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So if I were to just install the C wire where would it go to exactly? Do I still need that second transformer near by because running back down to my furnace isn't as viable as I wish it was? And no my tstat power is 24v, that much I tested and the general idea i've read around is that you get a second transformer for the continuous power to keep a nest running as only two wire system will not have continuous power or something. As this isn't a suggested solution by nest I am having a hard time finding a concrete answer.
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Feb 18, 2017 15:11
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If you only have a two-wire system I assume that means you have heat with no separate fan control. Is that correct? In that case one of the two wires should be carrying 24 volts AC (Rh) and the other one is the signal line to operate the heat (W). Nest is compatible with this, though any installation without a C wire may have erratic behavior when the Nest goes to charge.
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Feb 18, 2017 17:27
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knowonecanknow posted:So if I were to just install the C wire where would it go to exactly? Do I still need that second transformer near by because running back down to my furnace isn't as viable as I wish it was? And no my tstat power is 24v, that much I tested and the general idea i've read around is that you get a second transformer for the continuous power to keep a nest running as only two wire system will not have continuous power or something. As this isn't a suggested solution by nest I am having a hard time finding a concrete answer. First off, does your system have a separate transformer, or is it built into the circuit board? If you have the first option, the transformer should have a C wire on it. If not, you'd have to replace it with a 24V transformer with one. If you have the second option, there should be a C screw terminal on the board. The biggest problem you'll have is finding wire. Thermostat cable usually comes in 2, 5 and 7 wire. There is 3 wire, but it's hard to find. You may have to upgrade to 5-wire and just leave 2 detached. Or if you're lazy and your existing cable is still in good condition, just run a second 2-wire cable and not use one of the wires.
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Feb 18, 2017 18:44
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Hello quick question for CU on a ceiling light. I have 4 14-2 (8?) lines + ceiling light (2) + ground sooo 11x2=22? Or am I missing something?
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Feb 18, 2017 19:12
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:Well be careful what you wish for. I doodled an awful drawing, then my scanner died, and I was forced to try this other one that shoved it over to me as a PDF and took... liberties with it: Well, under a generator at least, you would. Gennies like that are set up with a big switch in front of your panel to switch from electric company power to genny power. That way, you don't backfeed the lines and shock the linesmen working outside. That means you need line going from the genny to the switch and a separate line from your panel to your garage. I'm not sure about PV arrays though. I would imagine that they would go in front of your panel, but I'm not sure. Could someone more knowledgeable help me out? It looks like you got the right idea for your plan. The pain in the butt part will be digging, so try and keep it to a minimum. Also, if that shed is that far out, you might need to start worrying about voltage drop.
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Feb 18, 2017 19:25
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bef posted:Hello quick question for CU on a ceiling light. I have 4 14-2 (8?) lines + ceiling light (2) + ground sooo 11x2=22? Or am I missing something? Devices don't count toward box fill. 9 14-gauge wires x 2 in2/14-gauge wire = 18 in2.
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Feb 18, 2017 19:28
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Ok I've been looking at this http://m.ecmweb.com/code-basics/box-fill-calculations and it's kinda conflicting with what you just said? Maybe not ceiling lights but doesn't this apply to switches/receptacles?
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Feb 18, 2017 19:40
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kid sinister posted:Well, under a generator at least, you would. Gennies like that are set up with a big switch in front of your panel to switch from electric company power to genny power. That way, you don't backfeed the lines and shock the linesmen working outside. That means you need line going from the genny to the switch and a separate line from your panel to your garage. I'm not sure about PV arrays though. I would imagine that they would go in front of your panel, but I'm not sure. Could someone more knowledgeable help me out? Inverters that are grid-tied use the frequency of the mains to drive the conversion-- if there is a loss of power, the inverter shuts off so as to prevent shocking the linesmen. My actual wiring set up is: [panels]---[DC Disconnect]---[Inverter]---[Solar meter]---[AC Disconnect]---[Breaker in main panel].
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Feb 18, 2017 19:44
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kid sinister posted:First off, does your system have a separate transformer, or is it built into the circuit board? If you have the first option, the transformer should have a C wire on it. If not, you'd have to replace it with a 24V transformer with one. If you have the second option, there should be a C screw terminal on the board. I guess it comes back to just doing this right and running the extra wires. What will my success rate be if I just cut the two wires off at the furnace and attach a new 5 wire run to the old 2 wires and pull?
