|
Which Thread Title shall we name this new thread? This poll is closed. |
|||
|---|---|---|---|
| Independence Day 2: Resturgeonce |
|
44 | 21.36% |
| ScotPol - Unclustering this gently caress |
|
19 | 9.22% |
| Trainspotting 2: Independence is my heroin |
|
9 | 4.37% |
| Indyref II: Boris hosed a Dead Country |
|
14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol: Wings over Bullshit |
|
8 | 3.88% |
| Independence 2: Cameron Lied, UK Died |
|
24 | 11.65% |
| Scotpol IV: I Vow To Flee My Country |
|
14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol - A twice in a generation thread |
|
17 | 8.25% |
| ScotPol - Where Everything's hosed Up and the Referendums Don't Matter |
|
15 | 7.28% |
| ScotPol Thread: Dependence Referendum Incoming |
|
2 | 0.97% |
| Indyref II: The Scottish Insturgeoncy |
|
10 | 4.85% |
| ScotPol Thread: Act of European Union |
|
5 | 2.43% |
| ScotPol - Like Game of Thrones only we wish we would all die |
|
25 | 12.14% |
| Total: | 206 votes | ||
|
Jedit posted:Yes? I said they were idiots, not that they were malicious. They also can't admit they were wrong about independence, for any number of reasons, but that's just another kind of stupidity. You implied that they weren't fixing business rates because they didn't want to break the white paper. I am saying they aren't fixing it because no-one wants to admit they have screwed up. Anyway you are not wrong here, and at least they are consistent.
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 11:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 03:03 |
|
|
Coohoolin posted:The only way anyone else will win in Scotland is if it's an independent country, otherwise the constitutional issue will keep defining political lines and unionists are split between three parties. Losing a second independence referendum would kill the nationalist movement for a few decades.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 11:26
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:Losing a second independence referendum would kill the nationalist movement for a few decades. No it wouldn't.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 11:27
|
|
|
It would certainly kill the idea of Independence, unless the UK government manages to do something more destructive than Brexit somehow. The SNP as a party would keep lurching along, much like the Parti Quebecois, for maybe a another parliament before the party fractures into hardliners and soft-nationalists.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 11:37
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:Losing a second independence referendum would kill the nationalist movement for a few decades. Losing the first one didn't, so why would a second? How can you kill that which has no life?
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 11:41
|
|
|
Zalakwe posted:You implied that they weren't fixing business rates because they didn't want to break the white paper. I am saying they aren't fixing it because no-one wants to admit they have screwed up. Anyway you are not wrong here, and at least they are consistent. It's not two separate things, just two different ways to be stupid. Gonzo - I'd look to the source of the cuts. If they originate in Holyrood, then your course is obvious. If they originate in Westminster, then they would have been made whoever was in charge.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 11:42
|
|
|
Gonzo McFee posted:No it wouldn't. It definitely would. The SNP will know it's the last chance saloon. See Canada.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 11:42
|
|
|
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay-peter-geoghegan/secretive-dup-brexit-donor-links-to-saudi-intelligence-service It's mostly related to the DUP's secret doners but the group that sent major donations to the DUP during Brexit is The Consititutional Research Council which is chaired by Scottish Tory Richard Cook, which cook has very strong links with Saudi Aabia. A few MSPs are questioning their concerns about transparency, especially if it comes to another Indyref again.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 18:48
|
|
|
So, since it seems inevitable that a second independence referendum will be called by the SNP at their party conference in mid-March: Would it be better to 1. call it early, with-or-without the say-so of the British Government, leading to an argument fixated upon Britain and the EU's relative positions. 2. call it late, in about 18 months' time, leading to an argument fixated on Britain and the EU's relative positions then, plus some idea of federalism introduced by Labour? (edited for readability x2) Juliet Whisky fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Feb 24, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 23:21
|
|
|
There can't be a referendum without the say-so of the British government.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 23:31
|
|
|
I believe Catalunya begs to differ.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 23:37
|
|
|
Juliet Whisky posted:I believe Catalunya begs to differ. That's not a great example of an effective referendum
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 23:57
|
|
|
Juliet Whisky posted:I believe Catalunya begs to differ. Catalonia voted for independence in an unofficial refrendum. Catalonia isn't independent.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 23:58
|
|
|
I don't think there's been any significant rumblings by the UK government towards blocking another referendum. That could all change if Yes looks like it would win though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 00:02
|
|
|
