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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Like that kind of rhetoric is populist poo poo. Come up with a policy behind it. Remove loopholes and subsidizing that are exploited by the 1%, include corporate assets when taxing wealth citizens, cap charity tax deductions at 10,000 (upper-middle class and below still receive benefits, affluent cant shuffle money into fake charities), reduce taxes on middle class and below, raise taxes on the upper class and above. Obviously it could be more concrete, but I'm not a treasurer.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:37
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Brainiac Five posted:Who ever said that, though? You're just looking for a fight without the chance of risking your useless carcass. You seemed astonished by the claim that people don't want to be unloaded on by some politician with a million fine points, thus starting our journey together. e: o poo poo migf in the house
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Feb 28, 2017 23:38
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Condiv posted:you guys are always complaining about "oh no, the republicans will sink us with this!" whenever any leftist idea comes up. then you block it. that's why centrists can't be worked with, because they reject leftist ideology as impossible. gotta purge all the centrists That's not what I am doing at all, dumby.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:38
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:The republican response to that, is "why do you want to kill jobs? those taxes will kill jobs. why do you hate jobs? don't you see, those are the job creators." and people eat that poo poo right up. There are good left-of-center answers to this line, though. Too often, the Democratic response has been, "Yes, you're right, taxes ARE bad and job-killing! Sorry we brought it up."
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Feb 28, 2017 23:38
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Confounding Factor posted:And this is why Democrats keep losing, they keep trying to appeal to the rational voter. This nation isn't made up of a bunch of Spocks dude. Well, that's the thing. If Americans are creatures of the gut who need to be controlled by technocrats, in your opinion, you are not a leftist and you need to be opposed by actual leftists. So you need to be honest with yourself instead of thinking leftism is just elaborate flimflam artistry done with noble intentions. Furthermore, I don't actually believe everyone is a moron, because unlike you I don't cringe in fear at the thought of sunlight and so I can tell you that people are quite, quite capable of having opinions on things and they do have opinions on things and they like to share them. Sorry your belief that you're part of an elect elite is self-aggrandizing bullshit, but you'll live. Homeless Friend posted:You seemed astonished by the claim that people don't want to be unloaded on by some politician with a million fine points, thus starting our journey together. Maybe you should take a leaf from my book and assume malevolence before stupidity. Or gently caress off back to your ickle forum and never come out again.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:39
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:The republican response to that, is "why do you want to kill jobs? those taxes will kill jobs. why do you hate jobs? don't you see, those are the job creators." and people eat that poo poo right up. Nah dude people hate Wall Street and that's a weak rear end response: "[The GOP candidate] is lying. Obviously he's lying! that's the same lie Wall Street people have been paying politicians to tell you for the past forty years! Remember when Bush's tax cuts were supposed to make our economy amazing?? Yeah I think we all remember how well that worked out. All of us who didn't make billions off of the mortgage crisis that is. I can understand why [GOP candidate] forgot because his family probably made a ton of money foreclosing on black people and little old grannies back in 2008, but people like you and me know the whole thing was a disaster." Call him a liar-> pivot to the market collapse. Ad infinitum. Brainiac Five posted:Well, for one thing, you assume everyone falls for con artists completely instead of being aware that the person is a liar. People vote for politicians who address their grievances. They don't give a poo poo if their politician is lying about some specific piece of policy. All politicians are liars and it makes people feel good when they can tell a politician they like is lying to win political advantage.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:40
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Neurolimal posted:cap charity tax deductions at 10,000 (upper-middle class and below still receive benefits, affluent cant shuffle money into fake charities) On specific policy proposals this one is one you need to be careful with, tbh. Neurolimal posted:Remove loopholes and subsidizing that are exploited by the 1% Like? Neurolimal posted:reduce taxes on middle class and below, raise taxes on the upper class and above. By doing?