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Feb 18, 2017 20:13
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kid sinister posted:I'm not sure about PV arrays though. I would imagine that they would go in front of your panel, but I'm not sure. Could someone more knowledgeable help me out? The thing about PV grid interconnection is that installations are not standardized, and different utilities may have different requirements. Qwijib0 says his utility requires a DC disconnect. My co-op and the one other local co-op I'm familiar with require an AC disconnect within 10 feet of our meterbase. Another thing is don't take for granted the auto shut down of the inverter. I sat in a 2 hour question and answer from (the other local co-op I mentioned being familiar with), and their first check before allowing interconnection is to pull the meter with the sun out, and check voltage on the consumer side of the meterbase. If they read 1 volt line-to-neutral they disconnect utility power until repairs are made or the PV array is removed. I asked if he had failed any installations on this test and he says "Yes, in fact several."  They also re-test unannounced once annually.
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Feb 18, 2017 20:14
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bef posted:Ok I've been looking at this http://m.ecmweb.com/code-basics/box-fill-calculations and it's kinda conflicting with what you just said? Maybe not ceiling lights but doesn't this apply to switches/receptacles? Switches and receptacles do. I suppose I should have said lighting devices don't count. Well, that's wrong too. Some heavy chandelier mounting methods count as one conductor. knowonecanknow posted:I guess it comes back to just doing this right and running the extra wires. What will my success rate be if I just cut the two wires off at the furnace and attach a new 5 wire run to the old 2 wires and pull? That depends entirely on if/how it's stapled inside the walls. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Feb 18, 2017 |
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Feb 18, 2017 23:46
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I'm back with another question about a light switch replacement (follow up to my previous post)! I'm having trouble detaching the backstabbed/push-in wires from my old light switches, since the builder used cheap fixtures for pretty much everything around this house. So I've decided that I'm just going to cut the wires, strip the insulation, then wrap the copper around the side terminal screws instead. But I'm not sure as to which wire corresponds with each screw. Are my labeled images below correct?  And just to be clear- the fixtures in the images above are the old one. I'll be replacing it with similar, newer fixtures! Also, is it generally better to just use the side terminal screws instead of the push-in method? I've been reading up on it online, and it looks like push-in wiring is more of a matter of convenience than anything else. melon cat fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Feb 20, 2017 |
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Feb 20, 2017 00:02
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melon cat posted:I'm back with another question about a light switch replacement (follow up to my previous post)! I'm having trouble detaching the backstabbed/push-in wires from my old light switches, since the builder used cheap fixtures for pretty much everything around this house. So I've decided that I'm just going to cut the wires, strip the insulation, then wrap the copper around the side terminal screws instead. But I'm not sure as to which wire corresponds with each screw. Are my labeled images below correct? I found this page has a good breakdown of the different connection methods and actually demonstrates the reasoning instead of just vaguely implying that backstab terminals will kill your dog and run off with your wife: https://www.handymanhowto.com/electrical-outlets-side-wire-versus-back-wire/ Basically, backstabs have some inherent problems, but the real big issue seems to come from reusing them after a wire has been removed (especially if they are used with bigger than 14ga wire).
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Feb 20, 2017 00:50
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I'm trying to install a Honeywell programmable switch. The wires coming out of the back are Load (Blue), Neutral (White), and Line (Black). I opened up the box where this is going to go, and I'm having a hard time figuring out how to make it work. It seems that there is neutral hot and ground going into the original switch. How do I wire both of those neutral lines into the single neutral wire on the switch (both neutrals and the new switch neutral into a wire connector?)? How to I wire the load and line with what appears to be one hot wire? Original Switch:  Honeywell Switch:  Box (switch on the right is the one I want to replace: 
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Feb 20, 2017 01:52
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Kinfolk Jones posted:I'm trying to install a Honeywell programmable switch. The wires coming out of the back are Load (Blue), Neutral (White), and Line (Black). I opened up the box where this is going to go, and I'm having a hard time figuring out how to make it work. It seems that there is neutral hot and ground going into the original switch. How do I wire both of those neutral lines into the single neutral wire on the switch (both neutrals and the new switch neutral into a wire connector?)? How to I wire the load and line with what appears to be one hot wire? Speaking of backstabs, fix your backstabs. They're fires waiting to happen. No, that red going into the original switch isn't a neutral. Most likely, the black is hot and the red wire goes up the fixture. Connect that red wire to the blue wire, black to black, and the white wire to the bundle with the red wire nut on the bottom of the box. You might need a bigger wire nut for that one.
