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Covok posted:Also, no worries, while I am disagreeing with you currently, I am not trying to say you're wrong. Well, what I mean is, this is productive discussion on the merits of a design decision. I'm not annoyed you have a differing opinion, I welcome that since it allows me to think outside myself on the issue. The "win condition" thing is interesting, and I think you could use it to really add dramatic tension to the game as it progresses. That's cool, kind of like an ever-present Front in AW. The trick is going to be in structuring it to produce the results you want (i.e. designing its triggers and effects).
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Feb 27, 2017 23:10
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I think Masks's constraints (you're a teen/super, and being the latter doesn't solve the former) are far wider than "You're either cursed or a racist*". Many Masks game are similar (they take place in Halcyon, you fight Rook Industries) there's no mechanics that require that. You can call it Marathon City or Toledo Ohio. You can be the Kid Brother generation and Superheroes started with the psychedelic revolution of the 60s. It won't change Influence, Labels or the core moves. *A simplification, I admit.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:13
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Golden Bee posted:I think Masks's constraints (you're a teen/super, and being the latter doesn't solve the former) are far wider than "You're either cursed or a racist*". Many Masks game are similar (they take place in Halcyon, you fight Rook Industries) there's no mechanics that require that. You can call it Marathon City or Toledo Ohio. You can be the Kid Brother generation and Superheroes started with the psychedelic revolution of the 60s. It won't change Influence, Labels or the core moves. To be fair, though, is that so much different from what playbooks already provide? Urban Shadows says everyone can turn into some horrible NPC if they give in to their baser desires too much. That establishes something key in the game: that everyone has a dark side no matter how noble they appear and everyone can turn into a monster if they let it happen. It reinforces a key theme of the game: everyone is corruptible and no one is the noble hero who can keep themselves pure through strength of heart. In a way, this mechanic is the same way: everyone can be a monster, either literally or through hate in this case. It also creates an inherent divide in problems the players have experienced in their character's past, something the playbooks can expound on and this can drive drama. Maybe you're a member because you just want to help people, maybe you're a normal human who was a victim and now blame all supers, maybe you joined to get a cure, maybe you joined to buy off a prison sentence. That could even be reinforced in the playbooks. When disagreements arise between groups, there is a clear difference in perspective: one has a much more real problem then the other and that can change power dynamics in roleplaying and drama. Remember, this would be just the base the playbooks build off of. I think it makes an interesting base to play around in. You may be right nothing forces you to play as the designers intended setting-wise and, to be honest, that is true of AW and DW as well (Mr. Prokosch has pointed out many times how you can do a western in AW without changing a thing). I do feel the constraints aren't that tight. There is a lot of directions you can run off of from that prompt. I also do question if PbtA really needs to be able to be so much considering one of its powers as a game engine is its desire to focus in on themes, motifs, and atmosphere and try to codify that in rules, in comparison to most games that try to codify probability and physics. I guess its something to be mindful of, if I go forward. To consider if this feels too constraining (especially the win condition idea/lose condition idea) or if it's alright. It's worth noting a lot of games do limit characters options either explicitly or implicitly.
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Feb 28, 2017 01:33
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Covok posted:You may be right nothing forces you to play as the designers intended setting-wise and, to be honest, that is true of AW and DW as well (Mr. Prokosch has pointed out many times how you can do a western in AW without changing a thing). Covok posted:I also do question if PbtA really needs to be able to be so much considering one of its powers as a game engine is its desire to focus in on themes, motifs, and atmosphere and try to codify that in rules, in comparison to most games that try to codify probability and physics. Now you could say that all adventures are just reskinned versions of the Hero's Journey (and at some level you'd be right), but variation in setting can have huge ramifications in how the game feels in play. AW proper has only 4 thematic ideas: civilization has fallen, the psychic maelstrom is a thing, scarcity defines the fundamental human condition, and violence has consequences. But those ideas are ridiculously broad. There's nothing indicating that the civilization that fell was anything like our own (although this tends to be generally assumed), the psychic maelstrom is left up to the players to define, and the scarcities could literally be anything.
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Feb 28, 2017 02:02
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How does the maelstrom translate to a Western or Vikings?
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Feb 28, 2017 08:29
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The maelstrom is the spirit world and/or the inscrutable workings of the gods, man. It's casting runes and reading sheep entrails and poo poo. It's awesome.
