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He predicted that Clinton would win some states, which is not that difficult. His overall assessment and perspective of things is flawed. He talks about fixing a 'narrative' of Clinton being bad with young voters as if that's just some tall tale and not a cold hard fact that carried onto the general election. He talks of painting Sanders' support as being one from 'young white liberals' which seriously misses the point of the political moment that America was living in 2016 and continues to live to this day. It is essentially the same flawed argument that Clinton and her supporters used during the primaries and the general to explain why she was the good candidate. And considering Clinton didn't even do well with minorities in the general, it's a real missing-forest-for-trees thing.
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Feb 26, 2017 13:03
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Pedro De Heredia posted:He predicted that Clinton would win some states, which is not that difficult. I mean, narratives and perception matter a lot in politics, and pushing back against a narrative that your candidate is unpopular with a certain demographic is important because allowing it to stand can cause that demographic to move even more against you. Statistically, the base of Sanders' support was predominantly young, white liberals. You could write a whole book on the 2016 primary and what happened and why it played out like it did, but statistically the reality is that the majority of people who were not young white people were more likely to vote for Clinton than Bernie. What that means, and whether or not that was Sanders' intent (it wasn't, imo) are up for debate, but that it happened is a statistical fact. Like I said, you can hold it against him for supporting the wrong candidate, but his assessment matched the statistics after the fact outside of his belief that younger minority voters would break for Clinton, when iirc they went for Bernie, albeit with less drastic margins than their white peers, and it's a fairly banal and non-confrontational email as far as its attitude towards Bernie compared to some of the other leaked stuff. Edit: Also, in terms of the general, Hillary didn't do substantially worse than Obama did with most minority groups, and it's an open question how much of that decrease was because of lack of enthusiasm and how much of it was due to voter suppression. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Feb 26, 2017 |
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Feb 26, 2017 13:07
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After thinking on it, I'm coming around on Perez. I still think it's stupid that so much of the party didn't want to go with Keith. If they really are so similar, then there was really no reason not to just vote for Ellison and make the progressive wing happy. Nobody was going to be upset with Perez as deputy chair. But no matter your position, you have to admit that either of them seem to be a hundred times better than people like DWS or Brazile. I really hope that's true. If the Democrats start taking back statehouses in 2017 and 2018, and avoid the 2018 bloodbath that many people are expecting, I'll be happy to admit the party learned something. It's just hard to have faith right now after they managed to lose an election to that ridiculous fatass Oompa Loompa fascist.
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Feb 26, 2017 13:21
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I thought globalism was just misspeak for globalization, I'm retarded. 
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Feb 26, 2017 13:44
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Dan Didio posted:The democrats couldn't give Ellison something that didn't matter at all (?) yet they're definitely going to allow the leftist takeover and Pres. Ellison. Exactly, incapable of even giving meaningless gesture, lmao at all the smart people itt. It'll be pretty funny seeing the same arguments reused over and over 2016-2024.
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Feb 26, 2017 14:19
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Nevvy Z posted:Statistically, this is the most likely person to vote for Hildawg in the general.
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Feb 26, 2017 14:38
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Dem corporatism is obviously poo poo and dem establishment types obviously will do their best to stop a massive leftward shift but: 1) It has come up a few times but stop arguing that a left president would be doing as much as Trump. Passing legislation and overhauling a system for progress is way more complicated (not just politically) than just deciding to tear everything down. This is really basic logic of building a house v. burning it down. 2) Where is the organized left outside of blue enclaves? I know a shitload of left organizers in Michigan, Washington, and Ohio and they literally never leave the major cities. It's impossibly stupid to argue that left politics would succeed in non-traditionally progressive markets when leftists won't even do the work. You don't need the DNC to go organize the suburbs or rural districts. In fact, you don't even have to deal with inside party politics at all! You can literally just try to make the case that progressivism is better! The left might have voters and organizing power to shift the Dems but we sure as gently caress haven't proved that. My extensive experience with left politics in the rust belt has consistently been: "We need grassroots organizing!" "Yes!" "Okay let's start inside the party or at a national level..." It's tiring and dumb and the loudest people often just don't want to do the hard work. i am the bird fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Feb 26, 2017 |
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Feb 26, 2017 14:39
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Kilroy posted:Yeah you keep bringing this up each time like it's some massive gotcha but it's always stupid and wrong. Sanders ran in the Democratic primary in 2012 and 2006, and won, but declined the nomination so he'd appear as an independent on the ballot and no Democrat would split the ticket with him. It's weird and idiosyncratic that he does this, but it is not a case of the Democrats clearing the field for him like you're presenting it. For every intent and purpose, he was the candidate for the Democratic party and for Democratic primary voters in Vermont. Is it a party or just a politician's guild???