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Feb 20, 2017 02:43
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Hubis posted:I found this page has a good breakdown of the different connection methods and actually demonstrates the reasoning instead of just vaguely implying that backstab terminals will kill your dog and run off with your wife: https://www.handymanhowto.com/electrical-outlets-side-wire-versus-back-wire/ melon cat fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Feb 20, 2017 |
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Feb 20, 2017 04:11
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Kinfolk Jones posted:I'm trying to install a Honeywell programmable switch. The wires coming out of the back are Load (Blue), Neutral (White), and Line (Black). I opened up the box where this is going to go, and I'm having a hard time figuring out how to make it work. It seems that there is neutral hot and ground going into the original switch. How do I wire both of those neutral lines into the single neutral wire on the switch (both neutrals and the new switch neutral into a wire connector?)? How to I wire the load and line with what appears to be one hot wire? Your existing switch is a 3 way, whereas the programmable switch is a regular switch. Not gonna work without yanking the other switch out and bypassing it, and I'm not familiar enough with 3 way circuits to tell you how to do that.
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Feb 20, 2017 05:07
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I just finished painting a room in my house and was going to replace the outlets with ones that match (from almond to white) tonight. I seem to have discovered and electrical mystery in the process. 1) Turned off the breaker for the outlets in that room. Verified with an outlet tester (the three light kind) that I have no power anywhere in the room. 2) Replace first outlet at random. Just happens to be the end of the line (1x 12/2). No issues. 3) Move down to the next outlet. Verify no power again with above tester. The existing outlets are backstab outlets and this one gives me more trouble so I start snipping wires. As I snip the first wire, a white wire as it happens, I get some mild sparking. WTF, not good. So I plug my outlet tester in again. Now I get a pulsing lights. I try another outlet that hasn't been touched tonight and get the same thing (with the lights indicating hot/ground reversed, IIRC). Just a slow roughly 1hz pulsing. 4) Go grab my free-with-any-purchase Harbor Freight multimeter. I get ~90v when I bridge the white wire on the outlet I was working on and ground. Same with white and black, I believe, but I can't recall at this moment. I flip off the other 15 amp breaker that more or less handles the other half of this floor of the house (minus bathroom, washer dryer, and wall heater circuits). Now I get 0v where I had 90v before. 5) At this point I'm beyond confused. I end up pulling off all the outlets and seperating the wires just so I can put a meter on everything and figure out if there's something obviously weird. Lots of wires involved, but no obvious indicators of what the issue or exactly where each of these wires goes since at least two of them have 3x 12/0's run into the box. 6) I'm no electrician, but I finally find what I think is the white wire where the 90v is coming from in the room. I'm reaching at straws at this point, but I start looking at what else is on this circuit that could be somehow responsible. The next room over doesn't have the issue and the next closest thing on the same circuit is a pair of hallway lights on three way switches (switch on each end of the hall). I flip the switch and go check my white wire that was 90v a second ago and now get 0v. Flip it again. 90v. Go flip the other switch. 0v. Hopefully that made some amount of sense. I'm going to do a bit more investigating, but any obvious way a 3 way lighting switch should be involved in this issue?
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Feb 23, 2017 06:46
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Sounds like those two breakers are sharing a neutral, which is fine. If you're just changing the outlets you should be able to turn off both circuits, do your work, and turn them back on and everything should be fine. edit: oh, I misread, you're still seeing power on the white wires with both circuits off? Uhh...
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Feb 23, 2017 06:52
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Mimesweeper posted:Sounds like those two breakers are sharing a neutral, which is fine. If you're just changing the outlets you should be able to turn off both circuits, do your work, and turn them back on and everything should be fine. No, with only one breaker on I'm seeing 90v on neutral on the circuit that I thought was turned off. If that just means it's shared neutrals and is acceptable I'll reattach everything as it was. I'm going through one by one and reattaching outlets now with the intention of not reattaching the 90v connection for the moment until I got confirmation of what was causing the issue.
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Feb 23, 2017 07:18
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BeastOfExmoor posted:No, with only one breaker on I'm seeing 90v on neutral on the circuit that I thought was turned off. If that just means it's shared neutrals and is acceptable I'll reattach everything as it was. I'm going through one by one and reattaching outlets now with the intention of not reattaching the 90v connection for the moment until I got confirmation of what was causing the issue. I'm a little reluctant to give you advice without being there and able to confirm all my assumptions but this does sound like a normal shared neutral and if you're just swapping outlets everything should be fine. Maybe wait for a more experienced electrician poster to confirm, I guess.
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Feb 23, 2017 07:48
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Buttoned everything up since I need power down there tomorrow and have a 3yr old running around. Everything tests fine with an outlet tester, but I couldn't really do much with the multimeter since I installed tamper-resistant outlets. Couldn't recreate the pulsing light with the same breaker settings as earlier with the new outlets. Very odd, but perhaps someone can explain it tomorrow.
