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Those were some pretty cool levels! The line guides/layer 2 one reminded me of the NSMB levels, what with all the moving parts. And the switch palace felt like something that I could have figured out on my own without needing to know a lot about the mechanics of SMW, while still being an interesting puzzle. What is that tile type (the one the sprites slide on) used for in the vanilla game?
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Feb 25, 2017 22:10
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Those were some pretty cool levels! The line guides/layer 2 one reminded me of the NSMB levels, what with all the moving parts. And the switch palace felt like something that I could have figured out on my own without needing to know a lot about the mechanics of SMW, while still being an interesting puzzle. I honestly have no idea what it's used for! I'm pretty sure it never shows up in vanilla. My theory is that that specific tile is used for something in a different tileset and works properly there without the properties you see here in this video. But when it's used outside it's original specific tileset I would venture that its functionality breaks to some extent but not so far as to break the game or glitch it out. As such people have discovered ways to use this partially broken tile in puzzles and design. That's all just a guess though. I understand the applications of the tile but I really don't know why or how it works! Maybe Tyty does.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:28
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The 1F0 row exist only to be under the purple triangles and are needed to make those function correctly (1F8 in particular is used most of the time in the vanilla game, i think). I have no idea why they suspend sprites in air like this on their own but yeah, makes for some neat interactions and gimmicks.
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Feb 26, 2017 01:36
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I am dying to know what the drat music is in the switch palaces for VLDC9. I can't seem to find any information, but I'm positive I've heard that song before...
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Feb 26, 2017 10:18
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Cool guys walk straight into explosions. ROCKMAN CX #9: Are Those Spikes Instant Kills? (Heavy Sigh, Shinryu, El Generico, NGDBSS, and Simply Simon)
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Feb 26, 2017 18:53
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Let's Play Link to the Past Randomized with CirclMastr and Combat Lobster Episode 10 This episode is slightly less bullshit than the last one.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:19
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CirclMastr posted:slightly less bullshit *immediately starts randomly falling into holes and is shot by lasers while invisible* Shows just how bullshit it was before.
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Feb 28, 2017 01:45
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CirclMastr posted:Let's Play Link to the Past Randomized with CirclMastr and Combat Lobster Your lack of audio is hilarious. *crash* *crash* *crash* Looks like the bridge isn't collapsing.....oh wait
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Feb 28, 2017 02:45
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 Lots of good examples of how to use a moving Layer 2 today. The frequency of it comes from recent hacking developments that allow for easy creation of Layer 3 backgrounds, something that had been previously very technical and challenging to get working. Space World has been really kind to us so far!
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Feb 28, 2017 22:12
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So when do we see the number 1 rated level?
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Feb 28, 2017 22:27
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Space world's levels all look really fun and not full of the dumb bullshit that seemed to plague the forest and grasslands.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:37
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Could you give an explanation on the different layers? It sounds really interesting but at the same time I never fully understand what you guys mean with them.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:47
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What were the Kirby and Final Fantasy tracks used in the levels? I understood the Mega Man music as Dark Man's fortress in MM5.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:56
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Edit: Wait, no, that's FF5 dungeon music.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:31
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That's a really nice touch that they put the bounce platform from the level on the overworld. Kudos to whoever's in charge of that!
