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Xealot posted:Yeah, but he couldn't speak. So, he essentially butt-answered his phone before the call dropped. [re: him answering his wife's call.] It's hard to overstate how trackable ships under thrust are. Every telescope in the system would have seen his little yacht peeling away under sustained heavy thrust for a week. That's not something ships were capable of at the time, so it probably wasn't long before people started looking for answers.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:34
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Xealot posted:What I mean is, "his ship worked for a bit and then exploded" is just as rational a conclusion as, "his magic engine worked perfectly...too well, because the g-load killed him." I guess there could've been some trackable nav data indicating how far he got. They know exactly where the ship is, even now... they just can't catch it.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:34
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So super physics nerds, is it possible to extrapolate how far his ship has gone now, 137 years later? I'm guessing he's probably passed several other star systems by now.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:38
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Not really because we don't know how long his fuel actually lasted. He still burned it, just at a much lower rate than he expected. He got like a full day or two of 4G thrust instead of a couple minutes but after that he's ballistic. E: According to a wiki 'His ship accelerated for 37 hours at an unknown rate above 7 g before his fuel supply ran out and ended up at about 5% the speed of light.' so I guess there are some real numbers mentioned somewhere. NmareBfly fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Mar 2, 2017 |
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Mar 2, 2017 22:45
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In reality stuff like nukes going missing could never happen. They'd be exactly where they'd be expected on their last known course, and if they tried to adjust that course there'd be a burn visible anywhere in the system. Earth, mars, the belt, they'd all have a huge array of telescopes and sensors that provided near 100% tracking of every ship or possibly dangerous object in the solar system.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:48
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Baronjutter posted:In reality stuff like nukes going missing could never happen. They'd be exactly where they'd be expected on their last known course, and if they tried to adjust that course there'd be a burn visible anywhere in the system. Earth, mars, the belt, they'd all have a huge array of telescopes and sensors that provided near 100% tracking of every ship or possibly dangerous object in the solar system. Remember though that the nukes are called first strike weapons that are designed to get past planetary defenses -- they're presumably stealthed up to some extent. Stealth ships were a big deal but smaller scale hard-to-track stuff probably exists.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:51
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MizPiz posted:
On that day, rear end became dust.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:54
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counterfeitsaint posted:So super physics nerds, is it possible to extrapolate how far his ship has gone now, 137 years later? I'm guessing he's probably passed several other star systems by now. Keeping things Newtonian, an acceleration of 10g would hit light speed in 38 days, after 137 years he'd be at over 1000C. Which is impossible in I think three different ways. Probably more.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:55
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Keeping things Newtonian, an acceleration of 10g would hit light speed in 38 days, after 137 years he'd be at over 1000C. He wasn't accelerating forever. In the show it shows his fuel at just under 90% at some point, I don't know if it says how long he had been going at that point, but if you could figure out how long he burned at what rate I'd think it would be possible. I know 0.05C was thrown around, for 137 years that would put him at nearly 7 light years away.
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Mar 2, 2017 23:07
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The final speed and 37 hour burn figures come from the short story "Drive", which was mentioned earlier. It's seven pages, free, and contains no spoilers for the rest of the series, so everyone feel free to read it!
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Mar 2, 2017 23:17
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Lord Hydronium posted:The final speed and 37 hour burn figures come from the short story "Drive", which was mentioned earlier. It's seven pages, free, and contains no spoilers for the rest of the series, so everyone feel free to read it! That would not be conducive to argument and confusion in the thread, so I'll abstain. 
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Mar 2, 2017 23:20
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NmareBfly posted:Remember though that the nukes are called first strike weapons that are designed to get past planetary defenses -- they're presumably stealthed up to some extent. Stealth ships were a big deal but smaller scale hard-to-track stuff probably exists. Yeah that's the biggest impossible fantasy in the series though, way way beyond their magic drives, there's no stealth in space.
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Mar 2, 2017 23:23
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah that's the biggest impossible fantasy in the series though, way way beyond their magic drives, there's no stealth in space. In the books the drives aren't stealthy, the ships just store heat internally while ballistic that they periodically have to vent. Rocinante can see spots a degree or so warmer than background when it knows where to look. They also absorb most light and radar. Number Ten Cocks fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Mar 2, 2017 |
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Mar 2, 2017 23:29
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It could work somewhat. Have it run radio silent, not have much of a radar signature and have some sort of shroud to hide the burn from someone looking head on.