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Feb 23, 2017 08:23
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Why is a shared neutral ok? If you have 2 20amp circuits sharing one 12 gauge neutral won't it potentially have 40 amps on it and burn your house down?
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Feb 23, 2017 13:48
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I've got two mystery switches on the walls that seem to do nothing at all, in the same general area of my house. They certainly have power to them and they're functionally switching the power correctly, but there just doesn't seem to be any load (I guess I need to actually verify this - would I do this with an ampmeter across the load and neutral heading out of the switch?). Are there any good tools or tricks to figuring out where the wires are going that are supposed to be controlled by the switches?
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Feb 23, 2017 13:48
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Mimesweeper posted:I'm a little reluctant to give you advice without being there and able to confirm all my assumptions but this does sound like a normal shared neutral and if you're just swapping outlets everything should be fine. Maybe wait for a more experienced electrician poster to confirm, I guess. BeastOfExmoor posted:Buttoned everything up since I need power down there tomorrow and have a 3yr old running around. Everything tests fine with an outlet tester, but I couldn't really do much with the multimeter since I installed tamper-resistant outlets. Couldn't recreate the pulsing light with the same breaker settings as earlier with the new outlets. Very odd, but perhaps someone can explain it tomorrow. IANAE but 1) Get a non-contact voltage detector. I never rely on just turning off the breaker "should" control the branch circuit for the outlet to know that there's no dangerous voltage in there. It can be a great help in tracing circuits, and If you've got a box that has multiple circuits in there (which I've found at least once) it can be a lifesaver. 2) If it were me (again IANAE) I'd try to continue tracing your "problem" circuit. You might have a very loose short between the hot on circuit 2 and the neutral on circuit 1? quote:The next room over doesn't have the issue and the next closest thing on the same circuit is a pair of hallway lights on three way switches (switch on each end of the hall). I flip the switch and go check my white wire that was 90v a second ago and now get 0v. Flip it again. 90v. Go flip the other switch. 0v. Do you see the 90v on Neutral when the lights are on or off? I'd look at the 3-way switch boxes (and the boxes for the lights if there's nothing in the switches) to see if your Circuit 1 neutral goes through there.
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Feb 23, 2017 16:33
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knowonecanknow posted:Why is a shared neutral ok? If you have 2 20amp circuits sharing one 12 gauge neutral won't it potentially have 40 amps on it and burn your house down? Different phases, it doesn't add up to more than 20 amps because of how the wave forms line up 
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Feb 23, 2017 21:02
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Mimesweeper posted:Different phases, it doesn't add up to more than 20 amps because of how the wave forms line up Just read up on this. Neat! From what I can tell, if that IS the situation, then the breakers for both circuits should be bonded so you can't have one off without the other, right?
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Feb 24, 2017 00:56
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Hubis posted:IANAE but He doesn't mean "it can be a lifesaver" in the "it saved me three hours and a ton of scraped knuckles" kind of way. He means "this thing told me there was still line voltage in the box I almost put my hand in, and I'm not currently in a loving morgue because I used it" kind of way. It doesn't have to be this one, but for the love of gently caress get one before you go rooting around in a high voltage electrical system. Use it every time, even if you just personally wired the box, and just personally opened the breaker. Use it like one day your life may depend on it.
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Feb 24, 2017 01:09
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Hubis posted:Just read up on this. Neat! From what I can tell, if that IS the situation, then the breakers for both circuits should be bonded so you can't have one off without the other, right? Yes, that's code now, but it's recent so there's a lot of single breakers used like this.
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Feb 24, 2017 01:58
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MrYenko posted:He doesn't mean "it can be a lifesaver" in the "it saved me three hours and a ton of scraped knuckles" kind of way. He means "this thing told me there was still line voltage in the box I almost put my hand in, and I'm not currently in a loving morgue because I used it" kind of way. This is really good advice, don't take risks. Test, test again, never assume something is safe or turned off. I would never touch anything without one of those testers and my meter. edit: well I meant to edit this into one post, drat phones.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:06
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Mimesweeper posted:Different phases, it doesn't add up to more than 20 amps because of how the wave forms line up Thanks for the explanation and useful place for that smilie
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Feb 24, 2017 03:41
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Mimesweeper posted:This is really good advice, don't take risks. Test, test again, never assume something is safe or turned off. I would never touch anything without one of those testers and my meter.
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Feb 24, 2017 18:47
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GWBBQ posted:I like to test with a live outlet to make sure it's working, test the ones that should be off, then test a live one again. I also put a meter on it after I use the non-contact detector because I don't trust things I can't see that can kill me. To bad they don't make aneurysm detectors.