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Feb 28, 2017 23:40
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:All aboard taxing the rich here. Just want you to tell me what your plan here is beyond lifting a disingenuous Trump stump speech. you really honestly want to know? in my ideal world, massive taxes on anyone making more than 700k a year. like 95% income tax above that. i also want to boost the hell out of the capital gains tax and i want a tiny tax on trades to gently caress over HFT. but i'd be happy with the taxes needed for a public option and getting universities affordable again. also money for infrastructure redevelopment jobs cause they're falling apart and initiatives to stop police from being able to kill black people on a whim.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:41
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Confounding Factor posted:I think its clear Perez was picked because idpol and with all the insane deportation poo poo, why not have a latino fighting on behalf of them? The DSA is entryist and can better be understood as a caucus straddling, but not within, the Democrats
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Feb 28, 2017 23:42
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The Kingfish posted:Nah dude people hate Wall Street and that's a weak rear end response: I am real skeptical that actually works. Condiv posted:you really honestly want to know? in my ideal world, massive taxes on anyone making more than 700k a year. like 95% income tax above that. i also want to boost the hell out of the capital gains tax and i want a tiny tax on trades to gently caress over HFT. but i'd be happy with the taxes needed for a public option and getting universities affordable again. also money for infrastructure redevelopment jobs cause they're falling apart and initiatives to stop police from being able to kill black people on a whim. Thank you and though I think many of those things are in the "puppy and rainbow" catagory, it helps.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:43
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When Republicans talk about jobs, they aren't talking about jobs; they're selling hope. Hope, for a better future for your kids. Your culturally white, productive children. Hope that Americans often believe in, because it is the hope that they want to hear. It is the hope for an easy answer, or at least, an easy answer for the next 20 years. What do they care if the answer doesn't work out after that? Here in America we have freedom of movement; if the environment is destroyed, the tourism dead, the boundary waters polluted, who gives a gently caress? I got my 20 years of investing in my future, and I like that more than I like the thought of a job. To defeat Republicans, one must learn to kill hope while winning votes.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:44
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The Kingfish posted:People vote for people who address their grievances and they don't give a poo poo if their politician is lying about some specific piece of policy. You do that, and your family may do that, (or they may lie to you because they don't want you throwing more tantrums and breaking the furniture again) but arguing that everyone does that seems rather arrogant and presumptive, almost as if you believed you alone an interpret der wille des volk. Condiv posted:you really honestly want to know? in my ideal world, massive taxes on anyone making more than 700k a year. like 95% income tax above that. i also want to boost the hell out of the capital gains tax and i want a tiny tax on trades to gently caress over HFT. but i'd be happy with the taxes needed for a public option and getting universities affordable again. also money for infrastructure redevelopment jobs cause they're falling apart and initiatives to stop police from being able to kill black people on a whim. Okay, and how do you respond to the line of attack that raising the capital gains tax will discourage businesses from investing and growing because they'll make more money by sitting on it? Or the simplified "raising the capital gains tax kills jobs"?
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Feb 28, 2017 23:44
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Brainiac Five posted:Well, that's the thing. If Americans are creatures of the gut who need to be controlled by technocrats, in your opinion, you are not a leftist and you need to be opposed by actual leftists. So you need to be honest with yourself instead of thinking leftism is just elaborate flimflam artistry done with noble intentions. That's not what he's saying, though. What he's saying is that the Dems need to take a page out of Bill Clinton's book (shocking, I know): feel their pain. Let the voters know that the Dem leaders aren't just going to respond to Rust Belt job losses with saying, "Well, NAFTA created more jobs than it destroyed, so..." Because while that's technically correct, it doesn't exactly demonstrate empathy.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:45
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Kilroy posted:I think the fundamental disconnect between people like JeffersonClay and most progressives is that progressives are generally progressives first, and Democrats second. I mean nearly any progressive would be happy with overall Dem victory even if it came at the cost of giving progressivism any substantial voice in national politics, but it would definitely be a hollow "victory" and certainly not something to be enthusiastic about. That is, we see the Democratic party as a vehicle for advancing the progressive agenda at every level of government, whereas establishment Dems see the reverse (progressivism is useful to the extent it can benefit the party). This doesn't bare even the tiniest bit of relation to the actual results we have seen. Not only do we have numerous cases of huge protest and active dissent if dem victory comes with advancing a progressive voice, you have continues to spew venom even when they DO adopt a progressive voice if it's not the voice you wanted. Which is why you fall hook line and sinker for right wing propaganda meant to seperately the left every. Single. Time.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:45
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I am real skeptical that actually works. It literally just worked. But my way involves must less lying because it's mostly true. And it doesn't alienate half the country. The only people who it deeply offends are the out-of-touch types who read the party platform and will vote for the candidate whose party they support regardless.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:45
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:It's incredible how "so what's the policy proposal you have beyond yelling about tax the rich" is "considering defeat." pay for free college .