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Mar 2, 2017 23:30
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Cojawfee posted:It could work somewhat. Have it run radio silent, not have much of a radar signature and have some sort of shroud to hide the burn from someone looking head on. You need to capture and not release heat through the skin of the ship. Good luck without magic.
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Mar 2, 2017 23:33
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Maybe it's just chilly on stealth ships and they all have to wear heavy coats to compensate 
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Mar 2, 2017 23:36
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Knowing now that there's more protomolecule and that the solar system is potentially swarming with Proto Men, I think Cas is right. Naomi needs to get the sample to Mars. Mars is far from being the Good Guys, but a lot of Martians did sacrifice their lives to ensure that she and the rest of the crew escaped the Donnager. Maybe as poo poo continues to go down she'll own up to faking the torpedo-into-the-sun and try to hand it off to Mars.
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Mar 2, 2017 23:36
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Baronjutter posted:In reality stuff like nukes going missing could never happen. They'd be exactly where they'd be expected on their last known course, and if they tried to adjust that course there'd be a burn visible anywhere in the system. Earth, mars, the belt, they'd all have a huge array of telescopes and sensors that provided near 100% tracking of every ship or possibly dangerous object in the solar system. The burn would be visible, but the precise parameters of that burn might not be, you'd get a cone of possible destinations depending on sensor capabilities. In a late book they describe a (not super reliable) tactic used by some ships trying to avoid pirates to spin and burn in a rapid, random corkscrew in the hope that observers won't be sure of the precise direction they were last burning. But that wouldn't work for 30 distributed points you need to converge on a net sized capture zone where the capture net has to burn to match acceleration. I just realized they never explained how the missiles were captured (or returned) in the book. There (as is consistent with book/show divergence) the initial numbers are much larger, something like 5,000+ missiles and the OPA takes control of all of them. Instead of Rocinante laser designating Eros, they had left a ship or ships behind on Eros from the demolition teams, and they have the missiles track their transponders when Eros itself goes radar invisible. Then when they decide to give Miller a shot to nuke the nerve center Fred Johnson buys him time by trying to hack the missiles. As expected, the UN puts the missiles on auto so they can't receive updates or be remotely shut down. Including by the UN. Then the OPA remotely shuts down the transponders on Eros and uses its fake transponder trick to create decoys throughout the solar system for the missiles to chase. They mention they have enough fuel to cross the solar system a couple of times, so I imagine they ran them back and forth between distant points so they couldn't build up some absurd amount of speed.
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Mar 2, 2017 23:48
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Just going to post this here before people get too deep into any "stealth in space" discussions.: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php the TLDR: Stealth in space doesn't work, and there are a few tricks you can do that could help with short term concealment or distraction tactics. However in a setting like the Expanse, the notion of hiding ship or missile trajectories/locations over long periods of times would be impossible if it was trying to be as scientifically accurate as it could be (something that the authors of the books have said was not their goal with the series.)
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Mar 3, 2017 00:19
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I like how the entire premise of Eros and JulieMaolicule is that the protomolecule was designed to reprogram single cell organisms and build from there. The PM freaked the gently caress out when it encountered multicellular life and incorporated Julie into its biological computer system. You can tell this when Julie says "Can't stop the work" when Miller wants her to stop. She's still influenced by the protomolecule's original programming to seed a planet with the Alien biotech colony thingy
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Mar 3, 2017 00:48
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ATP_Power posted:Just going to post this here before people get too deep into any "stealth in space" discussions.: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php He's forgetting that you can bombard the outer hull in handwavium particles.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:56
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http://www.tor.com/2017/02/27/science-vs-the-expanse-is-it-possible-to-colonize-our-solar-system/
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Mar 3, 2017 01:04
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Toast Museum posted:It's hard to overstate how trackable ships under thrust are. Every telescope in the system would have seen his little yacht peeling away under sustained heavy thrust for a week. That's not something ships were capable of at the time, so it probably wasn't long before people started looking for answers. This is pretty much the kind of answer I was looking for. Makes sense, that probably would be a fairly visible behavior for his ship. Do the books address things like high-g training? You could spin a space station up to simulate greater-than-1g gravity. And it seems like Earthers have a distinct advantage over everyone else used to ~0.3g. So, I imagine pilots would benefit from acclimating to higher-than-Earth g-loads as a baseline...if they can possibly survive such a thing. Like athletes who do high-altitude training. Though, I guess military drone ships or even AI pilots make more sense.
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Mar 3, 2017 01:25
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The biggest soft-science thing of this franchise is an utter lack of AI because they simply wanted the thing to be about human beings and thus Not Boring. There is a reason the introduction to the Cant is a subjugated human blasting his arm off as he's mining resources claimed for others. And laughing it off.
