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Republican legislators in my increasingly hosed up state want to bring back the death penalty. They are all dumb and evil and I hate them, but lets go into why the death penalty is hosed up and lovely. 1). It's Expensive! Why, if they're in jail for less time, is it more expensive to put someone on death row? Court costs. Death penalty cases generally take longer and cost more than non-death penalty cases, and the appeals process increases the cost difference between the two. 2). It's unfair! The death penalty is given to minorities more often than it is given to white people, often because white people tend to be richer and richer people can afford better attorneys and better attorneys know how to keep people off death row. 3). It's not a deterrent! There's absolutely no evidence that the death penalty works as a deterrent against committing capital offenses, and in fact the murder rate in states without the death penalty tends to be lower than in states with the death penalty. 4). States keep getting sued because of it! Nebraska and Texas have both been sued because they bought or attempted to buy the drugs used in lethal injection from unnamed, often shady sources, and the most recent cases brought to the Supreme Court have been because the drugs they use 5). We are literally the only country in America (North and South) or Europe that executes people! Except Belarus but gently caress them. We're behind only China, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia in number of executions and we don't want to be like those countries now do we? 6). Public Opinion of it is dropping! At one point, a little over 20 years ago, 80% of America was in favor of the death penalty. That's dropped to 60% as of this year, which is as low as it has been since Nixon was in office. 7). Innocent people might die! There are plenty of cases of new evidence being found that exonerates people sitting on death row, and there are a small number of instances where there was evidence that could have exonerated someone who was executed by the state. I repeat: HOLY loving poo poo THE STATE KILLED PEOPLE FOR A CRIME THEY DID NOT COMMIT THAT IS hosed UP 8). Jesus loving Christ We Should Not Kill People In The Name Of Justice. Jesus loving Christ we should not kill people in the name of justice. 9). Seriously "Thou Shall Not Kill" Is In The 10 loving Commandments Jesus would totally not be in favor of the death penalty, especially considering his entire life and work. gently caress you, Iowa Republicans, keep your lovely justice by murder fetish out of my state.
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# ? Feb 25, 2017 18:18 |
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# ? May 13, 2024 09:12 |
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The problem is the attempts to deritualize it and decommunalize it. Executions were an important and exciting part of traditional community life and they brought people together in fear and hate and thirst for violent retribution. Put the death penalty back in the public square where it belongs
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# ? Feb 25, 2017 18:27 |
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Calibanibal posted:The problem is the attempts to deritualize it and decommunalize it. Executions were an important and exciting part of traditional community life and they brought people together in fear and hate and thirst for violent retribution. Put the death penalty back in the public square where it belongs ok George Carlin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDO6HV6xTmI
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# ? Feb 25, 2017 18:29 |
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Calibanibal posted:The problem is the attempts to deritualize it and decommunalize it. Executions were an important and exciting part of traditional community life and they brought people together in fear and hate and thirst for violent retribution. Put the death penalty back in the public square where it belongs Make the death penalty great again. We're going to build a guillotine and make France pay for it.
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# ? Feb 25, 2017 20:39 |
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Yeah it sucks, we should take it away. People get loving bloodthirsty if you suggest that, though. I vividly remember a conversation where someone got really upset that there's such a thing as "murderer's row" and that anyone given the death penalty should die immediately.
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# ? Feb 25, 2017 20:46 |
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Just eliminate the appeals process, that should make the whole process much more economical. And to make it more ecumenical lets extend it to major white collar crimes. That's what I can an economenical solution.
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# ? Feb 25, 2017 21:00 |
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I think there should be a big cartoon hammer that squishes the defendant right in the courtroom.
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# ? Feb 25, 2017 21:02 |
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I was thinking a big trap door right underneath the defendants chair. If their lawyer accidentally falls in along with them then no great loss. Edit - On second thought I could get into this Helsing fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Feb 25, 2017 |
# ? Feb 25, 2017 21:11 |
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Great Metal Jesus posted:Make the death penalty great again. Fun trivia, the guillotine was the only legal method of execution in France, and was used until 1977 (they abolished the death penalty there in IIRC 1981?). However they hadn't had a public execution since the 30s because of how super hype and thrilled with bloodlust people would get from it.
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# ? Feb 25, 2017 23:08 |
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In Europe generally that's how it's gone, where it goes unused for decades if not more until it's removed from the books (except for treason in time of war or something to that nature generally). The more I learn about forensics and the US criminal courts the scarier having death penalty on the books is. I wouldn't be that surprised if the actual amount of innocent people executed was much higher than estimated.
