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Flowers For Algeria posted:Le Monde is reporting that he is being indicted. Seems like Penelope will get it too. e: She's getting interviewed the 18th
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Mar 1, 2017 17:03
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GaussianCopula posted:It's kinda funny that two presidential candidates in France potentially face jail time but are still clearly ahead of Mr. "Income tax for robots" and the other leftists. Yes, the right wing is extremely good at class warfare and mobilizing their immoral electorate, what's new?
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Mar 1, 2017 17:33
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Yes, the right wing is extremely good at class warfare and mobilizing their immoral electorate, what's new? So which classes is the FN exactly mobilizing in their class warfare against the left?
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Mar 1, 2017 17:46
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Besides farmers are known for voting against their interests, as exemplified by how the FNSEA (created by vichystes and completely sold out to the agro industry and distributors that are pressuring farmers on price) is the union they vote for in the majority of chambers of agriculture. Then they complain that they are forced to sell their grain/produce/milk/meat below the cost of production and that it drives them to debts and bankruptcy and suicide, but they keep voting for their enemies because they are dumb. So nobody is surprised that they would cheer for a crook like Fillon.
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Mar 1, 2017 17:52
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GaussianCopula posted:So which classes is the FN exactly mobilizing in their class warfare against the left? This is not at all what "class warfare" means, lol.
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Mar 1, 2017 18:11
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Fillon doubling down  surely he is done
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Mar 1, 2017 20:55
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Fake jobs!
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Mar 1, 2017 21:26
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What happened in France yesterday? Not nice! >:[
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Mar 1, 2017 21:40
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Kurtofan posted:Fake jobs! Alternative jobs 
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Mar 1, 2017 22:08
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Turns out the PSD/CDS austerity bffs let 10B leave Portugal without any fiscalization to offshores.. Austere harder bitches, not feeling my boot on your throat yet?
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Mar 1, 2017 23:27
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Oh it was an IT problem. Not predictable at all.
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Mar 2, 2017 02:06
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Yes, the right wing is extremely good at class warfare and mobilizing their immoral electorate, what's new? If these guys vote for the right-wing party they are immoral, hmmm, kinda reminds me of the 'deplorables' strategy from H.R. Clinton, I ear it went really well! Also calling everyone that votes for FN or has anti-immigration views a fascist is a great way of both imediatelly muddying the ground for any nuanced and much needed analysis of these new right-wing populist movements (besides being stupid from an historical standpoint, fascism was a very specific phenomenon in time) and also again allienating a whole bunch of the immorals. It's funny because as someone posted before a whole bunch of Melenchon's voters would go for Le Pen in the second round: are those guys more on the side of the 'misguided' or of the 'deplorables'? Guess what, maybe on the side of Le Pen there are also a bunch of people who would support economic populism of the left variant if they didn't feel they would automatically be called immorals by having a very 'wrong opinion' (bracing for the snowballing about me being a literal nazi appologist) Also obviously violence is legitimate in self-defense, but I miss the paramilitary FN brown shirts street brawling and hunting refugees? I mean they probably might even be doing that but at least they'll probably be smart enough to not announce themselves as part of any specific party in contrast to antifa who love to carry their Larping commie gear everywhere.
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Mar 2, 2017 02:53
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FWIW most Finns aren't crazy fascist racists, this thread just seems to be void of any other kind of Finn. Not because Finns aren't assholes or xenophobes, mostly just 'cause Finns have been the target of racism enough times in living memory to know we're absolutely on the chopping block after the muslims are gone.
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Mar 2, 2017 04:30
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Fados posted:If these guys vote for the right-wing party they are immoral, hmmm, kinda reminds me of the 'deplorables' strategy from H.R. Clinton, I ear it went really well! You don't know poo poo about the FN do you? This party was created by literal honest-to-god fascists who were inspired by the MSI, a fascist party created by supporters of Mussolini, the Original Fascist. They even stole the MSI's logo in an effort to show everyone they were fascists. One of their founding members was an ex-Waffen SS officer for crying out loud. You could even go back before its inception in the early 70s and find many Vichyistes and Francistes involved in the creation of many groups and societies that led to the party we know today. Or stay in the present and notice that Jean-Marie Le Pen was convicted today of hate speech; according to him the gas chambers were a "detail" of WWII. Getting to know this is a click away, on Wikipedia. This is readily available to anyone willing to type two letters on google. gently caress their voters. x420ReDdIT_Br0nYx fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Mar 2, 2017 |
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Mar 2, 2017 05:05
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x420ReDdIT_Br0nYx posted:You don't know poo poo about the FN do you? This party was created by literal honest-to-god fascists who were inspired by the MSI, a fascist party created by supporters of Mussolini, the Original Fascist. They even stole the MSI's logo in an effort to show everyone they were fascists. One of their founding members was an ex-Waffen SS officer for crying out loud. I mean you could call Hitler a Nazi and an irredeemable monster, but then you'd lose the opportunity for dialogue with the people who think he wasn't such a bad guy.
