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CommonShore posted:Here's the only video I could find of that technique, known in Judo as Uki Otoshi, working in competition: Thats cool, and i think it is kind of to my point that there are some important differences between the way its taught in judo vs. aikido. In judo you start with a collar and sleeve or two sleeve grip, and you disrupt their kuzushi then execute the throw (more or less?) Theres a similar technique in wrestling too when you have an inside tie/collar tie and the guy is pushing towards you. Its a simple principle and I think trying to practice it exactly the way the aikido instructor shows in the vid (with a guy running towards you with an outstretched arm??) would be actively harmful versus starting with the principle and figuring it out yourself with live practice and an open mind
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Mar 1, 2017 00:51
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Uki Otoshi is the first technique in the judo throwing kata because it's pretty much a straight example of the principle of kuzushi.
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CommonShore posted:Here's the only video I could find of that technique, known in Judo as Uki Otoshi, working in competition: At the risk of being a pedant, but this move is uchimata sukashi - counter to uchimata, a technique which Inoue is possibly the all time master of. Kosei Inoue was also freak loving athlete and possibly the GOAT non-heavyweight Judoka. He was a -100kg player who regularly competed with and defeated heavyweights. Most importantly, he trained hard as a motherfucker all the goddamn time, something far more important than technique or school or philosophy or style. If you want to be good at fighting, fight hard and push yourself in training. There are no secrets, no shortcuts, no mystical knowledge which will make you a good martial artist. There is only hard work. Anything else is bullshit.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:53
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hi liter posted:At the risk of being a pedant, but this move is uchimata sukashi - counter to uchimata, a technique which Inoue is possibly the all time master of. Agree with all of this.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:55
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hi liter posted:If you want to be good at fighting, fight hard and push yourself in training. There are no secrets, no shortcuts, no mystical knowledge which will make you a good martial artist. There is only hard work. Anything else is bullshit. I agree but while we're here i do think its annoying when this is trotted out to defend bad technique, when people say "its not the style, its the practitioner" - thats true to a degree but if the technique is half as effective youll have to work twice as hard to make it work for you. There are no shortcuts but there are more and less efficient ways of getting the same result
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Mar 1, 2017 01:06
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LionArcher posted:And you've got me in this thread at 6 ft and 210. (I'm cutting to 190ish starting tomorrow). Which is funny, because my head sensei is about 5.9 and would be BRUTAL in a sparing match.
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Mar 1, 2017 01:27
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manyak posted:Really its just a long-winded way of saying the obvious, that techniques that actually "work" come out of thoughtful, goal-oriented, live practice or competition. Thats the quickest way to end up with something thats actually useful, and tradition is only worth as much as how it gets you to that point. Aikido has a lot of tradition thats a waste of time. Sorry for rambling but you did ask for detail I was actually hoping you'd claim how aikido doesn't have X thing so I could point out how it totally does have X thing, just done terribly. 
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Mar 1, 2017 11:21
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hi liter posted:At the risk of being a pedant, but this move is uchimata sukashi - counter to uchimata, a technique which Inoue is possibly the all time master of. And that's the only video I could find of anything like that throw working in competition. That's the point.
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Mar 1, 2017 14:39
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We have an ex-aikido/TKD guy at my bjj gym. He's a decent blue belt, competes often, pretty athletic and smart. I only do OK against him because I have 25kg on him. Anyway, sometimes he wrist locks me when I'm in his guard and I hate it.
