|
stone cold posted:It's a total wash, enjoy your gendered slur. Well I would never say I knew what's best for all people. I'll say some in this thread could learn to not be so knee jerk in their own rush to label people.
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 17:10 |
|
|
I can hate on HRC all day as a candidate but I think the blame is less her than other more significant factors that contributed to the election loss. JeffersonClay posted:Clinton's biggest mistake was assuming Trump would be easy to beat. If y'all want to be taken seriously, recognizing that error would be a good place to start. Yeah that's a big part of it, she never took him seriously once and thought she had the election wrapped up from the beginning.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:05
|
|
|
Crowsbeak posted:Well I would never say I knew what's best for all people. I'll say some in this thread could learn to not be so knee jerk in their own rush to label people. And maybe you could stop using gendered slurs and normalizing pedophilia while you're still having a learning experience, food for thought.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:06
|
|
|
Covok posted:Guys, guys, guys, for gently caress's sake, can't we all just agree the enemy is evil and unite in our mutual hatred of the other rather than getting into petty arguments over things? Like, seriously, it's not hard to get: vote in primaries for the face and voice of the party you want, work with their campaigns if you must, donate, protest, rally, and the like. Hell, minor arguments amongst one another is fine: there is no one way to do the party and unity is not a common sight in politics. But, lets not let it get too heated. At the end of the day, we're just puffing hard air while the enemy shoots dead another innocent person. Take to the streets and make the opposition fear for their safety if they continue denying the will of the majority so people can safe soundly at night knowing the demons are back in their cages, don't fight each other pettily on the internet. this is kind of hard to do when the only "opposition" party decides they don't need young people to vote for them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:07
|
|
|
It's weird how passive Bernouts are. Instead of applying pressure to achieve political goals, your ideal is apparently to wait for people to intuit what you want and then just give it to you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:08
|
|
|
Confounding Factor posted:I can hate on HRC all day as a candidate but I think the blame is less her than other more significant factors that contributed to the election loss. In 'fairness', the Democrats were talking well before the election about how impossible the map was for the GOP, regardless of the frontrunner. They were betting on a Clinton win well before Trump was candidate (thus why they didn't fight very hard on things like the SCOTUS seat).
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:08
|
|
|
Confounding Factor posted:I can hate on HRC all day as a candidate but I think the blame is less her than other more significant factors that contributed to the election loss. I mean it's hard to think that voter suppression in the states she lost didn't play a big factor. Obama only beat Mittens by about 70k votes in Florida, for example, when there was a whole lot less fuckery going on. Wisconsin and Michigan have both had a whole load of voter suppression activities happen. Which isn't an excuse, because that should have been a big red sign that you should go campaign there and be like gently caress THESE ASSHOLES WHO DON'T WANT YOUR VOICE HEARD, but :welp:
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:09
|
|
|
Just LOL at all the people trying to seriously engage with Stone Cold and Effectronica. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:10
|
|
|
The Ender posted:In 'fairness', the Democrats were talking well before the election about how impossible the map was for the GOP, regardless of the frontrunner. They were betting on a Clinton win well before Trump was candidate (thus why they didn't fight very hard on things like the SCOTUS seat). I don't know how hard they could really "fight" on the SCOTUS seat.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:10
|
|
|
Brainiac Five posted:It's weird how passive Bernouts are. Instead of applying pressure to achieve political goals, your ideal is apparently to wait for people to intuit what you want and then just give it to you. Actually most of us are talking about getting further involved in politics and taking part in town halls to pressure Dems.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:10
|
|
|
Yeah, assuming Michigan was due to people in the Grand Rapids suburbs turning Republican rather than suppression in Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Benton Harbor, Grand Rapids, etc. is, ah, not compelling.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:10
|
|
|
I have this intuition that the 'voter suppression' bogeymen the Dems enjoy chasing is roughly as real as the GOP's 'voter fraud' bogeyman.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:11
|
|
|
The Ender posted:I have this intuition that the 'voter suppression' bogeymen the Dems enjoy chasing is roughly as real as the GOP's 'voter fraud' bogeyman. OK, so here's another example why your political opinions are unconvincing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:12
|
|
|
The Ender posted:I have this intuition that the 'voter suppression' bogeymen the Dems enjoy chasing is roughly as real as the GOP's 'voter fraud' bogeyman. lol no, voter suppression is objectively real.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:12
|
|
|
The Ender posted:I have this intuition that the 'voter suppression' bogeymen the Dems enjoy chasing is roughly as real as the GOP's 'voter fraud' bogeyman. you would be extremely wrong, but it's not the only reason dems lost by far.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:12
|
|
|
readingatwork posted:Just LOL at all the people trying to seriously engage with Stone Cold and Effectronica. You think rape jokes are funny, so why would anybody ever engage with you? You also can't spell antisemitism and think pewdiepie was a martyr for free speech, so like, you should just never post.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:13
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:lol no, voter suppression is objectively real. Alright; do you have evidence that supports the idea that this is what caused Clinton losses?