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Feb 24, 2017 21:20
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kid sinister posted:To bad they don't make aneurysm detectors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATGaybgla0w&t=67s
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Feb 24, 2017 22:13
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MrYenko posted:He doesn't mean "it can be a lifesaver" in the "it saved me three hours and a ton of scraped knuckles" kind of way. He means "this thing told me there was still line voltage in the box I almost put my hand in, and I'm not currently in a loving morgue because I used it" kind of way. After you get shocked enough (esp welding) the last thing you ever want to feel is any sort of electric buzz. Chicken-stick is best stick. Sometimes you just don't know what's live
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Feb 25, 2017 01:04
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Things like this are why I pull the master disconnect at the meter before I do anything
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Feb 25, 2017 17:39
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Cross posted from the Electronics thread because I'm an idiot and couldn't find this thread in the first place: I have an electrical issue that I have the knowledge enough to repair, but I can't seem to diagnose the issue. A couple days ago I had an outlet die on me with a lovely pop of blue smoke. (pluged into it was a 1/8 HP motor running at the time, and this outlet has solely been used to power that outlet for about 4 winters now as it's attached to my fireplace insert). I thought no biggie, I'll replace it. Well, it turns out that when it blew, it took literally 50% of the electrical outlets, lights and ceiling fans with it. Again no biggie, I'll go replace the fuse and reset any circuit breakers that popped. Now here is the problem. The entire branch that's affected ISN'T attached to a fuse or breaker as far as I can tell. I could go to each outlet in the house and test for voltage, but I have no way of telling if the outlet I'm checking is on that branch or not. I know there's a tool that you can plug into a circuit and it'll tell you roughly where the break is in terms of wire distance, but the name escapes me and I'm not even sure if it would help. There isn't a wiring diagram for the house, and the labels on the ancient fuse box and break box aren't even correct. Hell the hell do I fix this problem? It's mostly an inconvenience because I no longer have a porch light, living room light or guest bedroom light, but as much of an introvert as I am, I'm not a troglodyte and having only computer monitors for light sources is an eyestrain. Things I've done: Checked every fuse and found none dead Checked every breaker, and all of them are on Replaced the receptacle that I thought was the issue with a new one (and was horrified to find the ground wire was grounded to the junction, not the receptacle) Metered a couple circuits I knew were on the same branch due to placement (guessing) and found no voltage. Things I'm unsure of but willing to test: Metering every outlet in the house with live current and tagging all the ones that come up dead. Unsure if I find a dead outlet next to a live outlet, does that mean that outlet is the issue or is it a different branch. Would ANY outlet on the branch comeback as having current with the current situation.) Crawling under the house and looking to see where most of the romex goes and trying to trace the line. A ton of the house has the power lines just under the subfloor going from point A to point B. Since I've been educated in the ways of residential electrical networks I've yet to crawl down there and figure out where everything is going.) My fear: There might be a junction behind the wall that burned out that I have no way of finding with out tearing out every wall in the house. Can anybody advise me on what to do? I'm capable enough to do it, and have about 80% of the tools a professional electrician has due to my schooling. I literally can't afford a professional to come out and fix it so I'm pretty much on my own here
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Feb 25, 2017 22:42
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Kasan posted:Cross posted from the Electronics thread because I'm an idiot and couldn't find this thread in the first place: Just because a breaker is switched on doesn't mean that it's passing power. The breaker could have died. Take off your electric panel. Test for voltage between the screw lug on each breaker and either the neutral or ground busbar. Are there any that are switched on, yet have no voltage? edit: Before you do that, are you sure you reset the breaker correctly? You have to switch tripped breakers all the way off before they can switch on again. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Feb 25, 2017 |
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Feb 25, 2017 23:55
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kid sinister posted:Just because a breaker is switched on doesn't mean that it's passing power. The breaker could have died. Take off your electric panel. Test for voltage between the screw lug on each breaker and either the neutral or ground busbar. Are there any that are switched on, yet have no voltage? I'll check that tomorrow during the day, but yeah I cycled every breaker and pulled every fuse and tested for continuity. I didn't think the breaker itself could have died, but I have some extras laying around so that's a good starting point I can do. I'll report findings tomorrow.
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Feb 26, 2017 01:44
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I live in an old apartment building, and I hear intermittent low frequency buzzing in most of my appliances. I'm not 100% sure it's mains hum but it could be, it's a very low frequency. It's easy to hear when it's quiet, I can hear it in my speakers, a pedestal fan, and a blower heater. The fact that it is intermittent is very odd, any ideas what could be causing it, or even what I should look at?
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Feb 26, 2017 02:53
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