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Aphid, I agree with you that the mindset of constantly being on the move, never gathering forces to enjoy local superiority, always having our guns either limbering or unlimbering, and stretching ourselves thin in pursuit of a hold on an objective, no matter how frail that hold is going to be, is not doing us any favor, and I have been saying the same thing since before the first turn, in this thread and on Roll 20. I thought I may have been wrong after the previous update, when things went okayish, but this day's outcome is exactly what I've feared all along. However, I think the rules work as intended. We made tactical and strategic mistakes, and the French just played the encounter at Dej much better. The lesson is clear, and could have been learned much earlier: Do not try to go picking battles using a contingent just barely powerful enough to have a chance at winning. Do not hope that clever orders will make up for lack of raw force. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 12:41
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steinrokkan posted:Aphid, I agree with you that the mindset of constantly being on the move, never gathering forces to enjoy local superiority, always having our guns either limbering or unlimbering, and stretching ourselves thin in pursuit of a hold on an objective, no matter how frail that hold is going to be, is not doing us any favor, and I have been saying the same thing since before the first turn, in this thread and on Roll 20. I thought I may have been wrong after the previous update, when things went okayish, but this day's outcome is exactly what I've feared all along. This is a better perspective than mine. I agree. e: I think we've been playing for territory too much and it seems like the French are doing much better hitting our sad isolated troops. aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 12:56
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Yep, Stein's right. We got outplayed, simple as that. And, really, even if Trin was scheming and rigging it against us (which, again, he's not), you don't go and SAY that unless you've got absolute proof and the game just isn't fun anymore - never piss off the GM. However, it's not COMPLETELY over, we just have to hold out until probably mid-morning, which as long as we're on the defensive we can totally do. They're scattered all across the map, now, and the bulk of their forces (the BEF) is probably about to turn on me instead of Croissant. Dig in, weather the storm, maybe we salvage a win. If not, at least the French bleed for every inch. Also, I'm still (semi)serious about desperately cooking up some chlorine as a last ditch
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Feb 28, 2017 14:22
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Yeah, in the light of day and some sleep, I was a bit accusatory and overly salty there, for which I apologize. It's just immensely frustrating that even when we finally succeed at something, it's instantly undone during the next orders pulse when we flub every roll and the French succeed on all of theirs. Credit to the French, they've outplayed us since before the first turn, because it's pretty clear they've been a lot better at knowing how to set up their units and word their orders to actually accomplish their goals. And no, that's not backhanded praise; they're just flat better than us at playing this game, on top of any superiority at tactical or strategic planning. The Sandman fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 14:59
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That did not happen because you flubbed a bunch of rolls. That happened because the howitzers were left exposed, unlimbering in a position where only two MGs and two infantry companies could fire on an attack from the direction of where the enemy happened by good fortune to be attacking from. There were a bunch of bad rolls on Turn 22, but even if you'd rolled perfectly, what you'd have done is killed all the French infantry companies instead of just the one that tried to charge the MG (who in the event never fired on you and then retreated suppressed, and were no longer a factor after that turn) and the cavalry would still have got in among them and wrecked their poo poo while they couldn't defend themselves.
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Feb 28, 2017 15:22
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The Sandman posted:Yeah, in the light of day and some sleep, I was a bit accusatory and overly salty there, for which I apologize. We made three mistakes. The first was tunnel visioning in on StC and forgetting flank security, which cost us our realistic shot at Quatreprouts. The second was splitting our forces in the face of a superior enemy to hail mary something, anything into Q anyway. And we did not particularly "succeed" in that attempt, we traded about evenly with that French brigade when we had no forces left to lose and when the French had not called in their reserves yet, and put ourselves into an obviously untenable position in the process. Our third error, the attempt to keep both Q and Dejeuner, split our forces again and set us up for this, but this doesn't even particularly matter anymore beyond making things slightly easier for the French. All that's left now is wait for the French forces, whose movements we cannot hinder with our sad remaining forces being tied down in defensive positions, set up prepared assaults on whatever objective they choose whenever they choose. Mopup. If Trin lets us run down the timer with this pair of twos of a hand that would be hilariously gamey and unfair to the French. Nothing about this is due to French brilliance or dice rolls or order wording or GM shenanigans. We did this basically singlehandedly.
