picture stuff but retaining its tight focus POV. Also the protomolecule reminded me of The Master from Fallout.
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Feb 24, 2017 08:26
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Speaking of breaking it's own rules, there's something in the book about the slow zone (can't remember the title) that bugged me. The book makes a big deal about how the slow zone grinds to a halt because a marine shot a grenade at Holden, so the zone makes that the new top speed to accommodate. Then later on, someone shoots someone else in the head with a gun and they never mention why it's ok for the bullet to go fast. What's up with that
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Feb 24, 2017 20:03
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things that happen in the interior of the objects being towed toward the station aren't subject to the slowdown effect. that gets mentioned explicitly at one point.
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Feb 24, 2017 20:13
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Yeah, that's why the second slowdown is so catastrophic: everyone and everything inside the ships still has inertia once the speed limit drops to a walking pace.
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Feb 24, 2017 21:14
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The Muffinlord posted:Yeah, that's why the second slowdown is so catastrophic: everyone and everything inside the ships still has inertia once the speed limit drops to a walking pace. Oh, that makes sense then, I didn't even consider that. I must've missed the line that mentioned the exception to the rule.
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Feb 24, 2017 22:21
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Was the whole "Earth is extremely vulnerable to dropping an asteroid" thing played up as much in the earlier books? The show seems like it's been foreshadowing it really hard, though a lot of that is probably hindsight. In particular, I noticed a bit in the last episode where one of the military guys is quoting predicted casualty figures that are identical to the ones given in Babylon's Ashes.
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Feb 25, 2017 04:36
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So if Belters find it almost always fatal to enter a gravity well like a planet, how do they survive the same g forces that an Inner takes? The focus drugs can only do so much, and a Belter frame looks much more fragile than an Inner's.
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Feb 25, 2017 04:50
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They are probably ok for short intervals, but I remember it being mentioned somewhere that some ship or other couldn't accelerate as fast or as long because they had Belters on board.
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Feb 25, 2017 04:55
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Isn't that a thing with Marco's ship in the last book? In the real world also, acceleration along the axis of the spine (such as you'd get standing in a gravity well) is a lot less tolerable than acceleration along the front-to-back axis (like in a crash couch), since the heart needs to work a lot harder to pump blood along the entire length of the body in the former case.
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Feb 25, 2017 05:04
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The gel couch support for limited times is supposed to make up for the difference versus always fighting gravity by moving around without support being something many can't grow to tolerate.
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Feb 25, 2017 05:06
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A large proportion of Belters can adapt to living in Earth‐like gravity permanently (i.e. Ilus), with the right regimen. As for why Belters don’t suck more at space combat: Platystemon posted:Maybe they would get smashed in a fair fight, but that’s okay because they avoid fair fights.
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Feb 25, 2017 05:11
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Watched the first episode of the series. I take it that the stuff happening on Earth is from Caliban's War, or another book? Really surprised at how close the adaptation is sticking to the plot of the original, with only a few things (like Holden being on the Cant before Naomi and not being an XO already) being noticeable changes. The casting is also pretty drat good, for the most part. Miller and Alex look just like I thought they would, if a little younger. Holden looks like a grizzled Jay Baruchel. The only two I wasn't quite sold on were Ade and McDowell. McDowell I always thought of looking a bit like McCallister from The Simpsons, except Belter skinny, and I'm pretty sure Ade was black and part NIgerian. Guess they didn't want to mix her up with Naomi, who looks the part, but could stand to be about a foot taller. Oh, and whatever they thought they were doing with Havelock. As for the Belters, I like how they've explained that not all Belters are super tall in the show to justify using actors instead of combing the world for basketball players wanting to be actors. With a definite date set in the 23rd Century, it makes sense that there hasn't quite been a total physiological conversion like in the book, which has no determined dates relative to modern day.
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Feb 25, 2017 20:00
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Isn't Miller supposed to be a washed up, late middle aged and severely depressed in the books? His nose would be really red, and his eyes yellow + bloodshot due to the advanced alcoholic liver disease that is heavily implied. Thomas Jane is a good Miller, but he is nothing like book Miller. At any rate, terrifying machine of the old gods possessed by the spirit of Miller is the best version + voiced by TJ? Yes please.