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:13
|
|
|
Brainiac Five posted:Yeah, assuming Michigan was due to people in the Grand Rapids suburbs turning Republican rather than suppression in Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Benton Harbor, Grand Rapids, etc. is, ah, not compelling. Maybe actually not taking Michigan for granted would have helped. Also can we not talk about YouTube bs in this thread?
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:14
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:it should've been a blowout of historic proportions. That's what I thought too but whoops the US is a lot more comfortable with racism sexism and islamophobia than I guessed. And at that point, Trump looks a lot tougher. Indeed, the racism, sexism and islamophobia may have been an advantage and we were deluding ourselves the whole time. These are the kind of realizations about the election that are possible once you get over the primary and how terrible Hillary is about everything.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:15
|
|
|
The Ender posted:I have this intuition that the 'voter suppression' bogeymen the Dems enjoy chasing is roughly as real as the GOP's 'voter fraud' bogeyman. Your intuition is faulty.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:15
|
|
|
The Ender posted:Alright; do you have evidence that supports the idea that this is what caused Clinton losses? if there wasn't any she probably (barely) wins. i don't think it's the primary cause of her loss tho.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:16
|
|
|
The Ender posted:Alright; do you have evidence that supports the idea that this is what caused Clinton losses? "contributed to" is not the same thing as "caused" semantically. And by the way, the GOP voter poo poo is part of their strategy of voter suppression; like they openly admit it lol BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Feb 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:16
|
|
|
Guys I have a bunch of demonstrably false beliefs about election dynamics in the US but you lost an election therefore I must be in charge.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:20
|
|
|
Hm. Alright, fair enough; that's pretty compelling evidence.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:20
|
|
|
But yeah one of the things Perez wants I am most excited about is a paid legal taskforce to combat and challenge restrictive voter laws, since Grand Wizard Sessions has made it clear he doesn't give a gently caress, it's going to fall to non-government forces to fight this poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:22
|
|
|
stone cold posted:I agree, the people who think pedophilia is a kink, and the people who are revolted by pedophilia are the same. Both you and Crowsbeak (and a bunch of people on "both sides" in this thread, to be honest) have a bad tendency to immediately assume that anyone you may disagree with is some ridiculous stereotype, either of some racist/sexist "Berniebro" or some sniveling technocrat liberal, depending upon the poster's own views. Effectronica takes this even further, often escalating things to the point of telling people to kill themselves in a way that doesn't seem entirely ironic. I think the internet can sometimes be bad for discussion because of this. The anonymity encourages some people to assume the absolute worst about their "opponents." Something that may be made with a conciliatory or unsure tone in person is often interpreted as a strong position the poster is unwilling to budge on if it's just text on the internet. To be honest, I don't think the conflict over the DNC is as big of a deal in terms of how it might impact voters as some people are making it out to be. Most Democratic voters have not been following the DNC Chair election, and many of the people upset about the results will have lost a lot of their anger/energy by the time the next election rolls around. My personal feeling is that while both Perez and Ellison likely would have performed about the same as Chair, it's a little worrying that many members of the DNC are explicitly considering this as a conflict between the leftist/Sanders wing of the party and the more centrist wing. Despite some posters' arguments to the contrary, there is clearly a non-insignificant portion of the Democratic Party establishment that does consider there to be a conflict between the leftist portion of the party and the more centrist/establishment portion, even if there's no significant conflict between the political views of Ellison and Perez specifically. Antipathy towards leftists from within the Democratic Party establishment is a real problem (assuming you're a leftist, at least); it isn't just some conspiracy theory leftists have fabricated.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:23