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Feb 26, 2017 14:44
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temple posted:I know her and she voted for Bozo the Clown. Literally. Typical Bernie Bros..
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Feb 26, 2017 14:51
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https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/835853317238632450
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Feb 26, 2017 15:06
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No poo poo. It allowed liberal types like yourself to loudly pretend the election didn't matter. But this way the establishment wing has a DNC Chair they control.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:16
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I support recycling but these talking points are getting a bit old.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:19
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I agree, having Chuck Schumer's man as second in charge will really hamper the efforts of true progressive Tom Perez to clean house
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Feb 26, 2017 15:19
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Actually, it is the candidate who the entire former white house lined up behind, who is anti-establishment.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:23
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The democrats never fail to disappoint. Hope the party's destroyed in my lifetime.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:34
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Chuck Schumer saw which way the electorate is going and made a move at being the senior party leader of a new progressive faction.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:37
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i am the bird posted:Dem corporatism is obviously poo poo and dem establishment types obviously will do their best to stop a massive leftward shift but: Why bother leaving the Cass corridor in Detroit or Ann Arbor to talk to the three Democrats in Klan town Howell, or Hell? That sounds like work and might be scary. Easier to just say the Camarilla's latest vampire prince Tom Perez stole your ability to locally organize. Actually what clan would Perez be? He likes labor so I'll say Brujah. Of course a real progressive would be a Caitiff 
Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Feb 26, 2017 |
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Feb 26, 2017 15:37
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The most upsetting thing about this is thinking about how many votes Ellison might have lost because of scum like Hiam Saban and Alan Dershowitz's racist smear campaign against him.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:47
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKvRzgCPd4Q
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Feb 26, 2017 15:49
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Homeless Friend posted:Actually, it is the candidate who the entire former white house lined up behind, who is anti-establishment. Versus the hand picked candidate of a 30 year congressmen with the endorsements of the House and Senate leadership and who is a 5 term Rep himself? You know, in the event of an Ellison victory people could just as easily paint it as a failure of the party to listen to Organized Labor. They were both progressive candidates. They were both establishment candidates. The issue appears to be that Sanders' handpicked candidate didn't win. If you're really upset about that then talk about that. Don't spew this bullshit about "establishment" and "progressive".
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Feb 26, 2017 15:55
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mcmagic posted:The most upsetting thing about this is thinking about how many votes Ellison might have lost because of scum like Hiam Saban and Alan Dershowitz's racist smear campaign against him. While I'm annoyed at people acting like idiots and playing the game malevolent forces want them to play over the Perez win, this bit of rat loving was particularly heinous. Saban isn't exactly Adelson but goddamn.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:56
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Xae posted:Versus the hand picked candidate of a 30 year congressmen with the endorsements of the House and Senate leadership who is a 5 term Rep himself? Organized labor supported Ellison. And the establishment figures who supported Ellison did so as an olive branch to the progressive wing of the party. Because the two were so politically similar, the only reason the Obama/Clinton faction wanted him as chair is so they could continue to have their guy in charge.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:58
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Lightning Lord posted:Why bother leaving the Cass corridor in Detroit or Ann Arbor to talk to the three Democrats in Klan town Howell, or Hell? That sounds like work and might be scary. Easier to just say the Camarilla's latest vampire prince Tom Perez stole your ability to locally organize. I mean, you joke, but where is the lefty organizing in the suburbs around Detroit? Or Grand Rapids? Or poo poo, Lansing? You're right, though. It's easier to complain about the MDP and DNC then go run someone (despite the fact that the MDP is literally *begging* people to run in non-trad dem districts).
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Feb 26, 2017 15:59
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Xae posted:Versus the hand picked candidate of a 30 year congressmen with the endorsements of the House and Senate leadership and who is a 5 term Rep himself? I never commented on Keith's bonafides, just that Perez is, very clearly, the establishment favorite. The rest of this post is just some projection or somethin.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:07
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:The optics are bad. The optics are bad, because we insist that this is an important issue, because the optic.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:09
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perez is the establishment candidate, and also a brainless worm who couldnt chair his way out of a paper bag
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Feb 26, 2017 16:12
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I'm the kind of person who believes every action the DNC takes is a conspiracy against myself, the true liberal progressive left person. Is this thread for me?