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Feb 25, 2017 20:22
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Arcsquad12 posted:Watched the first episode of the series. I take it that the stuff happening on Earth is from Caliban's War, or another book? Really surprised at how close the adaptation is sticking to the plot of the original, with only a few things (like Holden being on the Cant before Naomi and not being an XO already) being noticeable changes. The casting is also pretty drat good, for the most part. Miller and Alex look just like I thought they would, if a little younger. Holden looks like a grizzled Jay Baruchel. The only two I wasn't quite sold on were Ade and McDowell. McDowell I always thought of looking a bit like McCallister from The Simpsons, except Belter skinny, and I'm pretty sure Ade was black and part NIgerian. Guess they didn't want to mix her up with Naomi, who looks the part, but could stand to be about a foot taller. Oh, and whatever they thought they were doing with Havelock. The stuff happening on Earth in the TV show is all original material. Nothing that happens in Caliban's War is moved up, but we get to see what some of the characters from that book were up to a bit early. Which is great, because you can never have too much Avasarala. Collateral posted:Isn't Miller supposed to be a washed up, late middle aged and severely depressed in the books? His nose would be really red, and his eyes yellow + bloodshot due to the advanced alcoholic liver disease that is heavily implied.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:39
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Collateral posted:Isn't Miller supposed to be a washed up, late middle aged and severely depressed in the books? His nose would be really red, and his eyes yellow + bloodshot due to the advanced alcoholic liver disease that is heavily implied. I ignore the poo poo out of the character descriptions for most characters, aside from Naomi being a large skinny human like thing cradling Holden in her limbs
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Feb 26, 2017 00:38
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Collateral posted:Isn't Miller supposed to be a washed up, late middle aged and severely depressed in the books? His nose would be really red, and his eyes yellow + bloodshot due to the advanced alcoholic liver disease that is heavily implied. It's established that there are pills you can take to sober up instantly and get back to work. Maybe in the future there's also a cure for severe alcoholism loving up your looks? 
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Feb 26, 2017 00:47
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Lord Hydronium posted:Was the whole "Earth is extremely vulnerable to dropping an asteroid" thing played up as much in the earlier books? The show seems like it's been foreshadowing it really hard, though a lot of that is probably hindsight. In particular, I noticed a bit in the last episode where one of the military guys is quoting predicted casualty figures that are identical to the ones given in Babylon's Ashes. Caliban's War posted:If we use this weapon, we will be creating a second Venus, committing genocide, and removing any moral argument against using weapons like accelerated asteroids against the Earth itself. Leviathan Wakes posted:"Anyone can kill a planet from orbit," Holden replied. "You don't even need bombs. Just push anvils out the airlock." Leviathan Wakes posted:"Mars might feel forced to nuke one of our stations to prove a point. But we can strap chemical rockets onto a couple hundred rocks the size of bunk beds and rain Armageddon down on Martian dome cities." Those are the ones I remember, but there could be more
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Feb 26, 2017 03:44
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Sarern posted:Those are the ones I remember, but there could be more Continuing my reread: LW is interesting in that despite Earth playing a major role in the plot, we don't get a perspective from there, and they're almost portrayed as antagonists. In fact, I'd forgotten just how mysterious they make Earth and its motives there; they keep silent throughout a good part of the book while Mars and the Belt do their thing, and one of the big plot twists halfway through is that the stealth ships are from Earth. Earth really only starts becoming more of a friendly presence once Avasarala steps into the picture, and while I get that it's better to introduce her earlier in the show, it does eliminate a bit of that "What the hell is Earth up to?" feeling that's present throughout LW. When I first read it, I didn't care much for the back half of LW. The first half is a hardish sci-fi neo-noir conspiracy thriller, and then the back half becomes about fighting nasty aliens. At the time, that was disappointing, as it felt like all the interesting political and social stuff was being set aside for a more stock sci-fi plotline. Of course, in retrospect the series never really abandons the political and social aspects, and eventually comes back to them in a big way in the recent books, so rereading it I enjoyed it a lot more. It still feels oddly episodic, though; we get the big events on Eros halfway through (and that was certainly a surprise to recall that it takes place so early), then a sidequest to the Anubis, then everyone goes to Thoth Station, and then back to Eros for more alien shenanigans. I think that really helped it play well on TV, though, especially compared to the slow burn of the more serialized first season. Miller really is a depressing sad sack in the books. Tom Jane's portrayal might not be entirely book accurate, but it was more entertaining to watch. Just started Caliban's War, and oddly, I remember almost nothing about this book.
