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I'd totally good with Perez not winning chair since for whatever stupid reason it's become the One Election to Rule Them All for a vocal segment of motivated people and appeasing them is cool and good, but if those people now hate him forever as some kind of evil corporate stooge and drive him out of politics forever, it'll be yet another example of the left shooting itself pointlessly in the foot. All the chair candidates have been falling all over themselves to compliment each other and reiterate how much they respect one another, but (and this is one way this race does have parallels with last year's primary) a lot of people don't seem to have picked up that message.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:04
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Feb 25, 2017 18:08
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If that happens they should both be the chair and divide the office with a line, I Love Lucy style.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:10
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Quorum posted:I'd totally good with Perez not winning chair since for whatever stupid reason it's become the One Election to Rule Them All for a vocal segment of motivated people and appeasing them is cool and good, but if those people now hate him forever as some kind of evil corporate stooge and drive him out of politics forever, it'll be yet another example of the left shooting itself pointlessly in the foot. All the chair candidates have been falling all over themselves to compliment each other and reiterate how much they respect one another, but (and this is one way this race does have parallels with last year's primary) a lot of people don't seem to have picked up that message. he deserves to be driven out of politics cause of his friendliness towards banks after they got done loving this nation over.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:11
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I'm not watching but lmao did they really have a loving coal lobbyist make the pitch for Perez? talk about optics
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Feb 25, 2017 18:11
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Quorum posted:All the chair candidates have been falling all over themselves to compliment each other and reiterate how much they respect one another, but (and this is one way this race does have parallels with last year's primary) a lot of people don't seem to have picked up that message. This vote is not about compliments, it's about whether the party will signal a shift away from the big donor and consultant classes. If/when Perez wins, it will not matter that Ellison is praising him up and down and begging Bernie supporters to recognize him as a progressive. They will feel that the party takes their support for granted and they will leave it, myself included.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:11
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Quorum posted:I'd totally good with Perez not winning chair since for whatever stupid reason it's become the One Election to Rule Them All for a vocal segment of motivated people and appeasing them is cool and good, but if those people now hate him forever as some kind of evil corporate stooge and drive him out of politics forever, it'll be yet another example of the left shooting itself pointlessly in the foot. All the chair candidates have been falling all over themselves to compliment each other and reiterate how much they respect one another, but (and this is one way this race does have parallels with last year's primary) a lot of people don't seem to have picked up that message. We don't want candidates who pal around we want crazy strong leadership that shits on its opponentss openly like some kind of lefty trump.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:13
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Yeah im done with,the democrats if ellison gets snubbed over a bucktoothed clintonite stooge like perez. Question is how long will it take to get a new or existing 3rd party off the ground and how hard will the democrats struggle in their death throes
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Feb 25, 2017 18:15
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Quorum posted:I'd totally good with Perez not winning chair since for whatever stupid reason it's become the One Election to Rule Them All for a vocal segment of motivated people and appeasing them is cool and good, but if those people now hate him forever as some kind of evil corporate stooge and drive him out of politics forever, it'll be yet another example of the left shooting itself pointlessly in the foot. All the chair candidates have been falling all over themselves to compliment each other and reiterate how much they respect one another, but (and this is one way this race does have parallels with last year's primary) a lot of people don't seem to have picked up that message. I'll be fine with him if he loses. If he wins, you're drat sure my local DNC is getting an earful and there'll probably be more vicious primaries. Also fulcrum it's incredibly obvious to anyone with half a brain that Perez was put forward by the Obama wing because they fear Sanders having any power whatsoever. Sorry you have to cast material reality as a conspiracy to have your arguments make any sense.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:17
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Quorum posted:I'd totally good with Perez not winning chair since for whatever stupid reason it's become the One Election to Rule Them All for a vocal segment of motivated people and appeasing them is cool and good, but if those people now hate him forever as some kind of evil corporate stooge and drive him out of politics forever, it'll be yet another example of the left shooting itself pointlessly in the foot. All the chair candidates have been falling all over themselves to compliment each other and reiterate how much they respect one another, but (and this is one way this race does have parallels with last year's primary) a lot of people don't seem to have picked up that message. This is how I feel. I hope Ellison wins because if he doesn't the amount of internet complaining is going to be unbearable but the degree to which people have decided to hate Tom Perez, who has done actual concrete things to improve workers rights and civil rights in this country, is really stupid.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:19
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if perez wins i'm thinking of not even bothering voting downticket dem anymore. if bernie or another good dem endorses someone i can vote for, sure. but the dem label is worthless as an indicator of what i'm voting for anymore, since centrist republicans are welcome (and loved) under the dem tent
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Feb 25, 2017 18:20
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Perez: actually trump
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Feb 25, 2017 18:22
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Uncle Wemus posted:We don't want candidates who pal around we want crazy strong leadership that shits on its opponentss openly like some kind of lefty trump. In that case you must not like Ellison cuz he's been very glowing about Perez
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Feb 25, 2017 18:24
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Quorum posted:In that case you must not like Ellison cuz he's been very glowing about Perez Did you hear Ellison is such a bad candidate, he pals around with Corporate Stooge Tim Perez? Vote Perez