I can't see it being 'blocked' either but I think the timing, campaign duration and wording of it will be a much tougher negotiation for the snp than it was with Cameron. Demanding one is a major gamble for the snp - one they may be pushed into before they really want it. Whenever this is - if it happens - it's the last chance saloon for Scottish nationalism.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 00:05
|
|
|
I don't see May quibbling over the timing of the referendum too much. As for the wording, that'll be up to the Electoral Commission and they found no problem with the revised wording used for the 2014 referendum. IIRC, the wording used was actually their suggestion. Honestly, if the SNP can't win a referendum after the most destructive decision in the nation's recent history and an almost guaranteed 8 years of Tory rule then it simply isn't meant to be.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 00:13
|
|
|
I can't see there being a two year campaign period again - though nobody might want that - and i don't see why the electoral commission would revert to the format of the first referendum when they opted for a a 'leave/remain' format for EUref. I think the polls showing no shift in favour of independence despite the Brexit result will be a major concern for the SNP.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 00:17
|
|
|
Leggsy posted:I don't see May quibbling over the timing of the referendum too much. As for the wording, that'll be up to the Electoral Commission and they found no problem with the revised wording used for the 2014 referendum. IIRC, the wording used was actually their suggestion. I don't see her quibbling because I don't think she would agree to another one so soon
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 00:47
|
|
|
Well I'm gonna be including parcel o rogues in every setlist, surely that will win us the next referendum.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 00:54
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:I can't see there being a two year campaign period again - though nobody might want that - and i don't see why the electoral commission would revert to the format of the first referendum when they opted for a a 'leave/remain' format for EUref. Well there was a shift. It's No/Remain voters changing to Yes and Yes/Leave voters going No. Which didn't really change anything in the latest polls. Speaking of polls. The latest one has place of birth as a field which is a good thing to check to see where people born outisde of Scotland votes tend to go more often. If born Scots were to only have the vote the gap without DK would shortern to 4 for No% rather then 10 for No% Diffirence is due to the English being the biggest born elsewhere nationality with 60 of 78 (77%) voting No and people outside of UK going 36 of 67 (54%) for Yes. The outside of UK votes consists of Europeans voting Yes with 18 of 21 (87%) and outside of Europe in general favouring towards No in general with 14 of 26 (56%). I don't know where the extra 35 voters are from as they are not listed as neither Europe/Scot/UK/Outside Europe...Unless some fucknugget forgot about the Europeans that come from a country that isn't in the EU. http://www.panelbase.com/media/polls/F10131Wingstablesforpublication170217.pdf The SNP are possibly better having just born-Scots vote if they want a better chance of winning the referendum. Not sure if that would help their chances including oversea Scots but the only way to find that out is somehow doing a International poll  EDIT: Seems like an Indy Scot within the EU is the preferable choice with all voters included together with 31% if the option of Scotland in UK/EU was a thing because it splits the vote between the UK/EU % UK/-EU crowd. Without the both option, the UK/-EU has 43% of all voters with 37% of being for Indy & EU and 11% for Scotland without EU. No idea where what it would be like if it was only UK/-EU & Scot/EU but if looking at the vote for indy is any reference is that people for Indy out of the EU will go with the UK out of the EU if the former is not an option. It seems that the best possible path to get those indy voters that don't want in the EU to possibly vote Yes is to...have another Referendum on EU membership in a Indy Scotland which has to happen anyways but depends if the main indy group uses that to convince people. Extreme0 fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Feb 25, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 01:09
|
|
|
That doesn't sound very civic. Though it would be interesting if every born Scot in the entire UK had a vote.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 01:19
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:That doesn't sound very civic. Facts don't give a poo poo about what's civic or not. Honestly though it depends on how many Scots versus Scots outside of the UK is like.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 01:22
|
|
|
I know it was just a thought experiment, but embracing ethnic nationalism would cause me to campaign for the Union as heavily as I campaigned for Independence. It has no place in any society anywhere. English-born Scots are as entitled to an opinion as anyone else.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 01:22
|
|
|
Extreme0 posted:Facts don't give a poo poo about what's civic or not. Ok but it would be tricky for the SNP to only give a vote to people born in Scotland when their shtick is that their nationalism is the 'good' sort.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 01:23
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:Ok but it would be tricky for the SNP to only give a vote to people born in Scotland when their shtick is that their nationalism is the 'good' sort. You do know that he isn't a policy maker for the SNP, right? And that it was a thought experiment, not a proposal? You understand hypotheticals, don't you Pissflaps?