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# ? Feb 25, 2017 23:19 |
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Kehveli posted:I wouldn't be that surprised if the actual amount of innocent people executed was much higher than estimated. It definitely is. The fact that we still have it on the books is one of the things that makes me very viscerally ashamed to be an American.
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 00:20 |
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You're also really bad at it, despite how many people you kill.
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 01:02 |
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DC Murderverse posted:7). Innocent people might die! There are plenty of cases of new evidence being found that exonerates people sitting on death row, and there are a small number of instances where there was evidence that could have exonerated someone who was executed by the state. I repeat: HOLY loving poo poo THE STATE KILLED PEOPLE FOR A CRIME THEY DID NOT COMMIT THAT IS hosed UP This is the really important point, I feel. Innocent people die from being executed, and the thing is that America is not a country that just executes on a whim. The death penalty is actually enacted only after an enormous amount of work has been done to not only establish guilt, but to establish it sufficiently to justify execution, and the exact reason people spend forever on Death Row is because they are entitled to a great many efforts to demonstrate innocence, or at least to demonstrate extenuating circumstances that justify commuting the sentence. (I am aware of the many, many problems in the justice system that make this imperfectly true at best, but bear with me) And innocent people are still executed. If you can't rely on a legal system as rigorous as the one prevailing in Europe and North America, you can't have faith in the death penalty. All that work, all those appeals, and innocent people have still gone to the chair. Even if they have no other issues with it at all, anyone who is willing to countenance the possibility of innocents being executed is a maniac who should have no say in matters of justice.
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 01:22 |
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The death penalty is horrible and I'm glad my governor finally put a hold on it in my state.
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 20:57 |
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edit: wrong forum
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 21:13 |
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What I don't understand about the death penalty is the sheer number of pro-life proponents of it, they are against abortion because all life is sacred, yet their blood-curdling screams in favor of the death penalty is mystifying and of the worst order hypocritical.
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 21:43 |
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Mister Adequate posted:And innocent people are still executed. If you can't rely on a legal system as rigorous as the one prevailing in Europe and North America, you can't have faith in the death penalty. All that work, all those appeals, and innocent people have still gone to the chair. Even if they have no other issues with it at all, anyone who is willing to countenance the possibility of innocents being executed is a maniac who should have no say in matters of justice. Zedsdeadbaby posted:What I don't understand about the death penalty is the sheer number of pro-life proponents of it, they are against abortion because all life is sacred, yet their blood-curdling screams in favor of the death penalty is mystifying and of the worst order hypocritical.
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 22:04 |
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We probably shouldn't kill people.
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 22:09 |
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its great if you want revenge
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 22:12 |
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I'm absolutely 100% behind complete evidence and FACTS. But isn't there at least SOMETIME where a person is so absolutely dark and hateful that you don't just have their confession, but you can see in their eyes that if they were released at some point (maybe 40 years) that they would immediately prey upon someone else? Just a loving terrible person who has killed and WOULD kill again if they had the chance? I have NO problem with executing those people. And I think it's pretty obvious which people are on death row for being genuine creepy dicks or because of some racist political crap. That definitely needs to be sorted out by a reasonable person. It seems like I say that lightly, but it's not light. We also need to fix the drug cocktail to just a whole bunch of morphine that makes your system shut down. I don't understand why there are all these complicated mixes, when you can quite easily kill someone Add to dictionary with plain old opium. *edit the add to dictionary made me laugh so hard. I spelled quickly wrong*
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 22:17 |
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DC Murderverse posted:1). It's Expensive! Why, if they're in jail for less time, is it more expensive to put someone on death row? Court costs. Death penalty cases generally take longer and cost more than non-death penalty cases, and the appeals process increases the cost difference between the two. If the appeals are unnecessary, they should be dropped. If the appeals are necessary, they should be given to people who we're going to imprison for life. As is, the argument is implying that you're OK with life-imprisonment for innocent people, because it saves you the expensive step of 'making sure they're guilty'
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 22:26 |
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It's not wrong to execute people who commit murder.
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 23:26 |
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hakimashou posted:It's not wrong to execute people who commit murder. Yes, it is.
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 23:29 |
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Peachfart posted:Yes, it is. No it's not. If they didn't want to get executed they shouldn't have murdered somone.