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Feb 28, 2017 15:54
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Trin Tragula posted:That did not happen because you flubbed a bunch of rolls. To be fair killing some counters would still be better than absolutely loving nothing. Dice have not been kind to us this game.
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Feb 28, 2017 15:55
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Trin, did Perestroika's orders not go through because of some mechanical reason, or did you forget about them? That is critical to know.
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Feb 28, 2017 16:34
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Failed to change and then the enemy was on top of them.
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Feb 28, 2017 16:42
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The whole thing was basically classic WWI.txt. A localised but decent breakthrough is forced at one section of the front, but the strategic mobility and CnC to capitalise and reinforce that success is simply not available. As such the spearheading elements are either forced to retreat or defeated in detail. We simply role-played appropriately to the period 
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Feb 28, 2017 17:18
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Except, of course, that we managed to gently caress up spectacularly enough to accomplish that during the one part of the war where sweeping advances were possible for our side. I'm of the opinion that we wait one more orders pulse, or two at most, to see if Hegel survives her charge up La Oeuf and is somehow intact enough that the French can't use their own practically untouched brigades to kill her brigade and most of our remaining artillery with it. If we don't achieve that miracle, we ask for terms. Especially since our runner probably died atop La Oeuf during that cavalry charge.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:56
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No, I've worked through my initial backlog of salt and defeatism, and I'm no longer in a state of mind to accept that. We aren't surrendering, not now and not ever. We dig in, make them come to us, and bleed them for every inch. If we're even moderately lucky we can hold at least Croissant until the morning, at which point Moltke rides triumphantly over the hill to pull us out of the fire. If we get REALLY lucky on rolls and/or Trin lets me cook up some warcrimes (still serious about that btw) we might even hold Q.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:08
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Trin, I assume if we end up stalemated over the night, German units outside the map will have progressed past our positions, and will enter the map through the southern border.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:10
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All right. Here is what we do. HEY GAIL stops immediately, right there, right now. A reinforcement brigade is about to enter the map. It will join her. We must schedule its movement to enter the area ca. around STC around the same time as The Sandman, who will be moving to assist as well. There are two things that can happen: either the French push us and we extract a blood toll out of them, or they push at Q. The former will be a misplay on their end. The latter will take them a few turns at least and let us regroup to take the hill once again. Comments, questions, suggestions?
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Feb 28, 2017 18:16
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If our runner doesn't show up at St. Croissants within the next two orders pulses, we have to expect that won't be happening. At that point we're reducing to praying that the French do something really stupid and attack piecemeal rather than just throwing multiple brigades at St. Croissants to overwhelm us, and that we roll impossibly well during that attack. EDIT: Also, the hill will be impregnable by morning, since the Entente will have had time to entrench there with more troops and artillery than we'll have to assault with. The forces already there outnumber Hegel's brigade as is, and they have at least one full-strength brigade they can use as reinforcements there without compromising their defenses at Clemenceau. We take it now, or not at all. The Sandman fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 18:16
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I request that Sandman be allowed to stay, and the . This is not the time to collapse one of our flanks because of an imminent collapse on the other. The reinforcing brigade should assist Hegel instead. Is there a commander attached to it?
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Feb 28, 2017 18:20
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One crucial question: do our reinforcements have to enter the map from the northeast, or can we bring them in elsewhere? Like somewhere in the southeast?