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Mar 1, 2017 00:08
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Blaze Dragon posted:Could you give an explanation on the different layers? It sounds really interesting but at the same time I never fully understand what you guys mean with them. I'll make an attempt at this one. So The SNES has 5 "Layers" (that I know of, I'm pretty sure of this fact though). They are labeled Layers 1-4 and Sprites. Layer 4 is never used in 99% of games so I won't bother with it, which is good because I don't really understand it either. I'm going to talk about them in the context of a standard Super Mario World level: Layer 1 is the foreground. Mario and Sprites interact with this layer. Layer 2 is the background. Mario and Sprites do not interact with this layer. Layer 3 is the status bar. Sprite Layer is almost all enemies and moving parts. There are also a few other sprites available, like Generators (used for spawning Bullet Bills) and Triggers (dictating autoscroll and more). So a standard SMW level will have Mario running around on Layer 1 and that's the extent of his interaction with the level. Here's where things get a little more complicated. SMW has what are called Level Modes. They change values in the level's header to dictate different types of level. Modes control if the level is horizontal or vertical, if it has a dark background, if it is transparent and more. They also control what Lunar Magic refers to as Layer 2 Levels. In a Layer 2 level, the Layers setup is changed: Layer 1 is still the foreground. Mario and Sprites interact with this layer. Layer 2 is a second foreground layer now. Depending on the Level Mode chosen, Mario + Sprites can or cannot interact with Layer 2. Layer 3 is still the status bar but it also becomes a limited background. More on this later. Sprites Layer stays the same. Some generators or triggers might be incompatible with Layer 2 Levels. So why would you want to make a Layer 2 Level? Well, SMW has a number of triggers that work with Layer 2. These triggers enable or disable different types of Layer 2 scrolling. This is how SMW achieves what's known as a "Moving Layer 2." Example of this in the vanilla game include Donut Plains 2 (the autoscrolling cave), the second half of Lemmy's Castle and plenty more. There's also a trigger for Layer 2 Smashers. This causes the entirety of Layer 2 to be quickly moved up and down, usually in combination with the mega spike tiles, to act as crushers. Moving Layer 2 levels tend to be a little more dynamic because of the moving parts and so they're an appealing thing to include in a level set every once in a while. There are some downsides to Layer 2 though. For one, a Layer 2 enabling Level Mode works by halving the number of available screens you can work with. A regular level can have 32 screens where a Layer 2 one can only have 16. The second and bigger downside is that in order to achieve a moving Layer 2, the game actually needs to get rid of the background. If you think back to the vanilla game, any instance of a Moving Layer 2 level is accompanied by a black screen in the background. However, to accommodate for the lack of background when using Layer 2, Nintendo created a few Layer 3 backgrounds. They are very simple backgrounds built out of only 3 colors + transparency and use some of the same colors as the status bar. They're fairly restrictive and were the biggest downside of using Layer 2 for a long time. However, it appears technology has advanced and proper Layer 3 backgrounds are now available. They are still limited to 3 colors + transparency but we are now able to design and assemble custom Layer 3 backgrounds to accompany Moving Layer 2 levels. You'll see them all throughout Episode 13. While they may not look like simple Layer 3 backgrounds, the trick to noticing them is to count the colors you see in the moving background. In Soul's Temple for instance, the far background might have a complex mountain and clouds pattern but it still only uses 3 colors for all of the shading. The 4th color that's back there is the level's BG color, a color that is removed from the rest of the level's palette and can be set independently to replace whatever transparent pixels are left in the background. So, careful design of your layer 3 background can actually get around the 3 color limitation by using the BG color as a 4th color! (You can count the colors for yourself below.) "But wait, Soul's Temple doesn't actually have any moving parts?" you might notice. And that's true, it doesn't. So why does it use a Layer 3 background? Well, Layers 1 and 2 can overlap each other.  See, by overlapping Layers 1 and 2, you can create more complex graphical scenes that you wouldn't be capable of doing without editing the actual pixels of the graphics. Since this contest doesn't allow you to draw new tiles, people have to be creative in presenting what look like new graphics. Overlapping allows you to have that lower level of tree leaves overlapping the ground tiles. Or let's look at a more complex scene:  Here, the leaves overlap the blue bricks, then the blue pillars attached to them overlap the green bricks in back. More than just creating complex scenes, you can create the illusion of depth in a game that only has a maximum of 3 layers available to edit (I'm not counting Sprites because they don't factor in here). As a wrap up, the SNES's Mode 7 flips the Layers system on its head. Mode 7 is used for scaling and rotating of onscreen elements. When the Koopalings squish and stretch, when Bowser flies into the background then out of the front of the screen, when the elevator shaft in Super Metroid's intro tilts sideways as it explodes, the raceways in Super Mario Kart, all of those are instances of Mode 7 being used. So how does it work? Well, anything that gets scaled or rotated is actually transferred onto Layer 1. In the Bowser fight, the platforms Mario stands on are actually on Layer 3. (edit: correction, it's the Sprite layer not Layer 3) I think Layer 2 is completely disabled for the whole scene and the status bar is transferred to the Sprite Layer temporarily. Mode 7 is incredibly weird as evidenced by how much it messed with the usual Layer system. It wouldn't be until the SuperFX chip was developed and used in later games that you could have per-sprite scaling and rotation like in Yoshi's Island. (Of note, some SMW hacks have gotten the SuperFX chip working in them but since SMW enemies don't scale or rotate by default there's not usually much use for it unless the hacker wants to import Yoshi's Island enemies.) Once again, my explanations go on way longer than I ever intend them to but hopefully you and others found it interesting. I know so much about this game from years of being involved with the community so it's interesting to get to explain what we know as basic concepts to people with little to no background on the subject. FPzero fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Mar 1, 2017 |
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Mar 1, 2017 00:09
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FPzero posted:Once again, my explanations go on way longer than I ever intend them to but hopefully you and others found it interesting. I know so much about this game from years of being involved with the community so it's interesting to get to explain what we know as basic concepts to people with little to no background on the subject.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:25
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That actually explained a lot and now it all makes much more sense, thank you! It was also very interesting to read, regardless of clarifying things. I'd recommend keeping that for when the thread is archived, since otherwise the concept of Layers makes very little sense to those not in the topic (like me).