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Feb 27, 2017 17:37
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I find the show refreshingly slower paced. The plot races so fast in the book that it felt like major developments got truncated and condensed to almost nothing. No time for reactions because you're onto the next incident so fast. I also like how they expanded a whole lot on the Donnager sequence, interrogating everyone and trying to pin Naomi as an OPA sleeper agent to cover Mars's rear end.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:03
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Yeah, the Donnager sequence feels really truncated in the book. I generally didn't mind the pace of S1, but I know that was a criticism for a lot of people who hadn't read the books that things don't really get going until Episode 4.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:15
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Lord Hydronium posted:When I first read it, I didn't care much for the back half of LW. The first half is a hardish sci-fi neo-noir conspiracy thriller, and then the back half becomes about fighting nasty aliens. At the time, that was disappointing, as it felt like all the interesting political and social stuff was being set aside for a more stock sci-fi plotline. Of course, in retrospect the series never really abandons the political and social aspects, and eventually comes back to them in a big way in the recent books, so rereading it I enjoyed it a lot more. I agree with this - on first reading, when I hit the protomolecule zombies I thought it had taken a hard turn into pulp trash. Rereading it knowing it's coming, I like it a lot more.
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Feb 28, 2017 01:53
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Notahippie posted:I agree with this - on first reading, when I hit the protomolecule zombies I thought it had taken a hard turn into pulp trash. Rereading it knowing it's coming, I like it a lot more. I'm really glad they cut out the whole "vomit zombie" angle. That always felt meh to me in the book.
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Feb 28, 2017 03:11
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The zombie fad came.... and is gone.
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Feb 28, 2017 03:13
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You can tell when a good series makes you pay attention to the details when they accidentally mix things up. I'm so used to ships generating gs through thrust that I'm noticing when the show forgets. EDIT: And I'm also the idiot who forgot magnetic boots. I also like how everyone treats holden like poo poo. He's kind of an impulsive jackass. EDIT AGAIN: Hah! Adam Jensen is a really terrible spy. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Mar 1, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 05:25
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I don’t like the show’s “Naomi lies to the crew and doesn’t destroy the Protomolecule sample” twist. She can’t do anything interesting with it unless there are major changes to the story (unlikely).
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Mar 3, 2017 02:20
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In the book they gave it Fred by this point. I assume she'll do the same.
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Mar 3, 2017 02:35
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Yea, this ep set up a subtheme of taking/reinforcing sides/teams, what with Alex arguing in favor of giving the sample to Mars (and then getting butthurt about Amos' Martian flag shenanigans) plus Naomi hiding the sample-torpedo and working with Drummer to help her take over the stolen nukes. Naomi then giving the sample to Fred would further align with this. Zach Handlen's analysis at AVClub had a salient related point in it about how the Roci crew is able to balance looking out for one another with keeping their own secrets/biases. Still feels like we're not quite done with the show's "have the crew arrive at the book's tightly-aligned unit/family, eventually" arc, either way. bitprophet fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Mar 3, 2017 |
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Mar 3, 2017 07:59
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Finished my reread of Caliban's War. Thoughts: This is an interesting one to reread, because despite the high ranking it usually gets in the series, it wasn't one of my favorites at first. It felt like it was retreading a lot of the same ground as Leviathan Wakes, with the same bad guys engaging in the same evil plot while we wait for the protomolecule to do its thing on Venus. But four books later and with the larger structure of the series in sight, I can see it now not as a rehash, but rather Leviathan Wakes Part II. And in that sense - wrapping up plot points from LW and expanding upon the setting it established - it's quite successful. Despite starting off with two chapters featuring alien encounters, CW gets us firmly back into the political part of the series, addressing that concern of mine from the end of LW. It expands our