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It's becoming more and more apparent that Bernie PUMAs want a one-party state like Japan is or Mexico was, but Peronist in orientation. They seem to react poorly to expressions of actual democracy.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:35
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WampaLord posted:You moved really quickly from "give any power" to "silence all dissent" when all I said was "Listen to advice." So you didn't read my post you were responding to, or my original post either. Are you proud of being illiterate?
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Feb 27, 2017 19:36
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Brainiac Five posted:It's becoming more and more apparent that Bernie PUMAs want a one-party state like Japan is or Mexico was, but Peronist in orientation. They seem to react poorly to expressions of actual democracy. Where is this actual democracy you speak about?
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Feb 27, 2017 19:36
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Brainiac Five posted:So you didn't read my post you were responding to, or my original post either. Are you proud of being illiterate? Yes, I'm quite proud. I was educated by the state.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:37
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Brainiac Five posted:Okay, so you guys have no control over your actions then? Seems like it'd be even stupider to give you power. This is disingenuous and you're seeking to stir up another useless multi-page-spanning argument, but I'm sure you know that. I liked you better when you were at least looking for common ground for a better understanding. That's much more productive than being intentionally adversarial. There is a very significant subset of the voting population that wants to see progressive, leftist policy. We've also already identified, earlier in the thread, that a big reason for the 2016 failure was terrible messengers and insufficient message. This subset of the population likes neither the messengers that the DNC have been putting forth (up until recently) nor their policies. When they look to alter the party to better fit their expectations, they get shut out and snubbed by the party establishment. Their recourse, then, is to pressure these party insiders via agitation and organization, and to replace them using their votes. Incidentally, "boasting about their refusal to compromise" is a falsehood. The vast majority of Bernie voters voted for Hillary, and Ellison was picked because we figured he would be a more-than-acceptable candidate. And indeed he was welcomed by most people until Obama decided he needed to push Perez into the race. Brainiac Five posted:It's becoming more and more apparent that Bernie PUMAs want a one-party state like Japan is or Mexico was, but Peronist in orientation. They seem to react poorly to expressions of actual democracy. Brainiac Five posted:So you didn't read my post you were responding to, or my original post either. Are you proud of being illiterate? Okay, so you're just intentionally trying to start a fight. Enjoy socializing with your strawmen.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:37
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TheRat posted:Just so we're clear, are you saying Wikileaks is not publicising the truth or are you saying publicising the truth is bad? I'm saying Wikileaks is not doing us a favor by publishing the documents the Russians hacked to ratfuck our party.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:37
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Fados posted:Where is this actual democracy you speak about? Please learn how to read before opening your mouth.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:38
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JeffersonClay posted:I'm saying Wikileaks is not doing us a favor by publishing the documents the Russians hacked to ratfuck our party. Right. Truth is bad. Got it.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:38
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Brainiac Five posted:Why exactly should Democrats give any control to people who are open about their desire to disenfranchise them, boast about their refusal to compromise on anything, and essentially threaten to act just like Republicans? Seems like Democrats would have to be really stupid to give Bernie-or-Busters any leverage whatsoever. Republicans are massively successful electorally, so wouldn't you want the left to act like them?
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Feb 27, 2017 19:39
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TheRat posted:Right. Truth is bad. Got it. Shorter Richard Nixon: why are the democrats mad about their phones being tapped if what they're talking about isn't true? 
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Feb 27, 2017 19:41
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SKULL.GIF posted:This is disingenuous and you're seeking to stir up another useless multi-page-spanning argument, but I'm sure you know that. I liked you better when you were at least looking for common ground for a better understanding. That's much more productive than being intentionally adversarial. See, these are words. What actually happens is people insist that no one who's a "centrist", meaning they have disagreed in any way with the Bernie diehards, can be allowed to hold office, and they brag about never compromising or being practical about anything. And none of you supposedly reasonable people makes one peep about how that's wrong or incorrect or whatever. So judging you on your actions, you have no problem with such excesses and stupidities.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:41
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icantfindaname posted:Republicans are massively successful electorally, so wouldn't you want the left to act like them? This is orthogonal to the point of "expecting Democrats to slit their own throats for you is stupid".