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Feb 28, 2017 12:39
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please do not treat AW as a universal
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Feb 28, 2017 13:17
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Ilor posted:It's not that I think you shouldn't do it; I'm just pointing out that the more specificity you give to the setting and the overall plot arc of the game (through its end-condition mechanics), the less interesting the game will be from a replayability standpoint. The first play-through may be rad as gently caress, but once you've cured the disease will you really want to do it again just to maybe try a different playbook? Not sure that at all follows - I mean, Night Witches is far tighter in focus and has plenty of replayability through focusing on different parts of the war effort, different squads, etc. A setting with a strong core narrative isn't a hindrance with PbtA - it's often a benefit in getting all the players on the same page.
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Feb 28, 2017 13:57
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I agree, but then again, does Night Witches have an end-game mechanic written into it like what's being proposed here? It's the combination of the two things (tight theme/setting, baked-in campaign progression/end condition) that I raise as a possible issue. And who knows, maybe it won't be a big deal. God knows I've repeated "cure 4 diseases" enough times playing Pandemic, so maybe replayability won't be an issue. I'm just raising it as something to think about.
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Feb 28, 2017 16:25
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Ilor posted:I agree, but then again, does Night Witches have an end-game mechanic written into it like what's being proposed here? It's the combination of the two things (tight theme/setting, baked-in campaign progression/end condition) that I raise as a possible issue. Either the war progresses to Berlin and your dudes win or you all die. There's a lot of airfields in the book that get you steadily closer and the GM role rotates every time you change base.
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Feb 28, 2017 16:59
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I've played a few different games of AW and they were very different from each other. The chosen playbooks really define what your game will be about, since apocalypse world revolves around the PCs. Not to mention, the setting of the apocalypse changes heaps since your group establishes it around the table. I feel like the idea of infinite replayability is a legacy from D&D, back when there was only one roleplaying game, or games were only designed for years-long campaigns. I feel like, for me, the benefit of the expanding stable of PBTA games is that I can play in a broadly related group of rulesets and/or design philosophy, but have a lot of unique experiences. I may not play The Sprawl forever, but it will scratch my cyberpunk itch, and then I can explore some Viking gender role stuff with a game of Sagas of the Icelanders. And then get my occult-industrial scoundrels vibe on with a game of Blades in the Dark. I mean, does every game of dungeons and dragons play out the same way?
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Feb 28, 2017 22:00
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Recently wrote a Monsterhearts skin, am hoping this is the right place to post it for feedback. My teenage pathology is paranoia and intrusiveness -- the kid who's convinced everyone is talking about them behind their back, who's willing to violate others' privacy to make sure no one secretly hates them or talks poo poo, and who uses your secrets against you (while simultaneously relying on unreliable sources, so long as it sounds right). And, well, that fit pretty well with the "mind-reader" horror archetype. Thus, The Telepath.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:23
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Poltergrift posted:Recently wrote a Monsterhearts skin, am hoping this is the right place to post it for feedback. My teenage pathology is paranoia and intrusiveness -- the kid who's convinced everyone is talking about them behind their back, who's willing to violate others' privacy to make sure no one secretly hates them or talks poo poo, and who uses your secrets against you (while simultaneously relying on unreliable sources, so long as it sounds right). And, well, that fit pretty well with the "mind-reader" horror archetype. Thus, The Telepath. This is really good, it's got a good grasp of a teen pathology and sticks to it's themes really well, without stepping on anyone's toes. Considering how lovely a lot of 3rd party skins are that's a solid achievement. I like the idea of psychoanalysis and Nothing to Hide, but I don't think the mechanics work out so well. You don't really have a way to get strings easily, so Psychoanalysis isn't going to come up much, and Nothing to Hide is pretty broken. The Headache condition isn't something other players can hit you with easily, and hidden information games never really work out, in my experience, so you basically learn 2 massive, character defining things for free. It's something that should really be a roll. My take would be something like quote:Open their Brain: Other than that, Thought Police is just limited strings, and should be changed to those (keep the trigger on guilt or shame to up the Stalker aspect). Lens of the Astral's redundant, since Gazing Into The Abyss about someone's going to give similar answers already. Third Eye should be changed to under your observation rather than in your presence, since it's really rare for people to gaze with people. Heard Enough should really be called Lash Out Psychically but it's fine otherwise.