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:Guys I have a bunch of demonstrably false beliefs about election dynamics in the US but you lost an election therefore I must be in charge. Note that I never said that I should be in charge. Just people that aren't you. And not just because you lost, but because you hardly even accept that you lost. 'We kinda lost. Barely. I mean it doesn't count though because [reasons]. Basically the game isn't fair! Who'd have thought? And Americans are *gasp* racist & sexist! Why didn't anyone tell me that? If only we'd known!' Are there not a bunch of young professional Democrats fresh out of college or whatever that can maybe take the wheel for a while so the old entrenched gasbags can take a fuckin nap or whatever? I bet those Dems aren't crazy & won't drive the car off a loving cliff, and probably have some not half bad new ideas to try out in place of the half-baked ones that have been losing you seat after seat over the past 8 years.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:25
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:Guys I have a bunch of demonstrably false beliefs about election dynamics in the US but you lost an election therefore I must be in charge. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:27
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:But yeah one of the things Perez wants I am most excited about is a paid legal taskforce to combat and challenge restrictive voter laws, since Grand Wizard Sessions has made it clear he doesn't give a gently caress, it's going to fall to non-government forces to fight this poo poo. As awful as it is that Perez was the pick the conservative wing went with because "Ellison was too far left." The things he has been saying had been giving me hope that just loving maybe he at least learned something useful this past election. Sadly we will have to wait and see. But now that Party leadership is over maybe the Democrats can actually start organizing against Trump.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:27
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Both you and Crowsbeak (and a bunch of people on "both sides" in this thread, to be honest) have a bad tendency to immediately assume that anyone you may disagree with is some ridiculous stereotype, either of some racist/sexist "Berniebro" or some sniveling technocrat liberal, depending upon the poster's own views. Effectronica takes this even further, often escalating things to the point of telling people to kill themselves in a way that doesn't seem entirely ironic. I don't think that's the case. I've generally been clear in distinguishing between directly castigating people for their expressed opinions and pointing out that when you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas. So, for example, I'd call you an equivocating motherfucker because you decided that getting accused of pedophilia for yuks and telling people not to treat it as a joke with harsh rhetoric are equivalent. And I might well extrapolate to your personal character from you deciding those things are equivalent, or from you deciding to play the magisterial peacemaker without understanding the context. And I believe it only fair to do so, because it acknowledges there's another person there, rather than a faceless program spitting out posts.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:30
|
|
|
KomradeX posted:As awful as it is that Perez was the pick the conservative wing went with because "Ellison was too far left." The things he has been saying had been giving me hope that just loving maybe he at least learned something useful this past election. Sadly we will have to wait and see. Anything you can tell me what Perez has said that gives you hope? I'm still suspicious of the Democratic Party.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:30
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Both you and Crowsbeak (and a bunch of people on "both sides" in this thread, to be honest) have a bad tendency to immediately assume that anyone you may disagree with is some ridiculous stereotype, either of some racist/sexist "Berniebro" or some sniveling technocrat liberal, depending upon the poster's own views. Effectronica takes this even further, often escalating things to the point of telling people to kill themselves in a way that doesn't seem entirely ironic. Um, crowsbeak called pedophilia a kink, so nice  where you didn't even read the posts in question? 