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Mar 1, 2017 15:42
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Neon Belly posted:We have an ex-aikido/TKD guy at my bjj gym. He's a decent blue belt, competes often, pretty athletic and smart. I only do OK against him because I have 25kg on him. Anyway, sometimes he wrist locks me when I'm in his guard and I hate it. I'm impressed if he's doing that from a postured position
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Mar 1, 2017 16:29
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Wrist locks from bottom are hard to finish but you can weaken posture and move people with them. Which is cool when you're not particularly strong. On that topic... CommonShore posted:Heh the Aikido apologist I know IRL is like 6'5" and 250 lb. +1 This is the biggest thing that turned me against Aikido (which I trained in a few years, even!). Big strong guys could execute stuff, but for my bird body... it never worked out. The few times I was bigger than my training partner, well then I could run through the whole roster. I know big guys will say: "well there is someone even bigger at my gym and etc. etc." but I promise it is almost never the same being 225 vs 260 and 165 vs 200. After a certain size, it is pretty rare to see the commensurate increases in strength per lb you see sub 200. Also, for absolutely giant people to have enough speed/balance/dexterity to really use anything is rare as hell. The only things I could make work consistently were things taught by our ex-Judo and even ex-kickboxing black belts. AKA: guys with real life competitive experience teaching basically techniques from their old backgrounds in a different context. So i decided I was better off spending time just doing those things.
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Mar 2, 2017 18:47
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So we learned the RNC in Judo, and it was a lot different to the BJJ version. Instead of applying pressure to either side of the neck, you use your the curve of your wrist to apply pressure right above your Adam's Apple. It's not on the windpipe, but it hurts! Seems like it's more of a pain choke then a blood choke, because I'm not sure how you could endure that long enough to actually pass out. Is this legal in BJJ? Because it seems way more effective than the arm-on-bicep version.
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Mar 5, 2017 19:34
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Basically all chokes are legal in BJJ. The specific choke you are referencing seems really easy to defend though.
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Mar 5, 2017 19:38
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JaySB posted:Basically all chokes are legal in BJJ. The specific choke you are referencing seems really easy to defend though. The orthodox judo method is pretty much what Neil Melanson was doing in that vid you posted a few pages back. It would be easy to turn out of it if your face wasn't on uke's face.
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Mar 5, 2017 20:57
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CommonShore posted:The orthodox judo method is pretty much what Neil Melanson was doing in that vid you posted a few pages back. It would be easy to turn out of it if your face wasn't on uke's face. Gotcha. Was having trouble envisioning the method.
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Mar 5, 2017 21:03
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What are people's view of the paper cutter choke here? I'm finding myself using it more and more when I pass to side control but some people call it a move that leads to DQ.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:15
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Odddzy posted:What are people's view of the paper cutter choke here? I'm finding myself using it more and more when I pass to side control but some people call it a move that leads to DQ. DQ? Seriously?
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Mar 5, 2017 22:20
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Odddzy posted:What are people's view of the paper cutter choke here? I'm finding myself using it more and more when I pass to side control but some people call it a move that leads to DQ. Its actually something I should try to look for more. Also: CommonShore posted:DQ? Seriously?
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Mar 5, 2017 22:41
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Odddzy posted:What are people's view of the paper cutter choke here? I'm finding myself using it more and more when I pass to side control but some people call it a move that leads to DQ. It's just a rad no-gi baseball bat choke, with all the pros and cons that no gi has. Make sure you do the cool slide through with the knee to strip the inside defending arm!
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Mar 5, 2017 22:54
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quidditch it and quit it posted:It's just a rad no-gi baseball bat choke, with all the pros and cons that no gi has. Make sure you do the cool slide through with the knee to strip the inside defending arm! You can paper cutter choke in gi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJgLSOlD3YQ
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Mar 5, 2017 23:00
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Yeah, well what happened was that the day I got my blue and got put up against purples they would do the usual hard rolls on the new belts. I passed a guy and I then did the usual paper cutter on him (we were doing gi but he was guarding his lapels so the paper cutter was free). I'm pretty sure I had him but he wouldn't tap due to peer pressure as other higher belts were watching. One guy then just blurted out that i'm doing a neck crank and it counts as DQ. Truly though, I think it's just because he had his buddies back. Edit : It does kinda feel like a crank in nogi if the guy turns towards you from bottom but my feeling is that hes saving himself from the choke by risking his neck. The way I see it is that it's not a defense as the guy basically accepts he could get a vertebral disk popped out or something. I guess my question is, is there a way to ensure the guy can't turn or should I not worry about it and if I'm sure I don't get it switch hips and try going for a backtake or something of that nature? Odddzy fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 00:31
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Odddzy posted:Truly though, I think it's just because he had his buddies back. It's probably this. As a recipient of this choke in nogi, it definitely isn't a crank unless you're doing something really, really weird. It's absolutely not a crack in gi.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:19
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In no gi it's no more of a crank than a japanese necktie (in other words, way way less of a crank), which is definitely legal. If we're talking gi, unless I'm getting it mixed up with something else, it's just a modified kata juji jime, which is a Kodokan judo technique, and if it's a Kodokan judo technique, it's probably legal in jits because those are the oldest and most fundamental.