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Mar 1, 2017 01:58
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Poltergrift posted:Recently wrote a Monsterhearts skin, am hoping this is the right place to post it for feedback. My teenage pathology is paranoia and intrusiveness -- the kid who's convinced everyone is talking about them behind their back, who's willing to violate others' privacy to make sure no one secretly hates them or talks poo poo, and who uses your secrets against you (while simultaneously relying on unreliable sources, so long as it sounds right). And, well, that fit pretty well with the "mind-reader" horror archetype. Thus, The Telepath. One thing I noticed is that you say the fact that the Telepath can't get Strings easily makes Psychoanalysis costly. But if various other skins (particularly high Hot skins) take it as an off-skin advance, it's not so hard for them to use. The other thing is the backgrounds. Monsterhearts doesn't have players hide things from each other OOC, so making a big part of your character hidden from everyone else doesn't fit. The Telepath also has 3 different backgrounds, when every other skin has 2. I'd probably just go with "You can read minds" and "someone did something you could never have predicted."
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Mar 1, 2017 02:21
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rumble in the bunghole posted:I like the idea of psychoanalysis and Nothing to Hide, but I don't think the mechanics work out so well. You don't really have a way to get strings easily, so Psychoanalysis isn't going to come up much, and Nothing to Hide is pretty broken. The Headache condition isn't something other players can hit you with easily, and hidden information games never really work out, in my experience, so you basically learn 2 massive, character defining things for free. It's something that should really be a roll. I have been considering involving a Dark roll, but I'm trying to work it out within the context of the themes I'm going for. One of the important characteristics of the pathology represented by the Telepath is that they're willing to take shoddy or ambiguous sources as hard fact, as long as it confirms their suspicions. Reliably accurate mind-reading makes the Telepath too good at having correct information to act on. What about : Nothing to Hide 2.0 posted:When you intrude into someone's thoughts, roll +Dark. On a 10+, ask one, and your target answers truthfully. On a 7-9, pick one: • ask one, and your target gives a partial or confusing answer, • ask two, and your target answers one truthfully and lies for the other, • ask one, and your target answers truthfully, then makes you answer one truthfully. rumble in the bunghole posted:Other than that, Thought Police is just limited strings, and should be changed to those (keep the trigger on guilt or shame to up the Stalker aspect). Lens of the Astral's redundant, since Gazing Into The Abyss about someone's going to give similar answers already. Third Eye should be changed to under your observation rather than in your presence, since it's really rare for people to gaze with people. Heard Enough should really be called Lash Out Psychically but it's fine otherwise. These seem fair; edits going up soon. Though I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "under your observation" versus "in your presence."
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Mar 1, 2017 03:45
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I mean The Sasquatch already functions as a "Tell me your secrets" skin. This doesn't do much that "Awkward" doesn't do in a single move.
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Mar 1, 2017 07:10
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Golden Bee posted:I mean The Sasquatch already functions as a "Tell me your secrets" skin. This doesn't do much that "Awkward" doesn't do in a single move. I feel like it's sort of a different archetype. The Sasquatch learns secrets because they're a weirdo and an outsider, and people confess secrets to them because how exactly are they gonna use it if they're barely present anyway? The Telepath by contrast learns these secrets by being a paranoid creep and a snoop.
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Mar 1, 2017 10:17
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Secrets are a way better fit to a psychic than a sasquatch anyway.
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Mar 1, 2017 11:09
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I think you're remaking the wheel. Two points, the second which is more important. 1.Psychics are almost always protagonists or antagonists in horror fiction. It's hard to put them as ensemble because it's a superpower that directly attacks plot. Unlike being a witch or a werewolf, it's relatively hard to keep a psychic trustworthy, which is vital because games continue long after everyone knows they're a monster 2. The Queen has "Streaming" which lets her read peoples' thoughts. Through her sex move or giving conditions She can act as a psychic virus. This method is much more reflective of teen fiction (from children of the corn to Heathers-style indoctrination).
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Mar 6, 2017 20:33
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Any knowledge of a system that does good capers? I was thinking of doing a leverage one shot but it's heavier than I'd like for a one off
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Mar 9, 2017 10:29
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ShineDog posted:Any knowledge of a system that does good capers? I was thinking of doing a leverage one shot but it's heavier than I'd like for a one off There's Blades in the Dark? I mean it's a pretty far afield from the AW baseline but it does heists like nobody's business.