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Feb 27, 2017 19:42
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icantfindaname posted:Republicans are massively successful electorally, so wouldn't you want the left to act like them? *paints tony blair's face over a map of iraq*
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Feb 27, 2017 19:44
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Brainiac Five posted:Please learn how to read before opening your mouth. Going by the shitstorm it caused in the liberal media, and how much everyone, from Obama to Hollywood stars, were gloating that Hillary had the election in the bag, Trump's election feels to me a lot like a 'moment of actual democracy', same with brexit and most populist right-wing uprisings. It's actually these parties that are managing today to include into the democratic system long-term politically disenfranchised people. On the contrary people on the center, especially center-left are more and more getting cynical and fed up with it all.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:47
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Brainiac Five posted:It's becoming more and more apparent that Bernie PUMAs want a one-party state like Japan is or Mexico was, but Peronist in orientation. They seem to react poorly to expressions of actual democracy. You're wrong. What we want is simple: a two party system where the only parties with any power are a Center-Left party and a Left party: a choice between liberals and leftists. Liberals are as conservative as should be allowed.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:47
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Brainiac Five posted:It's becoming more and more apparent that Bernie PUMAs want a one-party state like Japan is or Mexico was, but Peronist in orientation. They seem to react poorly to expressions of actual democracy. Well the goal of a political party is to dominate its political system.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:47
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Brainiac Five posted:This is orthogonal to the point of "expecting Democrats to slit their own throats for you is stupid". Democrats spent 8 years slitting their throat rather than engaging the base or the left.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:47
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icantfindaname posted:Republicans are massively successful electorally, so wouldn't you want the left to act like them? I want the left to look at Wikileaks selectively leaking democrats' emails, identify it as partisan bullshit, and ignore it. Republicans are really good at this.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:47
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Fados posted:Going by the shitstorm it caused in the liberal media, and how much everyone, from Obama to Hollywood stars, were gloating that Hillary had the election in the bag, Trump's election feels to me a lot like a 'moment of actual democracy', same with brexit and most populist right-wing uprisings. It's actually these parties that are managing today to include into the democratic system long-term politically disenfranchised people. On the contrary people on the center, especially center-left are more and more getting cynical and fed up with it all. Conservatives aren't disenfranchised, you lunatic. Covok posted:You're wrong. What we want is simple: a two party system where the only parties with any power are a Center-Left party and a Left party: a choice between liberals and leftists. Liberals are as conservative as should be allowed. In that case, please enforce party discipline on people like WampaLord who are contemptuous of the expression of dissent.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:49
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Democrats handing all the power to corporations and helping dismantle labor as a force in the United States Of America is actually not centrist not centrist YOU'RE THE CENTRIST!
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Feb 27, 2017 19:50
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Brainiac Five posted:In that case, please enforce party discipline on people like WampaLord who are contemptuous of the expression of dissent. Seems like you're the one pissed about dissent, not me.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:50
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WampaLord posted:Seems like you're the one pissed about dissent, not me. You're the one who said people who disagree with Bernie should be silenced, and have never actually admitted you were wrong to say so.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:52
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Brainiac Five posted:Conservatives aren't disenfranchised, you lunatic. AHh yes, that's why they chose the establishment guy in their own primaries right?
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Feb 27, 2017 19:52
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JeffersonClay posted:I want the left to look at Wikileaks selectively leaking democrats' emails, identify it as partisan bullshit, and ignore it. Republicans are really good at this. So I should selectively ignore verified information if I don't like its source? That doesn't sound very clever.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:54
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Fados posted:AHh yes, that's why they chose the establishment guy in their own primaries right? You edited this post but still hosed it up. And you're apparently of the opinion that Trump is meaningfully different from establishment conservatism ideologically.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:54
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Comservatives are ascendent in both parties right now
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Feb 27, 2017 19:55
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Scent of Worf posted:Democrats handing all the power to corporations and helping dismantle labor as a force in the United States Of America is actually not centrist not centrist YOU'RE THE CENTRIST! Like I said, liberals are as conservative as can be allowed. If the choice was between Liberals and left-ists this country would be a lot more sane. This wouldn't happen tomorrow: that'd be suicide. First, we need to gain ground, grow power, and destroy the GOP. Gerrymander the GOP into oblivion like they did to us, then setup polices that turn voters to our side and make our own propaganda machine that is aired in the safe spaces of republicans every day. Perhaps buying out Fox News and forcing everyone to make liberal talking points while only slowly revealing their allegiance shift. Then, when the populace is properly indoctrinated and the facism, conservsatism and libertatrian has been bred out of the population and saving us from those mental illnesses that masquerade as ideology, we can split into a center-left and left party in security and lead the world to a new golden age.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:55
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I think it's extremely telling that dissenting from the official Bernie line gets all kinds of opprobrium where jabbering about how Trump represents the triumph of democracy over "media elites" is just fine.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:56
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Brainiac Five posted:You're the one who said people who disagree with Bernie should be silenced, and have never actually admitted you were wrong to say so. Feel free to quote me saying that. You're inventing crazy statements and then linking them to my words.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:56