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:31
|
|
|
Who knew that not wanting the normalization of pedophilia would be a controversial stance to take? e: wrong tense
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:32
|
|
|
The Ender posted:Note that I never said that I should be in charge. quote:And not just because you lost, but because you hardly even accept that you lost. 'We kinda lost. Barely. I mean it doesn't count though because [reasons]. Basically the game isn't fair! Who'd have thought? And Americans are *gasp* racist & sexist! Why didn't anyone tell me that? If only we'd known!' We lost. It was heartbreakingly close. There are lots of things we could have done differently that might have changed that outcome, and some things that were outside our control that if they had gone differently would have changed the outcome. If your contribution to that body of knowledge is "Hillary Bad. Kissenger! Honduras!" I don't think you're adding a lot of insight that's very applicable to our decisions moving forward. Ytlaya posted:To be honest, I don't think the conflict over the DNC is as big of a deal in terms of how it might impact voters as some people are making it out to be. Most Democratic voters have not been following the DNC Chair election, and many of the people upset about the results will have lost a lot of their anger/energy by the time the next election rolls around. My personal feeling is that while both Perez and Ellison likely would have performed about the same as Chair, it's a little worrying that many members of the DNC are explicitly considering this as a conflict between the leftist/Sanders wing of the party and the more centrist wing. Despite some posters' arguments to the contrary, there is clearly a non-insignificant portion of the Democratic Party establishment that does consider there to be a conflict between the leftist portion of the party and the more centrist/establishment portion, even if there's no significant conflict between the political views of Ellison and Perez specifically. Antipathy towards leftists from within the Democratic Party establishment is a real problem (assuming you're a leftist, at least); it isn't just some conspiracy theory leftists have fabricated. Do you think it's possible that braying for the blood of centrists might have made them a little paranoid and made it more difficult for Ellison to win? If the people campaigning for him were making it clear that he'd clean house and kick out all the worthless compromising dems, why would those same dems vote for him? Give me all the power so I can destroy you is not a particularly convincing pitch.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:34
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Both you and Crowsbeak (and a bunch of people on "both sides" in this thread, to be honest) have a bad tendency to immediately assume that anyone you may disagree with is some ridiculous stereotype, either of some racist/sexist "Berniebro" or some sniveling technocrat liberal, depending upon the poster's own views. Effectronica takes this even further, often escalating things to the point of telling people to kill themselves in a way that doesn't seem entirely ironic. I like this post. I personally worry that the conflict between leftist dems and more centrist dems is being focused on the wrong person - Perez - when there are more legitimate, notable, and deserving faces of conservative and/or corporate influence among the democratic establishment. People like Manchin, Feinstein, or even Schumer are much worse people who have endorsed much worse things, while Perez was called a "crusading ideologue" by McConnell, attacked by Breitbart, and barely managed to become Obama's labor secretary in front of that antipathy. Combined with Perez's long history in support of labor movements and against voter suppression, and his direct willingness to team up with Ellison to the point of naming him Deputy Chair and stating that he wishes him to be the face of the democratic party, I can't help but think that the direction of all this anger is misplaced to the point of feeling manufactured.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:36
|
|
|
Confounding Factor posted:Anything you can tell me what Perez has said that gives you hope? I'm still suspicious of the Democratic Party. He wants create a 57 state/territory party; spend less money on dumb memes and more money on having paid staffers who can build state parties; have a voter suppression task force that will actively fight for voting rights; work with activitist groups to let them take the lead on their issues but support them as much as possible. Perez is a genuinely good guy who's done a lot of great work over the years.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:36
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Um, crowsbeak called pedophilia a kink, so nice Yeah, and I'd say that overall what he said is worse, but it's still really obvious that Crowsbeak is not an actual pedophile and that what he said was him misspeaking in a real dumb way. And don't get me wrong, I don't think that referring to pedophilia as a kink is some minor thing that should be ignored. It's definitely a bad thing, but it does not imply that the person who said it is a pedophile or someone who honestly thinks pedophilia is equivalent to being into BDSM or something.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:39
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Yeah, and I'd say that overall what he said is worse, but it's still really obvious that Crowsbeak is not an actual pedophile and that what he said was him misspeaking in a real dumb way. And don't get me wrong, I don't think that referring to pedophilia as a kink is some minor thing that should be ignored. It's definitely a bad thing, but it does not imply that the person who said it is a pedophile or someone who honestly thinks pedophilia is equivalent to being into BDSM or something. No one has said that it is. The point is to rhetorically demonstrate that it is normalization. You are automatically assuming stone cold is extremely stupid/hateful, rather than giving the benefit of the doubt.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:40
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:lol no, voter suppression is objectively real. So is voter fraud. The questions lie in the effect size, hopefully this helps.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 17:10 |
|
|
Brainiac Five posted:You are automatically assuming stone cold is extremely stupid/hateful, rather than giving the benefit of the doubt. This is a pretty good assumption though. Source: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3804043&userid=208548
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:42
|
|