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Mar 9, 2017 10:53
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I decided to go forward with the idea I had earlier about the Superhero game. I decided to drop the Aberrant style mutations and replace it with the same corruption track for Base humans: falling into bigotry and hate. The idea is now not about finding a cure, but about trying to get the two sides to work together. There are now a win and lose condition. If too many riots occur, one faction in the city practically genocides the other faction and sets off a series of events that will cause society to fall apart. If enough co-existence is gained, the two sides learn to live in peace and the craziness starts to fade and people start trying to live together as one species again. I've tried my best to instill the importance of keeping up appearances and keeping your mind together so I added in Reputation and Stress in as a companion to Harm. Well, considering it was all just a bunch of random of ideas, I've done alot. For those curious, it is now called Divided: A Superpowered Pre-Apocalypse Roleplaying game. This is the premise: Premise posted:A few years ago, people began developing strange powers. I've pretty much got the base system done. All that's left is making the playbooks, making threats, and doing playtesting. How do y'all think of it so far?
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Mar 12, 2017 06:58
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ShineDog posted:Any knowledge of a system that does good capers? I was thinking of doing a leverage one shot but it's heavier than I'd like for a one off Besides Blades in the Dark there's also The Sprawl for cyberpunk-themed heists. Both of them are on the heavier side of PBtA. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Mar 12, 2017 |
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Mar 12, 2017 18:41
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rumble in the bunghole posted:Secrets are a way better fit to a psychic than a sasquatch anyway. I have honestly never really liked the Sasquatch. It's just such a weird mishmash of stuff compared to the cohesive visions most of the other skins are.
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Mar 12, 2017 19:06
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spectralent posted:I have honestly never really liked the Sasquatch. It's just such a weird mishmash of stuff compared to the cohesive visions most of the other skins are. Pretty much every 3rd party skin aside from this one is terrible. I've offered my critique of the psychic but it actually mixes teen/monster in a cohesive way.
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Mar 12, 2017 23:40
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rumble in the bunghole posted:Pretty much every 3rd party skin aside from this one is terrible. I've offered my critique of the psychic but it actually mixes teen/monster in a cohesive way. The Sasquatch is from Second Skins, which is pretty official although made by Jackson Tegu. I do agree that it's not really a "secrets" skin. They have some moves that can let them sort of find out secrets but it's not in a paranoid, "I have to know what people are thinking" way, and it's possible to just not take them as well.
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Mar 13, 2017 08:11
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Heliotrope posted:The Sasquatch is from Second Skins, which is pretty official although made by Jackson Tegu. I do agree that it's not really a "secrets" skin. They have some moves that can let them sort of find out secrets but it's not in a paranoid, "I have to know what people are thinking" way, and it's possible to just not take them as well. To be fair, Second Skins varies wildly in quality, and I'd argue the lower half of the skins in there are probably closer to third-party skins in quality than the core skins. Some of them definitely go to third-party design spaces that don't really play well; I believe I've voiced my opinion on the Unicorn on these forums before, but I still feel like a skin that can force players at the table to discuss sex acts in greater granularity than "the characters had sex" has potential to violate Safe Hearts principles at the bare minimum. (Then again, given the Unicorn character portrait's place in the Monsterhearts 2E Kickstarter banner, Avery Alder seems to disagree with me.) The Sasquatch is an interesting skin in that I'd argue that it's the inverse the classic MH skin flaw of "only one build/interpretation possible of this playbook": it's got parts of a lot of approaches, most of which only have a move or two's worth of support, so a Sasquatch is probably going to have to dabble. That may or may not be a bad thing, but it's a thing worth noting.
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Mar 13, 2017 08:27
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Nuns with Guns posted:Besides Blades in the Dark there's also The Sprawl for cyberpunk-themed heists. Both of them are on the heavier side of PBtA. there are so many fuckin moves in The Sprawl man, too many fuckin moves
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Mar 13, 2017 12:03
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Antivehicular posted:To be fair, Second Skins varies wildly in quality, and I'd argue the lower half of the skins in there are probably closer to third-party skins in quality than the core skins. Some of them definitely go to third-party design spaces that don't really play well; I believe I've voiced my opinion on the Unicorn on these forums before, but I still feel like a skin that can force players at the table to discuss sex acts in greater granularity than "the characters had sex" has potential to violate Safe Hearts principles at the bare minimum. (Then again, given the Unicorn character portrait's place in the Monsterhearts 2E Kickstarter banner, Avery Alder seems to disagree with me.) I think that thing is the big problem with it; I like that the skins are all "This is this character's deal", and the Sasquatch being "You have a few deals, maybe, go nuts" is very frustrating when everything else is so tightly built. Plus, regardless of whatever else your deal is your mandatory deal is BO, which is a weird thing to try and build an identity around. Like, there's not a playbook about having pimples.