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Mar 6, 2017 06:10
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Xguard86 posted:
My experience taking steroids is enough to prove to me that this is the case for pretty much any martial art. To go from rolling BJJ with a couple of heavy weights who could power out of a kimura or just flex their arm stiff to prevent it moving meaning I have lost an attack and probably a position because of being off balance concentrating on the offense of the Kimura, to suddenly them not being able to do that and me tapping them repeatedly because they don't recognise the actual techniques of defending a Kimura against me using technique instead of strength made one hell of a difference. One dick head I know talks about tapping purple and brown belts, hes 240lbs ish and hes rolling with 165'ers and leg locking them, who gives a poo poo, stop bragging about it, gosh it annoys me, he doesn't ever mention rolling with 300lbs heavy weight blue belts and getting loving flattened ever, or gassing against little old me in the boxing ring and asking to stop and have a chat about technique. Sorry, I didn't realise how much he had annoyed me, I need to get over it and not care.
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Mar 6, 2017 15:35
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willie_dee posted:My experience taking steroids is enough to prove to me that this is the case for pretty much any martial art. To go from rolling BJJ with a couple of heavy weights who could power out of a kimura or just flex their arm stiff to prevent it moving meaning I have lost an attack and probably a position because of being off balance concentrating on the offense of the Kimura, to suddenly them not being able to do that and me tapping them repeatedly because they don't recognise the actual techniques of defending a Kimura against me using technique instead of strength made one hell of a difference. Yeah
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Mar 6, 2017 16:16
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Watching Willie Dee grow up through the internet 
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Mar 6, 2017 18:04
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willie_dee posted:My experience taking steroids is enough to prove to me that this is the case for pretty much any martial art. To go from rolling BJJ with a couple of heavy weights who could power out of a kimura or just flex their arm stiff to prevent it moving meaning I have lost an attack and probably a position because of being off balance concentrating on the offense of the Kimura, to suddenly them not being able to do that and me tapping them repeatedly because they don't recognise the actual techniques of defending a Kimura against me using technique instead of strength made one hell of a difference. Man I tell ya, that guy sounds like a real jerk!
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Mar 6, 2017 18:07
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I managed to hurt my shoulder pretty badly tonight at BJJ - not even during the class proper, but during the warm up. We were doing forward roll break-falls (which I can normally do no problem, but I guess I just messed it up this time) and I somehow managed to put what felt like all my weight on my left shoulder through my left arm. I have pretty limited motion for that joint now and when I run my hand across my clavicle from one side to the other, the left hand end feels like it's protruding slightly, so I have to assume that I must have torn the ligaments (can't really make it to see a doctor at this time of night, unfortunately). Presuming this to be the case, does anyone have any advice about whether there's anything I can do to hasten its recovery? I don't really want to end up not being able to train for a long time. 
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Mar 6, 2017 22:49
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JaySB posted:You can paper cutter choke in gi This is one of my favorites, but I feel like I was shown to get way deeper on the "top" lapel. Hand on the floor deep. Am I confused?