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Mar 2, 2017 05:17
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endlessmonotony posted:I mean you could call Hitler a Nazi and an irredeemable monster, but then you'd lose the opportunity for dialogue with the people who think he wasn't such a bad guy. 
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Mar 2, 2017 05:22
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So do FN voters not get the "downtrodden by neoliberalism" benefit of the doubt that Trump voters seem to get from everyone?
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Mar 2, 2017 05:34
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Badger of Basra posted:So do FN voters not get the "downtrodden by neoliberalism" benefit of the doubt that Trump voters seem to get from everyone? Surprisingly they actually do get it from the media, but we have two reformist leftist parties that could get to the second round, and a party literally called the New Anticapitalist Party in the race. They're just racist.
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Mar 2, 2017 05:44
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Badger of Basra posted:So do FN voters not get the "downtrodden by neoliberalism" benefit of the doubt that Trump voters seem to get from everyone? That argument would carry more water if France was a two-party state. Unlike America where the only alternative to Trump was a neoliberal, there are plenty of viable anti-capitalist non-racists they could vote for.
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Mar 2, 2017 05:59
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x420ReDdIT_Br0nYx posted:Surprisingly they actually do get it from the media, but we have two reformist leftist parties that could get to the second round, and a party literally called the New Anticapitalist Party in the race. Didn't a lot of them vote for the PCF in the past though?
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Mar 2, 2017 06:05
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Yeah basically that. It's gotten to the point where idiots defend people who are very clearly fascists because they agree with them on some detail, because the idiots are Good People and therefore will never agree with a fascist because fascists are Bad People and also the idiots are massively racist. My go-to coping method is reductio ad absurdum but that mostly just either gets me called a liberal race traitor or applauded by racists, depending on how impossible it is to be any more absurd than they are. And that's why I try to avoid these threads, as a not-racist Finn. It's gloomy enough here as is.
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Mar 2, 2017 06:11
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x420ReDdIT_Br0nYx posted:You don't know poo poo about the FN do you? This party was created by literal honest-to-god fascists who were inspired by the MSI, a fascist party created by supporters of Mussolini, the Original Fascist. They even stole the MSI's logo in an effort to show everyone they were fascists. One of their founding members was an ex-Waffen SS officer for crying out loud. Yes except the party only gained the prominence it has today by taking a very clear turn of moderation with the kicing out the literal 'father' of the party. On the other hand we could just call every right wing populist a fascist, and pretend we're living perpetually in the plot of Casablanca or whatever. Fados fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Mar 2, 2017 |
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Mar 2, 2017 06:37
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Fados posted:Yes except the party only gained the prominence it has today by taking a very clear turn of moderation with the kicing out the literal 'father' of the party. Yes, except you're actually defending people who are very clearly fascists. That's the end game for all right-wing populism because of how the right wing is defined; policies good for the masses get classified under left wing even when it's conservatives who think it's a good idea. You can't both go populist and right wing without ending up right in Fascismville, Italy. Also Casablanca doesn't end with We'll Meet Again. You uncultured swine.
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Mar 2, 2017 06:58
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endlessmonotony posted:Yeah basically that. Finnish solution to difficult political issues is to be quiet and hope issues go away. When the issue is racists in social media that strategy is kiiiinda flawed.
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Mar 2, 2017 07:52
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Fados posted:If these guys vote for the right-wing party they are immoral, hmmm, kinda reminds me of the 'deplorables' strategy from H.R. Clinton, I ear it went really well! Well, there is the issue that those who are voting for Fillon are knowingly voting for a dude who misappropriated public money (and not small potatoes either), brazenly lied about it, and blamed the media and the judges for doing their job about it. I have zero qualms about calling people who would vote for such a person "lacking in morals". Plus, a significant size of Fillon's electorate is the bourgeoisie, and their reason for for voting for him is to protect their entrenched interests at the expense of the rest of the population. gently caress. Them. As for Le Pen's electorate, I find very little excuse for them. Her candidacy is a pretty obvious scam, her economic policies are anti-liberal on the surface, but she offers nothing to the working class but vindicative and racist policies that would target foreigners, for little gain for anyone. She also misappropriated French and EU public funds. I have no sympathy for the people who claim to want to vote for her because she's anti-system, because the only thing she wants is to become part of the system and eat at the same hayrack as the other politicians, and sleep under the gilt of the Republic's palaces.