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Feb 28, 2017 23:46
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So I was in class, what did I mi-I kid, I kid. I know we are still arguing. One thing I want to say about Perez, Is that he at least gave vice-chairmanship to Ellison. Honestly, I think that really this left wing rebel rousing has done some good, without having to throw anyone under the bus. The establishment has noticed that the leftwing part of the coalition is unhappy, and will likely make moves to placate them, which should encourage turnout in the economic part of the democratic coalition, increasing support. It isn't like businesses don't succeed under left wing policies.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:46
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Majorian posted:That's not what he's saying, though. What he's saying is that the Dems need to take a page out of Bill Clinton's book (shocking, I know): feel their pain. Let the voters know that the Dem leaders aren't just going to respond to Rust Belt job losses with saying, "Well, NAFTA created more jobs than it destroyed, so..." Because while that's technically correct, it doesn't exactly demonstrate empathy. No, what he's actually saying is that Americans are too stupid to care about policy, ever. That "I feel your pain" was enough, and Slick Willy didn't need to do anything, just engage in a performance of doing things. Majorian, instead of inventing pleasanter, smarter arguments for people to pirate off of you, you need to find something that won't get you exploited.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:46
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Thank you and though I think many of those things are in the "puppy and rainbow" catagory, it helps. Hell, I'd be happy if we just drone strike anybody who has evaded more money in taxes than the total cost of the drone & hellfire missle. 
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Feb 28, 2017 23:46
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:On specific policy proposals this one is one you need to be careful with, tbh. Obviously you need to be careful. That's why I'm not the politician that needs to be writing these policies. That's Kingfishes' ultimate point; people want to know what your goals and intentions are, because they aren't specialized to interpret raw political actions. When you ask a carpenter to fix your chair, he doesn't then ask you how the wood snapped, the date of the wood, what brand of wood glue you want to use, whether the seat needs to be reinforced, if he would like softwood or hardwood struts, yadda yadda yadda, you get the idea. You have faith that he is skilled in this area and can translate what you want done, and if he succeeds your faith is rewarded and you feel safer depending on him for future repairs. Thats what the democrats need. Dependability and rewarded faith. quote:By doing? By pushing bills that create new community-positive organizations and projects that would be funded through new taxes paid by the rich, and amendments to prior bills that are paid for by the poor to instead be paid by the rich or even a mixture. Parks, repairs, subsidized housing, transit (local and cross-country), free trade classes for areas we are lacking in skilled tradesmen, research centers in dying towns, all those great things. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 23:47
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Majorian posted:That's not what he's saying, though. What he's saying is that the Dems need to take a page out of Bill Clinton's book (shocking, I know): feel their pain. Let the voters know that the Dem leaders aren't just going to respond to Rust Belt job losses with saying, "Well, NAFTA created more jobs than it destroyed, so..." Because while that's technically correct, it doesn't exactly demonstrate empathy. You been to any meetings of folks liberally minded anytime lately, Majorian? There is more concern about circlejerking than there is in listening at folk and addressing what they're really saying. The party may win the executive once or twice by going all-in on Sanderist rhetoric; we will only win Congress when we can sell hope in a manner that ain't from the left, ain't from the right, in a manner that is a third way forward.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:47
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The Kingfish posted:It literally just worked. But my way involves must less lying because it's mostly true. And it doesn't alienate half the country. The only people who it deeply offends are the out-of-touch types who read the party platform and will vote for the candidate whose party they support regardless. And you think Trump's explicit racism and sexism played no part in his victory and that if we just peddle people populism, they'll go for it hook line and sinker and we should just abandon social and racial justice in favor of class war?
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Feb 28, 2017 23:47
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Fulchrum posted:This doesn't bare even the tiniest bit of relation to the actual results we have seen. Not only do we have numerous cases of huge protest and active dissent if dem victory comes with advancing a progressive voice, you have continues to spew venom even when they DO adopt a progressive voice if it's not the voice you wanted. Which is why you fall hook line and sinker for right wing propaganda meant to seperately the left every. Single. Time. Oh no we might make the GOP mad. Let's just not do anything as long as they SE sociopaths are angry.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:48
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Crowsbeak posted:Reinstate Glass Stegal. Keep financiers in check. Also increased taxes to How do this sell hope to the white upper mid-westerner?
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Feb 28, 2017 23:48
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Brainiac Five posted:No, what he's actually saying is that Americans are too stupid to care about policy, ever. That "I feel your pain" was enough, and Slick Willy didn't need to do anything, just engage in a performance of doing things. Majorian, instead of inventing pleasanter, smarter arguments for people to pirate off of you, you need to find something that won't get you exploited. Eh, people like policy when it helps them.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:48
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:And you think Trump's explicit racism and sexism played no part in his victory and that if we just peddle people populism, they'll go for it hook line and sinker and we should just abandon social and racial justice in favor of class war? Why wouldn't Trump style populist rhetoric also work for social and racial justice?
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Feb 28, 2017 23:49
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My Imaginary GF posted:How do this sell hope to the white upper mid-westerner? They don't like banks. The hope is healthcare.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:49
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thechosenone posted:Eh, people like policy when it helps them. People like policy when they perceive it to help them and theirs above others. People hate policy when they perceive it to help someone that ain't them and theys first.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:49
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:And you think Trump's explicit racism and sexism played no part in his victory and that if we just peddle people populism, they'll go for it hook line and sinker and we should just abandon social and racial justice in favor of class war? Do you think Minorities hate the idea of income equality?