perspectives, giving Earth, Martian, and a different kind of Belter POVs in addition to Holden returning. It expands the narrative universe itself, taking us to Earth, Luna, Ganymede, and Io. Earth is one of the biggest additions to the series here. LW is mostly focused on the OPA, with Mars as deuteragonists and Earth as a shadowy semi-villainous presence; here, the OPA and Fred are basically bit players, and Earth gains a major importance to the plot that it'll carry throughout the rest of the series. The Corey duo are also a lot more comfortable with characters here. Outside of the two POV characters (who are pretty much archetypes anyway) characterization is a little thin in LW. CW isn't making massive leaps - Bobbie could have stepped out of any war movie, for example - but it does a nice job in expanding the range of personalities we deal with. Alex is still a cypher, but Amos and Naomi get some development. Avasarala is an entertaining character, but also gets some decent depth outside of her main personality tic. And Prax is probably the highlight; for someone that could easily have been a one-note stereotype, he ends up as one of the better side characters in the series. I love shadowy conspiracy stuff, so the plot of CW (and the early parts of Leviathan Wakes, and Nemesis Games) can't help but be my poo poo. There's this nice omnipresent sense of corruption hidden just under the surface. The bad guys in LW used stealth ships and hidden stations and appeared in person like once in the whole book. The villains in CW are always around, hiding in plain sight - they're just through the unmarked door on Ganymede, they're among the staff of the UN, in the end they're just a moon away from where the whole thing started. It creates the sense that this is a society and government where people like this don't even have to hide, because those in power will condone them anyway. One of the eeriest revelations of the book is that the attack that kills dozens on both sides and starts a system-wide war is just a weapons demo. The people in charge know what's happening from the very first page and just don't care. On that note, we get a mention at the end how the Martian faction bidding on the protomolecule got forgiven and the whole thing was pushed under the rug. We don't get any idea who was involved, but what do you want to bet Duarte was part of that? Also, a thought on the overall structure of the series: we get two books with Earth factions playing the role of the bad guys. Then two (more or less) standalones, followed by two books with Belter factions as the villains. Given the hints about Duarte and whatever's going on in Laconia, it makes sense to complete the set and have a Martian faction as the villains of the next two books. e: Wait, I got it, Bobbie is Ripley in Aliens. Right down to fighting the alien with power armor at the end to save a little girl. Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Mar 4, 2017 |
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Mar 4, 2017 04:54
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Given how the show has foreshadowed later book events very early, I wonder if we wont be introduced to Duarte earlier in the show than we did in the books. It does make a ton of sense that he would've been involved in the earlier attempt to get the Protomolecule as well.
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Mar 4, 2017 23:05
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Edit: The thumbnail got me excited for an x-files type novel.
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Mar 5, 2017 02:21
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Reread Abaddon's Gate, scattered thoughts: Okay, I know this is a disliked one. I never particularly hated it, but I thought it was the weakest at the time I read it. But honestly, rereading it, I don't know why, because I enjoyed it a lot this time. To be fair, it's a very different one from the two that preceded it. If later books had continued in the same direction, The Expanse would be a very different series. As a one-off, though (well, a two-off; Cibola Burn shares a lot in common with this one), I think it's an interesting experiment and a break from the usual. In fact, I think one of the strengths of this series is how each book tries something new; Leviathan's Wake is inspired by noir, Caliban's War a political thriller, and Abaddon's Gate is straight up Arthur C. Clarke. As a kid, I was a big fan of Clarke, and one of my favorites of his was Rendezvous with Rama. Rama is part of the "Big Dumb Object" subgenre, wherein characters encounter a mysterious, often massive object and the plot is mostly about interacting with it and encountering the mysterious wonders it provides (the monoliths in 2001 are another Clarke example). There's a lot of that DNA in Abaddon's Gate (and Cibola Burn). But a major difference is that in Rama and 2001, Clarke is about the mystery itself; the characters are thinly sketched and mostly passive observers for the weirdness that happens, and what plot there is is focused entirely on the object, its exploration and what it does in response. But this is The Expanse, and The Expanse is about the people inhabiting this universe. If there's