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Feb 25, 2017 18:25
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Quorum posted:In that case you must not like Ellison cuz he's been very glowing about Perez Im a butt-man
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Feb 25, 2017 18:25
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https://twitter.com/JStein_Vox/status/835535173131374593
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Feb 25, 2017 18:26
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Uncle Wemus posted:Im a butt-man Hell same
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Feb 25, 2017 18:27
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Jitzu_the_Monk posted:This vote is not about compliments, it's about whether the party will signal a shift away from the big donor and consultant classes. If/when Perez wins, it will not matter that Ellison is praising him up and down and begging Bernie supporters to recognize him as a progressive. They will feel that the party takes their support for granted and they will leave it, myself included. I'll be leaving the dems too. I honestly think that if they don't make concessions to the progressive wing here, the Democrats will die as a party. Every single person who I've talked to about this is fed up and looking at jumping ship.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:30
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I don't think Perez is anywhere near as bad as Trump, or the Democrats are as bad, either. But that's not enough to make me vote for them.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:32
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maou shoujo posted:I honestly think that if they don't make concessions to the progressive wing here, the Democrats will die as a party. Every single person who I've talked to about this is fed up and looking at jumping ship. I have to agree. The lesson from 2016 should be about capturing that Bernie energy and running with it, it's a drat shame to watch the Democrats run back to their corporate overlords.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:36
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maou shoujo posted:I'll be leaving the dems too. I doubt even 10% of Democratic voters have the faintest idea about the goings on of this chairmanship election. The Democrats are not dying as a party.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:40
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No the party is actually looking very healthy imho
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Feb 25, 2017 18:41
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WampaLord posted:I have to agree. The lesson from 2016 should be about capturing that Bernie energy and running with it, it's a drat shame to watch the Democrats run back to their corporate overlords. Actually, I've been told that Bernie supporters held their noses and voted for Hillary at an historic rate, and she still lost to Trump, so it's pretty obvious that courting Bernie supporters isn't the answer.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:43
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GyroNinja posted:Actually, I've been told that Bernie supporters held their noses and voted for Hillary at an historic rate, and she still lost to Trump, so it's pretty obvious that courting Bernie supporters isn't the answer. It's not just the bernie supporters. It's the direction they want to take the party away from the losing they have been doing the last 8 years.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:45
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fsif posted:The Democrats are not dying as a party. The number of seats they hold at all levels of government seems to suggest otherwise. It's not so much "Perez winning means the dems are dead," it's more "the dems are already way on the backfoot, and need all the support they can get to regain any semblance of power." Burning a bunch of bridges to highly motivated sections of the base over a largely symbolic vote would be a huge show of incompetence. edit; As people like even Chuck Schumer seem to agree with.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:47
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WampaLord posted:I have to agree. The lesson from 2016 should be about capturing that Bernie energy and running with it, it's a drat shame to watch the Democrats run back to their corporate overlords. This is what bothers me. I will be happy if Ellison wins. I will not be upset if Perez loses! But I think it is completely unfair to tar Perez, who pushed through labor reforms that were vehemently opposed by businesses, as a corporate stooge.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:50
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Badger of Basra posted:This is what bothers me. I will be happy if Ellison wins. I will not be upset if Perez loses! But I think it is completely unfair to tar Perez, who pushed through labor reforms that were vehemently opposed by businesses, as a corporate stooge. The issue isn't Perez himself. It's that he's in the race to begin with.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:51
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Badger of Basra posted:This is what bothers me. I will be happy if Ellison wins. I will not be upset if Perez loses! But I think it is completely unfair to tar Perez, who pushed through labor reforms that were vehemently opposed by businesses, as a corporate stooge. I am not specifically calling Perez a corporate overlord, more the symbolic act of electing him is just another step towards running back to the center.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:51
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Yall need to get behind the Butt 
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Feb 25, 2017 18:51
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Badger of Basra posted:This is what bothers me. I will be happy if Ellison wins. I will not be upset if Perez loses! But I think it is completely unfair to tar Perez, who pushed through labor reforms that were vehemently opposed by businesses, as a corporate stooge. he gave big banks big favors during his tenure at the DoJ and DoL. it's perfectly fair to tar him as a stooge, since he choose to take it easy on extremely criminal financiers.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:51
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GyroNinja posted:Actually, I've been told that Bernie supporters held their noses and voted for Hillary at an historic rate, and she still lost to Trump, so it's pretty obvious that courting Bernie supporters isn't the answer. The Bernie supporters who voted at all in the general election (myself included) largely held their nose and voted for Hillary. But her GOTV effort among the Democratic base was obviously insufficient in almost all of the swing states. Some Bernie supporters stayed home, especially those who were disgusted with DNC bias during the primary, and then later the Tim Kaine pick. HRC's campaign strategy felt like a pitch to barely extant moderate Republicans.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:52
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Badger of Basra posted:This is what bothers me. I will be happy if Ellison wins. I will not be upset if Perez loses! But I think it is completely unfair to tar Perez, who pushed through labor reforms that were vehemently opposed by businesses, as a corporate stooge. So here's a question for you then: If Perez is just as progressive as Ellison, why bother to field him at all?