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Mar 6, 2017 22:51
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Wheat Loaf posted:Presuming this to be the case, does anyone have any advice about whether there's anything I can do to hasten its recovery? I don't really want to end up not being able to train for a long time. PRP or stem cell injections seem to work wonders
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Mar 7, 2017 05:19
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willie_dee posted:My experience taking steroids is enough to prove to me that this is the case for pretty much any martial art. To go from rolling BJJ with a couple of heavy weights who could power out of a kimura or just flex their arm stiff to prevent it moving meaning I have lost an attack and probably a position because of being off balance concentrating on the offense of the Kimura, to suddenly them not being able to do that and me tapping them repeatedly because they don't recognise the actual techniques of defending a Kimura against me using technique instead of strength made one hell of a difference. It's such a huge no-no for a people to brag about tapping upper belts, especially from white/blues. Pretty sure if it happened in my gym that guy could expect to be tossed around for a few weeks.
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Mar 7, 2017 19:56
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Neon Belly posted:It's such a huge no-no for a people to brag about tapping upper belts, especially from white/blues. Pretty sure if it happened in my gym that guy could expect to be tossed around for a few weeks. I'm not sure he does so publicly, it's more in Facebook messages and stuff when you realise he's friends with someone else and you ask how he knows them and his first response is "Yea I've rolled with him, tapped him, heh" when he's a blue belt (and advertises it) and he's being asked about brown belts from the area. It was tempting to go back to said brown belt and show him the conversation, but that's just catty.
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Mar 7, 2017 23:52
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Does he not realize that higher belts will often let you get subs to make you feel good about yourself or to improve your technique?
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Mar 8, 2017 00:17
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JaySB posted:Does he not realize that higher belts will often let you get subs to make you feel good about yourself or to improve your technique? If he's the special kind of retard that goes at 100% all the time, possibly not!
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Mar 8, 2017 04:43
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcaOr1TBA1w Something that was gaslighting me today.. so this video is making the rounds on Reddit or something and some guys showed it to me, my reaction without even thinking about it was 'that's clearly fake' but then we get into an argument where they cant be convinced its fake and have a bunch of pretty specific reasons why its actually real (or at least a viable technique). These are med students so they at least have an above average understanding of anatomy/physiology... i searched online thinking there might be an article 'debunking' it but everywhere i looked everyone believes this is a real thing. Even people on Bullshido or MMA forums or whatever are like "yeah Dim mak isnt real but this is the only one that actually works, i was skeptical but it worked on me" etc etc so I tried to keep an open mind and looked at the justifications for it: Apparently the name for it is a "brachial stun" and it really is taught in Marines combatives, police, and a bunch of traditional martial arts. Basically you chop (or slap or backhand or poke) someone in the side of the neck Austin Powers style and they instantly pass out, or at least are "stunned" & cant defend themselves. Here are some of the mechanisms people by which its supposed to work: a) blocks the carotid artery, blood stops going to the brain and you pass out. This one isnt even valid on its face, there are a lot of redundancies in arterial blood going to the brain, anyone whos done grappling knows youll be totally fine if one carotid is blocked and the other isnt. Let alone whether a light chop would disrupt blood flow enough to cause unconsciousness b) "Stunning" the brachial plexus (most common explanation I saw). A plexus is a network of nerves. The brachial plexus basically runs from the vertebrae in your lower neck down to your armpit, and gives somatic afferent and efferent (sensory and motor) innervation to the shoulder, arm, and chest on that side of your body. Their notion is that you chop this bundle of nerves and it 'overloads' the neurons and makes you pass out. This seems implausible to me for a couple reasons: 1) it would be pretty hard to actually hit directly, its more buried in there than anatomy pictures make it seem (it runs under your clavicle towards the armpit); 2) im pretty certain theres no mechanism where hitting a somatic nerve makes you pass out. Most likely it would give you a tingling feeling (paresthesia) or temporary paralysis of that area depending where and how hard you impacted it. In fact injuries to the brachial plexus are pretty common, people get them all the time playing sports or just stretching their neck, and the symptoms are.. tingling and numbness in your arm. So its plausible this would make your arm feel weird for a second c) hitting the carotid sinus and causing a parasympathetic response that makes you faint (most