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Feb 28, 2017 23:49
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Majorian posted:I think the other reason why the Dems need to call for single payer is because, if there's one thing they ought to have learned from Obama's two terms, it's that they need to highball their demands when negotiating with Republicans. Obama started from too much of a position of compromise when the legislation that became the ACA was first proposed. I don't necessarily blame him personally for that, because I know he's someone who believed very much in institutions like the Senate, and that belief was, well, disappointed. The point is, the strategy didn't work, and it doesn't look like good-faith negotiation with Republicans in Congress has any chance of working in the future. I know, no poo poo, Sherlock. But it does have a lot of bearing on how the Dems need to strategize their message going forward. I think the lesson from Obama is that there's no negotiating with Republicans.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:50
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Neurolimal posted:Obviously you need to be careful. That's why I'm not the politician that needs to be writing these policies. That's Kingfishes' ultimate point; people want to know what your goals and intentions are, because they aren't specialized to interpret raw political actions. But this ignores a huge problem of people don't understand the difference in "the rich" and them in a meaningful way. Like I am just cautioning that there are limits to what can be achieved through populism.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:50
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Brainiac Five posted:Maybe you should take a leaf from my book and assume malevolence before stupidity. Or gently caress off back to your ickle forum and never come out again. b5 you're so hateful
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Feb 28, 2017 23:50
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My Imaginary GF posted:People like policy when they perceive it to help them and theirs above others. People hate policy when they perceive it to help someone that ain't them and theys first. Do we not have policies that help non-white people first?
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Feb 28, 2017 23:50
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There's this really interesting tendency where "populism" is totally divorced from the historical People's Party/Populists, who were formed around a wonkish argument about the necessity of an inflationary monetary policy that was put together and promulgated by farmers. In fact, there were multiple such groups, and lengthy public debates over Greenbacks versus Free Silver. I guess Americans have just become stupider since the 1880s though.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:50
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Thank you and though I think many of those things are in the "puppy and rainbow" catagory, it helps. that's why i get pissed at centrists. just cause you think it's unfeasible atm you never push for these kinds of things. meaning they never have a chance of happening. centrists have even voted against leftist policy that could've passed, like that drug reimportation bill. and it's why i've started viewing centrists as obstacles instead of allies
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Feb 28, 2017 23:51
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thechosenone posted:Do you think Minorities hate the idea of income equality? I think that for a lot of minorities, they hear and know that if you do not address systemic racism first or as a major part, that anything you do to improve "economic equality" automatically helps white people more than it helps them. This is, of course, a larger debate of intersectionality, but I think it's an important thing to remember.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:51
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Brainiac Five posted:No, what he's actually saying is that Americans are too stupid to care about policy, ever. I'm guessing he won't agree that that's what he's saying. quote:That "I feel your pain" was enough, and Slick Willy didn't need to do anything, just engage in a performance of doing things. Who's talking about just engaging in a performance of things, though? I think the Dems should mean it when they say that they feel the working class' pain. I think they absolutely should give a poo poo about things like economic justice, as well as social justice. I think they should propose policies that are in line with those convictions. But if they want to get elected, they at least have to convince the working class that they care about their interests more than the Republicans. For the last several years, they've been failing at that pretty spectacularly. Time for a course correction.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:52
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Brainiac Five posted:There's this really interesting tendency where "populism" is totally divorced from the historical People's Party/Populists, who were formed around a wonkish argument about the necessity of an inflationary monetary policy that was put together and promulgated by farmers. In fact, there were multiple such groups, and lengthy public debates over Greenbacks versus Free Silver. I guess Americans have just become stupider since the 1880s though. Has anyone here been using the historical definition of populism here besides you? if so, would you care to share the definition you use for populism?
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Feb 28, 2017 23:52
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Condiv posted:that's why i get pissed at centrists. just cause you think it's unfeasible atm you never push for these kinds of things. meaning they never have a chance of happening. centrists have even voted against leftist policy that could've passed, like that drug reimportation bill. and it's why i've started viewing centrists as obstacles instead of allies Drug re-importation isn't a "lefitst" thing per-sey though.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:52
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"I hate to say it folks I really do, but we've got a huge problem with police violence in this country. Black people are being disrespected in their own neighborhoods! They're getting beat, they're getting shot and the politicians aren't doing anything about it! It's almost like they don't care huh folks??
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Feb 28, 2017 23:52
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