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Mar 1, 2017 01:25
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Quote is not edit Regardless, I'll definitely consider adding this and the other explanation I did before to the OP when archival time comes.
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Mar 1, 2017 02:07
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Trip report: I've been playing Metroid: Rogue Dawn, the new hack of the NES Metroid game. Unfortunately, after about three hours and getting the first three key upgrades (to wit: high-jump, bombs, Varia), I'm not impressed. I mean, sure, aesthetically the game's quite solid; the environments are much more organic than in the original, and it doesn't literally plop down 3-5 iterations of the same terrain pattern in a row the way the NES game did. Unfortunately, the actual gameplay is a step down. NES Metroid was not a great game, but it played to what few strengths it had. Gameplay was primarily a gauntlet, where the player would try to navigate difficult terrain while taking as little damage as possible; most punishment came in the form of the player falling into acid or lava after getting whacked in the face by an enemy. Rogue Dawn, in contrast, is technically more exploration-oriented, but what this really translates to is "do a bunch of finicky platforming challenges and be rewarded by a missile pack instead of something you actually want, because you chose the wrong path". The Metroid physics engine is not built with precision platforming in mind; Samus is slippery, damage knockback is huge, and the morphball/bomb physics are beyond bizarre. Even more damning, Rogue Dawn's idea of punishing failure is to force the player to fall to a lower area and have to redo a segment. And sometimes "failure" means "you were presented with a blind choice between 4 options and didn't pick the right one"! Like, literally, to get one E-tank, you have to guess which path through an invisible maze doesn't drop you down to an earlier area and necessitate retreading 30 seconds' worth of level. Come on, guys, as a society we've moved past this kind of game design. Meanwhile, there's little threat of death; enemies are not densely placed and there are periodic healing stations. Thus the game consists of tediously wandering aimlessly through a vast and largely undifferentiated world (it may be pretty, but most areas still look pretty samey), hoping you've stumbled across the one path that leads to actual progress instead of an upgrade that you don't really need. The game also incurs negative extra credit for making the player go to an underwater section right off the bat.  If you want to play a good Metroid game, play AM2R, or Metroid Eris (in my opinion the best of the many good Super Metroid hacks). Unless you're a major NES Metroid fan, you have better things to spend your time on than Rogue Dawn.
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Mar 1, 2017 03:12
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I haven't played Rogue Dawn yet so I can't comment on it but I find it funny that you point you that it has an early underwater segment as a negative, yet Eris also has early required suitless underwater segments. Actually wait, underwater segments in Metroid 1? poo poo that's impressive right then and there! I've been hearing some mixed things about Rogue Dawn and hope to check it out some day. My tolerance for exploration and bullshit in these games is generally pretty high (anyone remember that absolutely gigantic super metroid hack I mentioned playing at one point) so I feel like I'd have a good chance of making it through the whole thing.
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Mar 1, 2017 03:21
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Haha, that's a fair point. I'd forgotten about Eris' early underwater crap. The 2012 tweak of Eris doesn't make you go underwater until later, but it does still have a nontrivial amount of suitless underwater stuff.  I still maintain it's the best of the Super Metroid hacks, but ultimately it is still a ROM hack with all the baggage that entails.