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Mar 2, 2017 08:16
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Wikipedia posted:Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties. Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature, and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies. So yeah, hating foreigners doesn't make you fascist. You'd also have to have some specific ideas about the political system, economy, war. I'm pretty sure that most FN voters don't want all political parties in France to be abolished, people to be mobilized and sent to some war, and Le Pen getting dictatorial power. They are "only" racist. Some of them are even violently racist but that still doesn't make them fascist. You can make a case that you are using the term pejoratively to oppose them more efficiently... but it doesn't seem to be working very well.
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Mar 2, 2017 09:14
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Doctor Malaver posted:So yeah, hating foreigners doesn't make you fascist. You'd also have to have some specific ideas about the political system, economy, war. I'm pretty sure that most FN voters don't want all political parties in France to be abolished, people to be mobilized and sent to some war, and Le Pen getting dictatorial power. I'd say that FN comes pretty close to that though, and you don't even need all FN supporters to be fascists for them to have the critical mass to cause a massive problem. The other thing is that Fascist parties don't immediately start with the 'purity through blood and genocide everyone' position - it's dog whistles and making the country great, until power is consolidated and your discourse has become normalised, and then suddenly the extreme policies begin.
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Mar 2, 2017 09:26
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https://twitter.com/Valeurs/status/836952824676290560 "Francois Fillon: a great gathering of the right-wing public against the judges' coup d'etat in Paris this Sunday" Speaks for itself, I think (Valeurs Actuelles is a far right rag)
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Mar 2, 2017 09:34
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peuple de droite.. LOL
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Mar 2, 2017 09:37
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Yeah, my translation doesn't really do it justice, does it? Something like "right-wing nation" might be better.
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Mar 2, 2017 09:39
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so much for that indivisible republic
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Mar 2, 2017 09:40
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Kassad posted:Yeah, my translation doesn't really do it justice, does it? Something like "right-wing nation" might be better. "The right sort of people"
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Mar 2, 2017 09:47
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Seasonal clothing
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Mar 2, 2017 09:55
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Well, there is the issue that those who are voting for Fillon are knowingly voting for a dude who misappropriated public money (and not small potatoes either), brazenly lied about it, and blamed the media and the judges for doing their job about it. I have zero qualms about calling people who would vote for such a person "lacking in morals". You seems to believe people are like you, that they analyze the details of the current state of their country, then read the program of every candidate and thus make an informed decision about who would be the best choice. I don't know if it ever worked like that, but I can tell you that today it certainly does not. People will latch onto a candidate because some specific policy that particularely resonate with them like "less immigrants" or "legalize weed" and will disregard everything else. The process is driven by emotion, in which media has a more important part that we might think. There's a correlation between media presence and election results, is Macron everywhere in the media because he's polling high or is he polling high because he's everywhere in the media? Any small candidate getting as much attention as Macron would see a significant increase in their polling result, regardless of their program. And Le Pen has a insanely strong advantage over her opponents: she never governed before. She gets lots of flak, but she never held any real power, and therefore has little responsibility in the poo poo we got. They do make a pretty good thermometer for the ineptitude of the mainstream politicians though. If Le Pen gets elected, it will be a sign that normal politicans are just hopeless and that it's time to burn everything so we can rebuild from scratch.
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Mar 2, 2017 11:23
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Badger of Basra posted:So do FN voters not get the "downtrodden by neoliberalism" benefit of the doubt that Trump voters seem to get from everyone? *historic example: the night of the saint Bartholemew massacre, over a millennium of antisemitism pogroms, the Massacre of Italians at Aigues-Mortes, the Metro Charonne Massacre. Also a few revolutions including the Commune.
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Mar 2, 2017 11:24
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Kassad posted:Yeah, my translation doesn't really do it justice, does it? Something like "right-wing nation" might be better.
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Mar 2, 2017 11:29
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Fados posted:Yes except the party only gained the prominence it has today by taking a very clear turn of moderation with the kicing out the literal 'father' of the party. No, it has grown steadily over time and Jean-Marie got to the second round of presidential elections in 2002, so it was quite prominent before he got kicked out.
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Mar 2, 2017 11:51
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jBrereton posted:We typically go with "the silent majority".
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Mar 2, 2017 11:51
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Mostly unrelated: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-military-idUSKBN1690ND quote:Sweden's center-left government will decide on Thursday to reintroduce military conscription next year, amid lingering difficulties filling the ranks on a voluntary basis and a more uncertain security situation, public broadcaster SR reported.
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Mar 2, 2017 11:59
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https://twitter.com/ReutersWorld/status/837252813910593536 Rant against the EU in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...
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Mar 2, 2017 12:05
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