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Tesseraction posted:There's certainly been a fair level of cock-ups from the Tories that compound upon the unavoidable troubles innate to a process like this. I'm not denying these exist either, nor am I asking you to ignore them. I'm just not convinced, even with the gently caress-ups that have been happening, that this is a shitted bed... yet. You can generally trust the Tories to subvert expectations there though. The bed is shitted, the Tories are gleefully rolling around in it and you're going "well I wish they wouldn't roll around in it but it doesn't smell that bad" Pissflaps posted:The problem is that labour is being turned into one of them. If we're talking historic Labour positions, they're being turned back into a leftist socialist party Pissflaps posted:I think a centrist labour would be in a better position to capture disillusioned Tory voters. We pretty solidly disagree on this - disillusioned Tory voters tend to vote Lib Dem. HISTORYSNIPE: On this day in 1900, Labour were founded.
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Feb 27, 2017 16:26
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Tesseraction posted:I still firmly believe Britain is ultimately better off outside the European Union. I honestly agree that in a perfect world Britain is probably better off outside the EU. But this is far from a perfect world, and the Tories are in charge of it. As such, currently, EU > UK.
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Feb 27, 2017 16:29
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mfcrocker posted:We pretty solidly disagree on this - disillusioned Tory voters tend to vote Lib Dem. Well, right now they would. That's the problem.
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Feb 27, 2017 16:30
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mfcrocker posted:The bed is shitted, the Tories are gleefully rolling around in it and you're going "well I wish they wouldn't roll around in it but it doesn't smell that bad" Well my actual view on it is "yeaaah, those pigs can be happy in that poo poo but when they ask for a hug later people are gonna notice the smell." TheRat posted:I honestly agree that in a perfect world Britain is probably better off outside the EU. But this is far from a perfect world, and the Tories are in charge of it. As such, currently, EU > UK. Which is why I considered abstaining. But then I thought "gently caress it, I've voted tactically all my life and I still got Tory governments"
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Feb 27, 2017 16:33
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Pissflaps posted:I don't think anybody expects 'Corbynite labour' to become centrists, just to recognise that they're an existential threat to the Labour Party as a parliamentary force. I can see, and somewhat already see, Corbyn moving to the right. I mean the nightmare scenario for me is to see Corbyn adopting and legitimizing right wing policy proposals including on immigration, while still adopting the image of being 'too left wing'. The worst of both worlds.
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Feb 27, 2017 16:34
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Pissflaps posted:Well, right now they would. That's the problem. Is this some gambit by chessmaster Tim Farron that Lib-Dem voters pay £3 to vote Corbyn so that disillusioned Tories vote Lib-Dem?
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Feb 27, 2017 16:35
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Regarde Aduck posted:Then why should anyone on the same position on the political spectrum as Corbyn bother? In fact why should anyone left of centre bother with British politics at all? You seem to think a working party exists to do either of two things: 1) Become centrist 2) Just do whatever's popular right now gently caress everything?? Labour was always left of centre. The reason people left of centre bother with British politics is because they believe it is possible to do some good, and Labour has in fact done some good when it has been in power, despite its many failings. If you believe Mr Corbyn is on the left then it stands to reason that Labour before Corbyn was at least somewhat on the left as he's retained the policy he inherited on austerity, which is surely one of the big issues at the moment, and seems to have moved slightly to the right on immigration, as he appears to have ditched Labour's previous support for freedom of movement, though it's hard to tell. Critics of Mr Corbyn aren't annoyed because they want Labour to be hard right. They are annoyed because he hasn't been a very good leader. I also personally think that in the unlikely event Corbyn does actually become Prime Minister the UK will continue to be a capitalist, fairly conservative country which gets four to eight years of flawed centre-left government which makes life better for some people, just as it would under any other Labour Prime Minister. Even though I accept that Mr Corbyn, and certainly his supporters, aspire to do much more in a way that supporters of "Blairite" MPs probably don't.
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Feb 27, 2017 16:35
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Tesseraction posted:Which is why I considered abstaining. But then I thought "gently caress it, I've voted tactically all my life and I still got Tory governments"
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Feb 27, 2017 16:35
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gently caress accelerationists
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Feb 27, 2017 16:36
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Guavanaut posted:But I thought Corbyn only got elected leader by people who voted Lib-Dem in 2010? They didn't vote for the lib dems: they voted for Clegg.
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Feb 27, 2017 16:37
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Fangz posted:gently caress accelerationists Those neolib cunts keep singing "things can only get better". If that was actually true, maybe things would get better?
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Feb 27, 2017 16:38
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TheRat posted:Those neolib cunts keep singing "things can only get better". If that was actually true, maybe things would get better? Things did get better. A lot better.
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Feb 27, 2017 16:38
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Guavanaut posted:But I thought Corbyn only got elected leader by people who voted Lib-Dem in 2010? Sir Tim Nice-But-Lib-Dem strikes again!
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Feb 27, 2017 16:39
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Tesseraction posted:Sir Tim Nice-But-Lib-Dem strikes again! 
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Feb 27, 2017 16:40
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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mfcrocker posted:HISTORYSNIPE: On this day in 1900, Labour were founded. Now that's a quality snipe
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Feb 27, 2017 16:41
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baka kaba posted:Now that's a quality snipe Yeah, I had a bit of a look around and when I saw that it was just perfect
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Feb 27, 2017 16:43
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Pissflaps posted:Things did get better. A lot better. We spent a fucktonne of money on a really stupid war. And things still got better.