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Mar 1, 2017 03:28
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My biggest issue with Rogue Dawn is that there's no real indication that bombable walls can be shot with your gun. Considering you need to do this to get any of the powerups and proceed past the beginning of the game, it's a fairly important concept that I only found out by googling what the gently caress to do. Not only that, I didn't realize that I ended up going and fighting the Ridley equivalent before Kraid, so I'd say that's both a positive for sequence breaking and a negative for a lack of a clear sequence to begin with. I will say I appreciate the level design enough to force a reset whenever you try and door glitch your way around an area, so that way you really do have to play through the whole game. Not as much the goofy stuff, like the crossword puzzle or the Grim Picker, stuff that could've been cut to make neater poo poo and not just goof off.
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Mar 1, 2017 05:47
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get that OUT of my face posted:What were the Kirby and Final Fantasy tracks used in the levels? I understood the Mega Man music as Dark Man's fortress in MM5. The Kirby music is a remix from Kirby's Block Ball. It uses instruments from Kirby's Dreamland 3 as a nice touch.
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Mar 1, 2017 06:14
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frankenfreak posted:Don't worry, I certainly found it interesting. I love learning about the nitty-gritty of old game engines and hardware architectures (like that Atari games LP someone did last year). Do you have a link to that LP I can't find it
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Mar 1, 2017 16:00
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hanales posted:Do you have a link to that LP I can't find it There was this Commodore 64 magazine?
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Mar 1, 2017 16:21
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hanales posted:Do you have a link to that LP I can't find it Archives needed: Retro-hacking for fun and madness: Let's Vivisect Solaris!
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Mar 1, 2017 17:30
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Editor's note: Joe died on the way back to his home fortress. ROCKMAN CX #10: The Ultraman Cometh (Heavy Sigh, Shinryu, El Generico, NGDBSS, Combat Lobster, and Simply Simon)
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Mar 1, 2017 18:42
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I wish this game wasn't so technically impressive because it's all being wasted on such a bad gameplay hack.
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Mar 1, 2017 18:57
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The time limit makes sense for Ultraman. He can't survive in our atmosphere for more than three minutes at a time. Also, he usually ends those three minutes with his big gently caress off laser.
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Mar 1, 2017 20:22
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Yeah but it at least would have turned back around into "Okay, that's pretty cool" if the hack let you progress by outlasting those 3 minutes.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:55
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It's way funnier that he just leaves
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Mar 1, 2017 21:58
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Yes, but it would have been better if he left and it counted as a victory, allowing you to progress.
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Mar 1, 2017 22:29
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 FF6 Rando Part 4 - Abominable Swordsman This is a long one, folks. Hope you're ready to watch a 50 minute episode!  I really, really wanted to apply some speedup somewhere to alleviate the video length, but the most I would have been able to do is shorten a two minute segment, which I honestly didn't find worth it.
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Mar 1, 2017 23:41
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Somehow Shadow being (relatively) untouched is the funniest thing to me in this entire randomizer run.
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Mar 2, 2017 05:56
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You used so many Tonics right before the free ghost buffet!
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Mar 2, 2017 06:02
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FPzero posted:Graphics have always been highly emphasized for as long as I've been a part of SMWCentral. Even back in 2008 when I started the first VLDC, fancy graphics (which were still uncommon enough at the time) were being used to substitute for actually fun gameplay. Appropriately, that was my main reason for starting the contest and setting the rules as I did. At the time, Lunar Magic had less graphical functionality and the rules I set in place regarding manipulations made designers really focus on gameplay over graphics. I think it went well overall and some really good levels were made as a result, but the scores given by the judges--myself included--were all over the place. So FPzero, what is your name on SMWcentral? I never thought you were such a prominent figure in the super mario world hacking community. I just want to see the posts you made on the original VLDC, that is why I am asking, since you are already so entertaining.
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Mar 2, 2017 17:27
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Pharohman777 posted:So FPzero, what is your name on SMWcentral? I never thought you were such a prominent figure in the super mario world hacking community. This is a very oddly worded question. liquidypoo posted:
I watched every second glued to my screen. Well, I was working on a spreadsheet, but I had it on on my phone with headphones for every second!
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Mar 2, 2017 19:34
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FPzero posted:I wish this game wasn't so technically impressive because it's all being wasted on such a bad gameplay hack. Yeah. And the worst part is, it saves the most impressive technology for last.
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Mar 2, 2017 20:56
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Heavy Sigh posted:Yeah. And the worst part is, it saves the most impressive technology for last. Don't tell me this game has smell-o-vision!!!!
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Mar 2, 2017 20:57
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