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Feb 28, 2017 18:27
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The last time they had to pop up anywhere on our phone map, so we may pick any place on the northern edge of the map. I was going to bring them up at Veine, incidentally. We do need a commander for them! Speak up if you want it, people! As for whether or not they can entrench there: it is true they can, which is why I am not suggesting we wait until morning! Either they will dig in there - and lose, since the runner is about to get to STC in the next two turns - or they will attack either STC or Q. This is why I am suggesting we gather forces around STC and then push onto Dej - they will either be coming to greet us by then and the advance will not be necessary, or the hill will be at least half empty as they rush to overwhelm Cryo (not a done deal by any stretch of the imagination! - they cannot fire into town with their artillery).
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Feb 28, 2017 18:31
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Do we really think we can pull off an attack? I'm very wary of spending what little forces we've got smashing against the blob on Dejeuner.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:40
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The point is: it will either not be an attack because there will be no-one on the hill, or it will not be an attack because they will be gunning for where we are right now.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:44
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Oh, I misread. I thought we were going right now but looking back literally the first line you wrote was "HEY GAIL stops immediately, right there, right now." Ignore me, I apparently can't read.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:49
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I can't seem to post a picture because Imgur seems to be broken ATM, but... We are not going to win an attack. No need to throw good companies after bad. We should entrench St. C. and be satisfied with controlling a fat little objective after several major blunders. Also the French have a massive advantage in any maneuver-based combat, our only strength is that we still have some artillery, and can build cover for ourselves. So, trying to cover what I've been thinking in words for now - - HEGEL should not only stop, but also retreat towards St. C. and form a wedge covering its southern and western edges, protruding slightly to be able to see any troops sneaking through the woods (4 in). Artillery can be stationed between the town and her lines. - Reinforcements should similarly form a wedge covering the south and flank at the eastern side. - Sandman and Saros should remain where they are. - There isn't too much space at the western edge of town to deploy more than one brigade effectively. And we do not want extended, exposed infantry lines without artillery support. We need a compact formation which can bear overwhelming fire from as many guns as possible against as many approaches as possible. A basically triangular formation with one side entirely protected by terrain is the best formation in attaining this objective. - Positioning troops symmetrically around the town with a brigade hidden inside gives us an opportunity to shift units defensively relatively quickly should we need to do so. Alternatively part of the reinforcements can be positioned along a northern approach to St. C., where it would be well shielded, and at the same time able to picot whichever way we would need at a moment's notice.
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Feb 28, 2017 19:44
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The reinforcement brigade requires: a commander, a selection of infantry/artillery/cavalry focus, and a Division to report to. It may enter from anywhere on your telephone map. You have no ability to acquire and use either tear gas or poison gas at present, although your interest in this form of warfare has been noted. Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 19:47
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Okay, important question: What precisely is in an artillery-focused reinforcement brigades? Because I have a plan I'm working on in Roll20 that depends on the answer.
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Feb 28, 2017 19:50
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You've seen an infantry reinforcement brigade. For artillery, subtract two infantry companies and one machine gun; add four 7.7cm FKs, which are integral units and count towards the total companies for morale checking purposes. A cavalry brigade has two arse hortillery, two MG, nine cavalry companies, a brigade commander, and a mounted engineer. They are all Veteran brigades which morale-check only at 2/3 casualties.
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Feb 28, 2017 20:04
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Oh well, no improvised warcriming. More seriously, I think our best bet is an artillery brigade. Also, where are our engineers at? Anywhere that could use trenches or barbed wire?
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Feb 28, 2017 20:19
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I've got one working near St C. I'm going to get them to ransack a farm this round and lay wire around St C in the cover of darkness.
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Feb 28, 2017 20:25
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steinrokkan posted:I can't seem to post a picture because Imgur seems to be broken ATM, but... Seconding this.
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Feb 28, 2017 20:35
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Okay, posted my thoughts on Roll20, but repeating them here: given what an artillery-focused brigade consists of, I think we should bring an infantry brigade on instead, or maybe even a cavalry one, and try to roll up the French trench line from its eastern flank. Because quite simply, no matter what we do, we can't concentrate enough artillery around St. Croissants to keep the French out if they come in force, and that's even if the French give us the time we need to set up our defenses. What we need to do is disrupt the French, maybe even kill a few of their guns, and buy time that way.