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 01:26
|
|
|
mehall posted:You do know that he isn't a policy maker for the SNP, right? Erm yes? I'm responding to his hypothetical scenario. You understand what the word 'would' means, right?
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 01:28
|
|
|
Leggsy posted:I know it was just a thought experiment, but embracing ethnic nationalism would cause me to campaign for the Union as heavily as I campaigned for Independence. It has no place in any society anywhere. English-born Scots are as entitled to an opinion as anyone else. Shame you didn't campaign heavily for EU nationals to be given a vote in the EU referendum then. In all seriousness I wouldn't mind because it would be amusing karma for the Tories not giving EU nationals the vote because they knew they would likely stop Brexit. Otherwise I would be against having it solely Scots only. Fair's fair right? Pissflaps posted:Ok but it would be tricky for the SNP to only give a vote to people born in Scotland when their shtick is that their nationalism is the 'good' sort. Nationalism isn't good but Brexit was helped by forbidding those who aren't born in the UK to vote in the EU referendum. Sounds like Ethnic Nationalism to me.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 01:35
|
|
|
I'd be more than happy for only 'ethnic scots' to be allowed to vote because it would guarantee that No/Remain wins.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 01:38
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:I'd be more than happy for only 'ethnic scots' to be allowed to vote because it would guarantee that No/Remain wins. No would win regardless if everyone was allowed to vote too if the tables suggest anything.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 01:41
|
|
|
Leggsy posted:I know it was just a thought experiment, but embracing ethnic nationalism would cause me to campaign for the Union as heavily as I campaigned for Independence. It has no place in any society anywhere. English-born Scots are as entitled to an opinion as anyone else. I liked the 2014 vote for including everyone who lived in Scotland from 16 and older. Everyone I knew from EU countries voted 'Yes'. Also, according to polls, the vast majority of teenage voters went indy as per http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...16-9745081.html The case against these people hasn't been made in Scotland, at all, before or after the referendum, to our credit. I am extremely uncomfortable with 'nationalism' but I can see how our nationalism is different.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 01:42
|
|
|
I expect most nationalists of all persuasions do.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 01:42
|
|
|
Extreme0 posted:Nationalism isn't good but Brexit was helped by forbidding those who aren't born in the UK to vote in the EU referendum. Sounds like Ethnic Nationalism to me. Find us the person here that thinks Brexit is a good thing and not centred on racism?
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 02:00
|
|
|
Extreme0 posted:
funny, I was born in Canada and they let me almost like doing it based on citizenship is the legal way and not some insane literal no true scotsman race qualifier
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 02:07
|
|
|
What's so insane about letting EU citizens resident in Scotland vote?
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 12:40
|
|
|
Coohoolin posted:What's so insane about letting EU citizens resident in Scotland vote? I assume CoolCab was talking about this Extreme0 posted:The SNP are possibly better having just born-Scots vote if they want a better chance of winning the referendum. which for the record it doesn't seem like anyone is actually seriously advocating, just getting that in before someone brings up their memory of it in a few months to justify calling half the thread racist or whatever
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 12:46
|
|
|
Yeah tbf the people here who used to try to silence others for 'not being Scottish enough' seem to have gone underground for the moment.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 12:48
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:Yeah tbf the people here who used to try to silence others for 'not being Scottish enough' seem to have gone underground for the moment. Why is your av the guy who was racist to Jamie Foxx? What have you done now?
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 13:10
|
|
|
Coohoolin posted:What's so insane about letting EU citizens resident in Scotland vote? What's so insane about letting Scottish people outside of Scotland vote?
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 14:41
|
|
|
I don't know if you're joking but that's not even slightly comparable.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 15:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 03:03 |
|
|
Extreme0 posted:The SNP are possibly better having just born-Scots vote if they want a better chance of winning the referendum. That's quite the bombshell.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 16:08
|
|