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Feb 26, 2017 16:18
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Nevvy Z posted:The optics are bad, because we insist that this is an important issue, because the optic. It apparently is an important issue considering how many are angry about this. But just like before, the hillary wing will ignore reality again.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:20
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XyrlocShammypants posted:I'm the kind of person who believes every action the DNC takes is a conspiracy against myself, the true liberal progressive left person. Is this thread for me? No, that's the C-SPAM niche. This thread is more for acting obtuse while the democratic party continues to lumber ever onward, fractures and all.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:21
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Homeless Friend posted:I never commented on Keith's bonafides, just that Perez is, very clearly, the establishment favorite. The rest of this post is just some projection or somethin. Homeless Friend posted:I support recycling but these talking points are getting a bit old. If you don't think Ellison is an establishment candidate feel free look up what he does with his spare time since his district requires no campaigning and no fund raising.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:22
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Xae posted:Shift them goal posts a bit more. It's strikes me as a recycled primary talking point. You disagree?
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Feb 26, 2017 16:23
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Homeless Friend posted:It's strikes me as a recycled primary talking point. You disagree? You dismiss pointing out that they were both progressive as "talking points". Which is a pretty obvious attempt to paint Perez as "not a progressive" since talking points have a connotation of being bullshit. When I point out that both were progressive you try to claim you never said that. You shifted the goal posts.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:25
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Ellison is absolutely an establishment figure, however in the race where the establishment searched extensively for someone to run against him, and worked to strengthen that person's campaign at Ellison's campaign's expense, he was not the establishment candidate, no.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:26
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It's hilarious how people who spent all GE talking about how electable Hillary was are the same people saying this doesn't matter at all. Do you guys practice being as wrong as possible at all times or does it come naturally to you?
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Feb 26, 2017 16:27
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I dunno I like Perez well enough, he did good work at the DoL too bad he has that third way stink about him
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Feb 26, 2017 16:27
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Nevvy Z posted:The optics are bad, because we insist that this is an important issue, because the optic. "The optics are bad" is another way of saying "A significant portion of the base will see this as a direct insult and may no longer support the Democrats at a time when they need every vote they can get."
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Feb 26, 2017 16:27
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I don't really think the most damning thing about Perez is that he has a third-way stink, or the other criticisms people have raised or even necessarily that it may drive people away, but that for a voting process that could have been a good way to get people involved and participating, the most positive end result is that people just kind of shrug and say, 'eh, he's alright'.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:29
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Condiv posted:It apparently is an important issue considering how many are angry about this. "If this doesn't matter why I am still angry?" I dunno, maybe it's you, not the world though. Meanwhile Ellison is deputy chair of the DNC and this vote was never as big a deal as certain people kept making it out to be.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:30
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Xae posted:You dismiss pointing out that they were both progressive as "talking points". The "they're both progressive" is the same old trick that was used during the dem primary, ignoring other factors about candidates which people are suspicious/uncertain about. It's a deflection imo cause I don't think most people who didn't like the result actually cared about Keith's or Perez's positions but what they represent, the direction of the party.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:31
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Dan Didio posted:Ellison is absolutely an establishment figure, however in the race where the establishment searched extensively for someone to run against him, and worked to strengthen that person's campaign at Ellison's campaign's expense, he was not the establishment candidate, no. It was two establishment progressives fighting it out. Trying to paint either one of them as "not establishment" is incredibly disingenuous. Ellison has surprising influence House. He runs his own PAC which funds other Dems and is second only to the official DNC run Campaign Funds in terms of how much money he can distribute in Congress. That was one of the reasons why he received so much support and endorsements from inside Congress. Homeless Friend posted:The "they're both progressive" is the same old trick that was used during the dem primary, ignoring other factors about candidates which people are suspicious/uncertain about. It's a deflection imo cause I don't think most people who didn't like the result actually cared about Keith's or Perez's positions but what they represent, the direction of the party. Again. You're trying to have it both ways. Calling it a "trick" implies it is dishonest to call them both Progressives.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:31
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