one consistent theme in the series, it's that no matter how far they spread, what worlds they adapt to, or what strange things they encounter, people are still people - the same smart and stupid, tolerant and bigoted, peaceful and violent people they've been for all of human history. But it doesn't seem like that at first. The first half of AG is a fairly standard Big Dumb Object story - the characters all gather at the weird thing, explore it, and learn its rules. Holden gets most of this plotline, as he gets to explore the Ring Station and experience a legitimately cool  sequence where he watches a billions-year-old civilization rise and die. But then, AG goes in the opposite direction from Leviathan's Wake - where the latter started off as a small-scale mystery and ended up with alien craziness, AG starts off as big weird science fiction and ends with a gunfight and a woman seeking redemption. It takes its time to get there, though. AG is not a particularly plotty novel - the major plot points can be boiled down to a handful, and the rest of the novel is a lot of characterization and thoughts on the nature of humanity and how it interacts with the unknown. How much you like the latter I supposed depends on how much you like the characters and their journey.Bull I can take or leave - he's basically a pair of eyes onboard the Behemoth, and he does that job fine, but doesn't really stand out in any way. I think Pa might have been more interesting here instead. Holden is still Holden, and while a big part of his arc is admitting his faults to himself, how much you like that I imagine depends on how much you can tolerate him until he gets there. Anna I actually enjoyed a lot, which surprised me because I didn't remember much about her from the first read-through. And that leaves Clarissa, who is not only easily the most multi-dimensional villain in the series (which to be fair isn't saying a lot), but also probably one of the most developed arcs of...anyone in the series, I figure. Holden is the only other one really in contention. Either way, I enjoyed Clarissa's arc a lot. Together they make for a good cross-section of personalities and points of view - Clarissa (at first) gives us the side of Ashford and Cortez, the cynical view of humanity as frightened apes attacking things they don't understand, while Anna (and Holden, eventually) is the side of humanity that sees wonder in the universe and tries to make the best of a bad situation. I talked before about how the book starts big and ends small, but that narrative structure is also reflected very literally, in a way that doesn't really happen anywhere else in the series. The characters all start off scattered and converge - and then keep converging, as both the physical scale of their separation and the scope of the plot itself narrow further in from many worlds, to many scattered ships, to many ships in close proximity, to one ship, to a single room. It's not, of course, the first or last time that characters or plotlines converge, but the continuous shrinking of the scale of the novel and the way that's reflected in many aspects of the narrative makes for a unique and interesting structure. Some thoughts on overall series structure: The Expanse is interesting in that there's two overlapping patterns. There's a typical three-act structure, in which LW-AG form the first act, about the arrival of the protomolecule to humanity and what comes of it, leading to the opening of the gates; then CB-BA are the second act, about how the gates change humanity and how they choose to react to it, which ends with the agreement at the end of BA on the new political order; then finally, I imagine the last three will be about that new order and what it means for the future. But on top of that, there's a series of duologies - LW and CW, and NG and BA, are basically two parters, with AG and CB forming a more thematic duology about how people react to the unknown. These are smaller-scale, heavier on the alien stuff, and more standalone from the larger political plot. Again, I can see why this could be alarming without knowledge of the next two novels; AG and CB at first look like a move away from the grand hardish space opera. In retrospect, it's for the better that the series doesn't go entirely this way, though as I said I enjoy the break of something different. Finally (and sorry for all the words), this book is going to be a hell of a thing to adapt. We have no Earth plot, and in fact, nothing plotwise outside of a handful of ships and the station. And unlike Leviathan's Wake, there's no real room for an outside plot, as a big part of the novel is everyone being cut off inside the slow zone. You could have the occasional cutaway to Avasarala wondering what the hell is going on, I suppose, and I suspect Bobbie will be on one of the Martian ships in the show. CB is an even bigger challenge, but I'll wait until rereading that to speculate.
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Mar 6, 2017 23:12
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Melba Alzbeta Ko is the ugly caterpillar. Peaches is cool. 
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Mar 6, 2017 23:19
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