plausible I guess?) The carotid sinus is an area near where the common carotid branches to the internal and external carotid. Its the most important site for baroreception -- your body regulates blood pressure by sensing the amount of 'stretch' in the blood vessels and signalling to lower heart rate to compensate. Their concept here basically is that smacking the mechanoreceptors here will trick your body into thinking your blood pressure is extremely high, making your Vagus nerve slow your heart rate drastically, making you faint. The mechanism is basically real, its called vasovagal syncope and its the most common reason people faint. You see a trigger like a blood or something and you faint because of increased parasympathetic tone. Some people also have carotid sinus hypersensitivity, and even light pressure on the carotid sinus can cause an exaggerated response -- older men sometimes faint while shaving because of the pressure of the razor on their carotid. You can try "carotid sinus massage" on yourself - press on the area around the carotid sinus, and it's thought to lower your HR/Blood pressure. The effect is really mild however on healthy people without hypersensitivity, which makes me skeptical that you could hit someone in the sinus once on one side (there's a sinus on both sides of the neck) and cause syncope. Even if it did work, the person wouldnt pass out instantly like the dude in the video, it would take a little bit of time here are my alternative explanations why it might actually work: a) power of suggestion (most of the demonstrations are done by a 'sensei' or drill instructor or whatever in front of a bunch of people) plus being out of shape cause an exaggerated vasovagal response to getting hit in the neck (which the person plays up a bit) so it more or less 'works' on a more real level than Dim mak etc, but wouldnt work in a real situation on a resisting person b) it sucks to get hit in the neck and most people have weak necks, your neck muscles have reflexes to contract violently if your head suddenly rotates/tilts laterally to protect your spine, the force of this could be concussive if done hard enough especially on an untrained person. I think this is basically understood by anyone who has been kicked in the neck in Muay thai or whatever. Youd have to do it pretty forcefully so this doesnt explain the ones where the guy really lightly chops at the neck and they instantly go down, and there is no magic mechanism here other than head trauma, you might as well just be punching them in the chin This is more for ones like this where the guy is told to totally relax and then is fuckin smacked in the neck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AMUWInhzgY&t=33s Anyway... i tried it on myself and it didnt work at all but i was told it wouldnt work because I 'tensed up' (like how you cant tickle yourself). I convinced one of the guys I was arguing with to try it on me and it didnt work, but he did it pretty lightly because he was scared he would murder me i guess, and also apparently it didnt work because Ive trained my neck muscles from grappling. I think its pretty crazy that this is accepted as a real technique by lots of otherwise skeptical martial arts people. Its actually taught in police foundations as a way to subdue a suspect, in searching for it I found a bunch of police reports saying they "brachial stunned" someone resisting arrest which is hilarious to me. it wasnt easy to find anyone else who thought it was fake, but lots of pseudoscience claiming its real. I did find this classic video where a guy tries it on a reporter and she just goes "Uhh yeah you just hit me in the head" (guest appearance by Stephan Bonnar) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk&t=177s Has anyone here had this done to them? Did you get hosed up? Sorry for the extremely long post about a stupid thing but i thought it was funny
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Mar 10, 2017 00:29
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tl;dr I was gaslit into thinking that the Austin Powers judo chop was real and spent a while thinking of physiological reasons why it probably isnt
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Mar 10, 2017 00:30
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manyak posted:tl;dr I was gaslit into thinking that the Austin Powers judo chop was real and spent a while thinking of physiological reasons why it probably isnt It's real and you're immune to it because of your sensei who is from japan, you wouldn't know him
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Mar 10, 2017 00:37
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manyak posted:"brachial stun" I get taught this at work as part of a yearly control tactics course. The course is mostly useless and impractical things, but one time in real life a guy tried to grab me and I attempted to do the brachial stun. I missed and clipped his ear but that was enough to stun him so this technique works just fine I guess.
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Mar 10, 2017 01:49
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that was a pretty great read, manyak
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Mar 10, 2017 03:03
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that's not what gaslighting means though
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Mar 10, 2017 03:14
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I can't see that Judo chop thing being real.
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Mar 10, 2017 03:16
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