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Mar 13, 2017 13:59
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Heliotrope posted:The Sasquatch is from Second Skins, which is pretty official although made by Jackson Tegu. I do agree that it's not really a "secrets" skin. They have some moves that can let them sort of find out secrets but it's not in a paranoid, "I have to know what people are thinking" way, and it's possible to just not take them as well. Now if Tegu would just put Second Skins up for sale somewhere I could actually give him money for all his hard work. It's been a damned year since the last update on the Kickstarter.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:03
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Alaois posted:there are so many fuckin moves in The Sprawl man, too many fuckin moves Yeah I can get that something about cyberpunk drives people to control for all the ways a heist can go south but man I wish more games would cut it off earlier
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Mar 13, 2017 19:58
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Alaois posted:there are so many fuckin moves in The Sprawl man, too many fuckin moves I did actually get Blades and can confirm that it's fun as hell and goes a great job of eliminating the Shadowrun-esque planning stage.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:04
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Alaois posted:there are so many fuckin moves in The Sprawl man, too many fuckin moves The Sprawl is really good. Most of the moves are Advanced Moves that only trigger in specific situations. The Basic Moves are comparable to any other good PbtA game. If quantity of moves is your criteria for good/bad PbtA, I have bad news about Apocalypse World.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:13
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Whats the current best model of this system? In my mind its still Dungeon World but I've only had a limited time with all the other implementations of it. I'm working on a kind of Eclipse Phase inspired hack right now and wanted to read a few more examples of the system than AW, DW and Sprawl
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Mar 13, 2017 20:15
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:Whats the current best model of this system? In my mind its still Dungeon World but I've only had a limited time with all the other implementations of it. I'm working on a kind of Eclipse Phase inspired hack right now and wanted to read a few more examples of the system than AW, DW and Sprawl Pretty much no one is gonna say Dungeon World. It's fine as D&D+PbtA, but the D&D stat system plus any-stat Defy Danger is arguably the worst thing ever done in a popular PbtA hack. I would say Apocalypse World 2e, Monsterhearts, The Sprawl, World Wide Wrestling.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:19
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Yeah, I'm gonna agree with admanb; Dungeon World is a great "gateway drug" for introducing people who only know D&D to story-based games, but in terms of its adherence to the central principles of the PbtA system, it's kind of a train wreck. It brings in enough of the cruft of D&D to piss off the hardcore story people, but loses enough of the simulationist aspects to piss off the hardcore D&D people.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:49
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:Whats the current best model of this system? In my mind its still Dungeon World but I've only had a limited time with all the other implementations of it. I'm working on a kind of Eclipse Phase inspired hack right now and wanted to read a few more examples of the system than AW, DW and Sprawl I kinda like Blades.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:52
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Maybe I'm just bias to DW cause of how much I've played it vs other pbta games in the past - I'll make a note to check out the rasselin' game and Blades!
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Mar 13, 2017 20:59
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Monsterhearts is IMO the leanest, meanest implementation of the engine. That's part of the reason most 3rd-party material for MH is so weak; it really doesn't accommodate really specific or really fiddly add-ons without a powerful theme.
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Mar 13, 2017 21:01
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spectralent posted:I think that thing is the big problem with it; I like that the skins are all "This is this character's deal", and the Sasquatch being "You have a few deals, maybe, go nuts" is very frustrating when everything else is so tightly built. Plus, regardless of whatever else your deal is your mandatory deal is BO, which is a weird thing to try and build an identity around. Like, there's not a playbook about having pimples. There actually is a thing about Bigfoot smelling bad, oddly enough. But it also adds to making the Sasquatch an outsider - not only are they awkward and weird, but they start smelling when they sweat. It also makes it so that people will interact with the Sasquatch even if they don't want to. The Sasquatch is really good at being in the background and potentially not doing much, but Musk makes it so that people will start interacting with them because of something the character can't really control.
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Mar 13, 2017 21:17
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