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Brainiac Five posted:See, these are words. What actually happens is people insist that no one who's a "centrist", meaning they have disagreed in any way with the Bernie diehards, can be allowed to hold office, and they brag about never compromising or being practical about anything. And none of you supposedly reasonable people makes one peep about how that's wrong or incorrect or whatever. So judging you on your actions, you have no problem with such excesses and stupidities. 🤔 SKULL.GIF posted:I think Perez will be fine but it'd be a huge enthusiasm blow to the base, much like Clinton winning the primary was. SKULL.GIF posted:I've been working to keep a bunch of people I know onboard with the Democrats, but they're pretty annoyed with Perez winning. None of them have a problem with Perez himself, they're all citing Obama meddling with the process. SKULL.GIF posted:That is exactly what's happening. I've had to argue to convince a few youngins (by that I mean people still in their very early 20s) to stick with the party for 2018 at least. Fortunately, they seem to be listening to me, but I don't know about the other few million of them. I don't particularly care about browbeating strangers on dying comedy boards who I have no real social influence or leverage on, and you guys are already engaging the people calling for party divestment so forgive me for not joining in on the dogpile. I have enough of a time trying to keep the college students I know involved and enthusiastic about the Democrats, or at least about the Democrats they can vote for. If I had infinite consciousnesses then I could do that for the whole country but my time, capability, and attention is limited. (This, by the way, is why leadership matters to us. Someone way up at the top of the DNC has their impact multiplied thousands of times. We can work from the grass roots up but that's slow and requires a ton of cooperating and organization (which hasn't stopped us to be clear).) I'm going to repeat myself: SKULL.GIF posted:Like VitalSigns says, I am a captive audience. I will always vote for the furthest left candidate with any realistic chance of winning. I did not like Hillary but I held my nose and voted for her. I would have done that in a thousand iterations of the 2016 election. I am not the problem. You need to get the people who didn't vote to vote. The only way you do that is having an inspiring message, having policies that you can talk about in simple, straightforward terms that will directly and comprehensibly improve their lives and fix their problems. Telling people to gently caress off with their peasant rhetoric doesn't do that. Telling them they're wrong and idiotic doesn't do that. Intentionally taking acts to snub them, to shut them out of the party doesn't do that. Being a living avatar of contempt does not loving do that. It does the loving opposite!
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Feb 27, 2017 19:58
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Brainiac Five posted:Democrats lost an election and now all Democrats who didn't kiss the ring must be silenced? Are you for loving real? WampaLord posted:What does "kiss the ring" mean to you in this scenario? So maybe you hosed up and didn't read the part with "must be silenced", and you should admit that and we can move on. It won't fuckin' kill ya to admit to a mistake.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:59
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Brainiac Five posted:You edited this post but still hosed it up. And you're apparently of the opinion that Trump is meaningfully different from establishment conservatism ideologically. The ideology behind his campaign was very different yes: on trade, on foreign policy, on public spending, even lgbt, I mean this should be self-evident for anyone that followed it, I don't feel this should be contentious at all, but yeah here have an article with polls and some quotes: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-voters-insight-idUSMTZSAPEC1H40WMLD Many 'lost' voters say they have found their candidate in Trump quote:Ted Wade hasn’t cared about politics enough to cast a vote in a U.S. presidential election for almost a quarter of a century, back when he supported Ross Perot’s independent candidacy in 1992.
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Feb 27, 2017 20:00
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SKULL.GIF posted:🤔 I can only judge you on your visible actions and inactions, rather than claims of you holding back hordes of college students from ostentatiously refusing to vote. It doesn't take any more effort to tell someone to gently caress off than to write self-justifications.
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Feb 27, 2017 20:01
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Brainiac Five posted:So maybe you hosed up and didn't read the part with "must be silenced", and you should admit that and we can move on. It won't fuckin' kill ya to admit to a mistake. If people aren't willing to even listen to the progressive wing, then they shouldn't be listened to in return. This is not "silencing" them.
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Feb 27, 2017 20:01
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WampaLord posted:If people aren't willing to even listen to the progressive wing, then they shouldn't be listened to in return. This is not "silencing" them. Okay, so what you meant is that you will simply shut out anyone who didn't suck up to the Bernout krew from any kind of influence, but this does not consist of silencing them because they can shout into the void all they like. Uh huh.
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Feb 27, 2017 20:03
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Brainiac Five posted:I can only judge you on your visible actions and inactions, rather than claims of you holding back hordes of college students from ostentatiously refusing to vote. It doesn't take any more effort to tell someone to gently caress off than to write self-justifications. Did you happen to skim past the part where I condemned telling potential voters to gently caress off?
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Feb 27, 2017 20:04
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TheRat posted:So I should selectively ignore verified information if I don't like its source? That doesn't sound very clever. If the source is a foreign intelligence service attacking your party to empower a proto-fascist, yes, ignoring it is the smart thing to do.
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Feb 27, 2017 20:05
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Brainiac Five posted:I think it's extremely telling that dissenting from the official Bernie line gets all kinds of opprobrium where jabbering about how Trump represents the triumph of democracy over "media elites" is just fine. Well anyone who jerks off to American workers losing jobs is wrong by default.
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Feb 27, 2017 20:06
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SKULL.GIF posted:Did you happen to skim past the part where I condemned telling potential voters to gently caress off? And if those potential voters want to join the Democrats to triangulate?
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Feb 27, 2017 20:06
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Calibanibal posted:Comservatives are ascendent in both parties right now This is the kind of counterproductive nonsense that we shouldn't lose any sleep over driving out of the party.
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Feb 27, 2017 20:07
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