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# ? Feb 26, 2017 23:55 |
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hakimashou posted:It's not wrong to execute people who commit murder. That does not mean that it is necessary to execute people who commit murder. It also does not adress the practical issues with executing people and in particular it still has the issue of the American justice system having extremely high false-positives when it comes to finding people guilty.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 00:09 |
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Randler posted:That does not mean that it is necessary to execute people who commit murder. It also does not adress the practical issues with executing people and in particular it still has the issue of the American justice system having extremely high false-positives when it comes to finding people guilty. Yeah I'm not saying we do a good job of it or should continue how we do it, but if a person really is guilty of murder, its not wrong if he is killed as punishment for it.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 00:13 |
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The death penalty is one of those tricky situations for me. I'd say about 90% of the time I'm against it, just on the principle that I feel it's wrong to end another person's life. But you get some really hosed up cases. One's like the dad that ate his son's eyes, or any of the other crazy and deranged poo poo that just seems like it came from a heart of pure evil. I still can't even say it'd be right to kill them, but I find myself leaning that way in such cases.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 02:49 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:I think that is a rather facile argument. If your overriding concern is that no innocent party is ever harmed, the only logical conclusion is that the state should never use deadly force, even to pursue legitimate ends. I don't think this is compatible with the concept of a sovereign state. When you start talking about policy at the macro level, you have to accept some possibility of unintentional harm. Holy gently caress this is some alarming loving logic here. "Eh, gently caress it, some innocent people get executed, gotta break some eggs to make that justice omelet!" How about we just don't execute people?
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 02:51 |
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its not wrong to sacrifice war captives to the sun deity Huitzilopochtli, that he may absorb their sanguine essence and save the world from the demons of The Endless Night
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 02:54 |
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WampaLord posted:Holy gently caress this is some alarming loving logic here. "Eh, gently caress it, some innocent people get executed, gotta break some eggs to make that justice omelet!" Because getting a life sentence while innocent in the lovely US Prison system is loving great too. Is it unreasonable to want extensive prison reform that greatly reduces the prison population, length of sentences, along with overall much more humane treatment and rehabilitation, while still wishing to see the Timothy McVeighs of the world get their proper comeuppance?
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 03:50 |
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Uroboros posted:Because getting a life sentence while innocent in the lovely US Prison system is loving great too. Is it unreasonable to want extensive prison reform that greatly reduces the prison population, length of sentences, along with overall much more humane treatment and rehabilitation, while still wishing to see the Timothy McVeighs of the world get their proper comeuppance? Yes. Killing is wrong.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 03:53 |
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Uroboros posted:Because getting a life sentence while innocent in the lovely US Prison system is loving great too. Yea but at least we didn't kill them. Also there exists the possibility the mistake will be corrected and they can be released. No backsies after you fire up Ol' Sparky.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 03:54 |
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WampaLord posted:Yea but at least we didn't kill them. Also there exists the possibility the mistake will be corrected and they can be released. Seems like instituting higher standards of evidence could help as well. I'm unsure what it takes these days, but something as simple as requiring some form of physical evidence: DNA, film, etc as a prerequisite to receive a death penalty would be a good step. Anything that goes on eye-witness testimony alone should not be enough. Peachfart posted:Yes. Killing is wrong. Why?
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 04:07 |
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Peachfart posted:Yes. Killing is wrong. It's not wrong to kill people who are guilty of murder though. It's the golden rule.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 04:16 |
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If killing isn't wrong, why are we killing the killers? Since they did nothing wrong. Do two wrongs make a right when we can't be 100% certain if the soon to be dead person actually committed the crime?
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 04:20 |
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Peachfart posted:If killing isn't wrong, why are we killing the killers? Since they did nothing wrong. When you commit murder you will yourself to be killed in turn, since by depriving someone else of his right to live you give up your own. "Treat others as you would wish to be treated." Executing a criminal however is different, you're doing justice, as you'd want justice to be done to you, or for you, if you were yourself the victim of a murder. You aren't depriving the condemned murderer of his right to life, since he has already voluntarily relinquished it, and indeed solemnly willed his own death, by the act of murdering someone. Since we want other people to treat us the way we treat them, ie, if we behave justly, we want to to be treated justly in return, we have an obligation to treat others the way they want to be treated as well. And the only way to definitively know how someone wishes to be treated is to see how he treats others.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 04:27 |
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Abolish the death penalty so that its opponents have to find something else to pat themselves on the back for.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 04:28 |
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You kill killers because you believe they will continue to kill, not because revenge will suddenly make things better. If you can stop the killing without killing the guy, there is no reason to kill the guy.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 04:32 |
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sirtommygunn posted:You kill killers because you believe they will continue to kill, not because revenge will suddenly make things better. If you can stop the killing without killing the guy, there is no reason to kill the guy. No consideration given to justice?
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 04:34 |
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# ? May 13, 2024 09:12 |
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hakimashou posted:
You have the moral sophistication of a second grader. So you're saying everyone who commits murder wishes to be killed? Really?
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 04:41 |