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Feb 25, 2017 18:54
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z0glin Warchief posted:The number of seats they hold at all levels of government seems to suggest otherwise. They've had a horrible stretch of six years or so and have been stymied by the incompetence and complacency of their leaders, but they're going to die as a political party. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot once again with a Perez nominee, but anyone predicting the collapse of the two-party system over this is seriously overstating its significance.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:55
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:So here's a question for you then: If Perez is just as progressive as Ellison, why bother to field him at all? They're not identical. Perez has strengths with labor that Ellison lacks. Also, crucially, Hillary lost union votes like crazy, and not just to low turnout. Pipefitters went for Trump. We need the trade unions, and badly.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:56
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:So here's a question for you then: If Perez is just as progressive as Ellison, why bother to field him at all? I mean, his background is more executive and administrative than Ellison's legislative experience, and some might argue that this makes him more suited for a largely administrative role. Personally I think Ellison could probably pick up what he needed pretty quickly (provided he doesn't try to part-time it line Schultz did) but it's not like it's an imagined consideration for people worried about acting as quickly and efficiently to rebuild institutions as possible.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:57
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fsif posted:They've had a horrible stretch of six years or so and have been stymied by the incompetence and complacency of their leaders, but they're going to die as a political party. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot once again with a Perez nominee, but anyone predicting the collapse of the two-party system over this is seriously overstating its significance. They won't technically die, they will just continue to hemorrhage every level of government except the presidency which will be won every now and then thanks to a well timed economic crash.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:57
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I said this in the Clinton kvetching thread after the election: is it possible that the party moving toward your preferred ideology will not result in better electoral prospects? It's quite a coincidence that leftists believe that Ellison winning will inevitably lead to electoral gains, but Perez winning will inevitably cause the base to abandon the Democratic Party and mealy-mouthed centrists will lead to its collapse. As someone who supported Sanders and supports Ellison as chair and thinks the party should move leftward (although Perez being chair will definitely lead to that too), I also recognize the risk of the Democratic Party embracing democratic socialism. It's a risk I'm more than willing to take, but it's a risk nonetheless.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:58
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Edible Hat posted:I said this in the Clinton kvetching thread after the election: is it possible that the party moving toward your preferred ideology will not result in better electoral prospects? It's quite a coincidence that leftists believe that Ellison winning will inevitably lead to electoral gains, but Perez winning will inevitably cause the base to abandon the Democratic Party and mealy-mouthed centrists will lead to its collapse. As someone who supported Sanders and supports Ellison as chair and thinks the party should move leftward (although Perez being chair will definitely lead to that too), I also recognize the risk of the Democratic Party embracing democratic socialism. It's a risk I'm more than willing to take, but it's a risk nonetheless. What is the risk? What else is left to lose?
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Feb 25, 2017 18:58
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perhaps, and stay with me here, perez has personal agency in his actions and sees the election as a friendly competition regarding the direction the two want to take their political futures and not as a venue from which to please corporations
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Feb 25, 2017 18:59
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:So here's a question for you then: If Perez is just as progressive as Ellison, why bother to field him at all? Because Ellison has "bad optics." i.e., he's a muslim and brown and electing him lets Trump label the Democrats as the Muslim Party which will, fairly or no, chase away a lot of potential voters and encourage a lot of Republican voter turnout. Like we live in a world where like it or not Trump's muslim ban is *popular*
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Feb 25, 2017 18:59
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