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Feb 28, 2017 20:57
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Attacking blind, with our last troops, into an enemy stronghold, at night, when we don't really understand the rules? Sorry, I can't endorse that. Personally I would like to see the effect of trenches, we haven't seen an assault at an entrenched position yet. Pity we don't have any wire.
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Feb 28, 2017 21:03
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What does a cavalry brigade consist of, for us? EDIT: And I can give you a look at a trench assault if I go after their guns come nightfall. steinrokkan posted:Attacking blind, with our last troops, into an enemy stronghold, at night, when we don't really understand the rules? Sorry, I can't endorse that. Even with reinforcements, we can't hold St. Croissants against what the Entente can throw at it. If the artillery-focused reinforcements had been primarily or entirely artillery like I'd hoped, it could have worked. Infantry alone won't be enough. The Sandman fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 21:04
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Trying to charge an entrenched enemy gunline, even under cover of night, is absolutely pants-on-head retarded with how few units we have left. We dig in, hold what we still have, and pray we last long enough to run down the timer.
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Feb 28, 2017 21:35
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Better plan, then: bring cavalry on in the northwest quadrant and send it to help you hold Quatrepouts. If your brigade gets destroyed and we lose that town, the only timer left to run out is the one until we've been attritioned to death.
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Feb 28, 2017 21:59
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I'm honestly starting to suspect that they are mixing rage virus into the Roggenbrot at the Prussian military academy. Attacking an at least equal-sized entrenched enemy including emplaced guns forces an encounter that could not possibly be more stacked in the enemy's favor. It does the exact opposite of buying time. We can get an artillery-heavy brigade and entrench that around StC, that would buy some time. We have lost like 20 more units than the enemy, that's not unsurmountable if we can get favorable exchange rates for a while by making them attack against entrenched forces. You're making it sound like we're outnumbered ten to one. aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 22:00
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By the time anything can conceivably get to me I'm either standing triumphantly atop a mountain of British corpses built on miraculous dice rolls, or buried under a slightly smaller mountain that I made sure to take down with me. My personal course of action would be to call in an artillery brigade and dig in around Croissant. The timer's gonna start in 2 turns when the runner gets to HQ, and when it runs out we almost definitely won't have Q anymore but we can totally manage a hold on Croissant for the minor objective at least. E: More specifically, I'd be wary of nighttime attacks on both the west in HEGEL's territory and Baguette if they're feeling frisky, to try and set up for a more organized attack once day breaks again. Trin, is there any downside to marching the men around all night/upside to letting them catch some downtime? Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 22:07
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Our challenge is to figure out a unit placement that doesn't allow them to plink away at our infantry with no repercussion. If we manage that, we can give them a taste of their own medicine.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:08
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aphid_licker posted:I'm honestly starting to suspect that they are mixing rage virus into the Roggenbrot at the Prussian military academy. Attacking an at least equal-sized entrenched enemy including emplaced guns forces an encounter that could not possibly be more stacked in the enemy's favor. It does the exact opposite of buying time. cryodude, your elan is to be comended, but drink a schnapps or two and consider our position. edit: i was telling you not to flip out with sorrow last night, now i'm telling you not to flip out with bloodthirstiness. am i the calmest brigade commander here?
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Feb 28, 2017 22:08
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Wait, did I word something wrong? I mean to advocate we dig in around Croissant and hope to survive long enough that Moltke rides to the rescue. I've basically given my own guys up as lost - we'll sit here in Q and do our best to hold it, but the BEF is probably going to pry us out with their bayonets.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:10
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So this is what I have been talking about, now as a dumb picture:
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Feb 28, 2017 22:12
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Yeah, that's about what I'm thinking. No ill-advised attacks on entrenched enemy guns or heroic but ultimately doomed attempts to retake Dejeuner/reinforce me. Turtle up and wait it out.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:14
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