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Feb 27, 2017 16:45
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Tesseraction posted:There's certainly been a fair level of cock-ups from the Tories that compound upon the unavoidable troubles innate to a process like this. I'm not denying these exist either, nor am I asking you to ignore them. I'm just not convinced, even with the gently caress-ups that have been happening, that this is a shitted bed... yet. You can generally trust the Tories to subvert expectations there though. I mean, when someone's been hovering above your bed with cheeks spread going URGGGHGHGHG I'm not sure the prudent response is to say "well they haven't poo poo it yet, let's see where this goes..."
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Feb 27, 2017 16:45
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OwlFancier posted:I mean, when someone's been hovering above your bed with cheeks spread going URGGGHGHGHG I'm not sure the prudent response is to say "well they haven't poo poo it yet, let's see where this goes..." At that point I request a house vote.
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Feb 27, 2017 16:48
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OwlFancier posted:I mean, when someone's been hovering above your bed with cheeks spread going URGGGHGHGHG I'm not sure the prudent response is to say "well they haven't poo poo it yet, let's see where this goes..." Do you say URGGGHGHGHG when you're about to have a poo?
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Feb 27, 2017 16:50
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Paxman posted:Labour's previous support for freedom of movement Labour hints at shift on EU free movement policy BBC, January 2014 posted:Shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna has suggested Labour may be interested in restricting free movement within the European Union for workers who do not have the firm offer of a job. Labour toughens up on immigration as shadow cabinet minister calls for end to free movement of EU jobseekers quote:Labour today toughened its stance on immigration by calling for curbs on EU jobseekers coming to Britain.
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Feb 27, 2017 16:53
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Pissflaps posted:Do you say URGGGHGHGHG when you're about to have a poo?
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Feb 27, 2017 16:53
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https://twitter.com/tombaldwin66/status/836218993652482049
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Feb 27, 2017 16:53
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Pissflaps posted:Do you say URGGGHGHGHG when you're about to have a poo? Yes and when I hear the sound I know it's time to push him off my bed before things go south and smooshy.
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Feb 27, 2017 16:53
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This is cool.
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Feb 27, 2017 16:55
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hmmm
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Feb 27, 2017 16:55
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Pissflaps posted:Do you say URGGGHGHGHG when you're about to have a poo? I have a working class digestion. In that it is often ructious due to the demands of the owner of the means of ingestion.
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Feb 27, 2017 16:56
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Stupid if true... but the Lords are under no obligation to listen, are they?
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Feb 27, 2017 16:57
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Tesseraction posted:Stupid if true... but the Lords are under no obligation to listen, are they? Corbyn will call their dads if they don't.
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Feb 27, 2017 17:05
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dispatch_async posted:Labour hints at shift on EU free movement policy But none of that actually made it into the manifesto, although there was a plan to stop migrants being eligible for benefits for a couple of years. The rest of the "controls on immigration" were about toughening up minimum wage enforcement. The rhetoric was about stopping decent British workers being undercut by bad foreigners but the actual policy was a good one. And it was still freedom of movement.
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Feb 27, 2017 17:11
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Tesseraction posted:Stupid if true... but the Lords are under no obligation to listen, are they? not that anyone seems to give a gently caress
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Feb 27, 2017 17:38
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You can't deselect a lord
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Feb 27, 2017 17:45
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Cerv posted:what do you mean no obligation? the lords are under the same party whipping rules as the commons. Angela Smith (Labour leader in the Lords) sits in Corbyn's shadow cabinet Well yes quite. Lords are less likely to face repercussions for telling the whip to eat poo poo.
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Feb 27, 2017 17:47
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Tesseraction posted:Lords are less likely to face repercussions for telling the whip to eat poo poo.
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Feb 27, 2017 17:51
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Paxman posted:Labour was always left of centre. The reason people left of centre bother with British politics is because they believe it is possible to do some good, and Labour has in fact done some good when it has been in power, despite its many failings. Corbyn absolutely didn't 'retain the policy he inherited' on austerity. Prior to 2015 Labour were loudly proclaiming that yes, there need to be cuts but we will just balance the budget slower than the Tories would.
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Feb 27, 2017 17:58
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Whereas I believe the current policy is there needs to be borrowing and spending if we are to balance the budget.
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Feb 27, 2017 18:00
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Didnt McDonnell commit to that cross Party fiscal policy agreement thing?
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Feb 27, 2017 18:03
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jabby posted:Corbyn absolutely didn't 'retain the policy he inherited' on austerity. Prior to 2015 Labour were loudly proclaiming that yes, there need to be cuts but we will just balance the budget slower than the Tories would. The policy was to have a balanced budget on day to day spending and borrow to invest on infrastructure with money distributed through a "national investment bank" and a series of regional banks. Which is what Corbyn and McDonnell propose now as far as I can see Labour List posted:"We believe that, in the medium to long term, governments should not need to borrow to fund their day-to-day spending”, McDonnell will say.
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Feb 27, 2017 18:08
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I mean if 2015 Labour weren't pro austerity they might have tried not saying they were so much.
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Feb 27, 2017 18:16
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OwlFancier posted:I mean if 2015 Labour weren't pro austerity they might have tried not saying they were so much. This is true, the rhetoric was all about difficult decisions and cuts. There's an interesting book about Gordon Brown by Steve Richards called By Any Means Necessary which sets out how Brown used the tax system to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor but did his best to hide it, because he was terrified that voters would turn against Labour if they realised what was going on.
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Feb 27, 2017 18:19
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