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Mar 3, 2017 01:30
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grilldos posted:The biggest soft-science thing of this franchise is an utter lack of AI because they simply wanted the thing to be about human beings and thus Not Boring. If you mean conscious AI, no. But the automated threat detection and analysis in the Marine combat suits demonstrated in the most recent episode is pretty damned advanced. It definitely made me wonder why they need a human in there to aim the weapon and tell the suit where to go. That recon drone without a weapon just added to the question of how much this is really necessary. The book features lots of mech suits being worn EVA, you'd think remote piloting would be pretty feasible through a VR interface.
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Mar 3, 2017 01:33
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It's not sci-fi AI unless it's sentient.
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Mar 3, 2017 01:35
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My understanding of why the UN and MCRN ships fired on each other in orbit was because everyone's radios were jammed by an unknown mechanism and they each thought it was precipitating a surprise attack from the other side, and thus they all began target locking and firing as quickly as they could. Also, I assumed the Captain guy was shot by point defense cannon fire from a UN ship, not an assassin.
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Mar 3, 2017 01:38
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WillyTheNewGuy posted:Also, I assumed the Captain guy was shot by point defense cannon fire from a UN ship, not an assassin. That's what was happening to all of the Martians and the exploding consoles I had assumed. I guess that they didn't want to pay for the glowing trails in the air to make it clear what was happening.
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Mar 3, 2017 01:55
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This is a lot of odd discussion about the guy in the background when it's very clear he took a shot and went down as well, it's just quick.
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Mar 3, 2017 02:07
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Here is frame‐by frame of the supposed assassin. He’s shot by a big glowing bullet and crumples to the ground.
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Mar 3, 2017 02:08
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WillyTheNewGuy posted:My understanding of why the UN and MCRN ships fired on each other in orbit was because everyone's radios were jammed by an unknown mechanism and they each thought it was precipitating a surprise attack from the other side, and thus they all began target locking and firing as quickly as they could. Only ground communications were jammed.
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Mar 3, 2017 02:08
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Platystemon posted:https://giant.gfycat.com/PotablePartialAmazonparrot.mp4 If you look, the dude behind the captain gets schwacked as well. E:fb  that's what I get not refreshing
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Mar 3, 2017 02:14
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HERAK posted:That's what was happening to all of the Martians and the exploding consoles I had assumed. I guess that they didn't want to pay for the glowing trails in the air to make it clear what was happening. Wasn't the Roci operating in vacuum at the time? They were suited and sealed up during that scene, IIRC. It would make sense to evacuate the air so you don't have explosive decompression when the railgun projectiles swiss cheese your walls (Although that raises the question of why that didn't happen in the MRC ship in this last episode) What I'm getting at is I thought the glowy bullet trails were because the metal spalling could only cool off by radiation without an atmo to dump all that heat into.
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Mar 3, 2017 02:45
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flosofl posted:(Although that raises the question of why that didn't happen in the MRC ship in this last episode) poo poo happened too fast for them to figure out who was shooting who or why, so I guess they didn't have time for everyone on the ship to suit up. I assume they drill for that but it'll still take like a minute and if you're already throwing rounds around it might be a little late. E: Oh misread, I thought you were saying they should have evacuated air already but maybe you're wondering why they weren't seeing effect from all the air leaking out. Well, they were all dead in a minute or so anyway. NmareBfly fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Mar 3, 2017 |
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Mar 3, 2017 02:47
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The Roci crew also had time to prep for that fight. The Martians were taken by surprise and rushed into battle. Also  at the typical TVIV confusion over the captain's death. Cap was hit by debris/stray UN round, not assassinated.
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Mar 3, 2017 02:47
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NmareBfly posted:poo poo happened too fast for them to figure out who was shooting who or why, so I guess they didn't have time for everyone on the ship to suit up. I assume they drill for that but it'll still take like a minute and if you're already throwing rounds around it might be a little late. I'm sorry. I meant why there was no decompression. I sorta understand why they weren't suited, but you would think that would be SOP when tensions are high and you're effectively patrolling your side of a DMZ as a deterrent.
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Mar 3, 2017 02:50
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I didn't think he was assassinated, just that the setup looked like a bad murder on a CBS show. Shot out of nowhere, camera pans to show shadowy crew member run away from where the bullet originated. It was dumb.
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Mar 3, 2017 02:50
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Yeah, I didn't think he was assassinated, just that the shot came from behind him from the way he slumped.
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Mar 3, 2017 02:52
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Number Ten Cocks posted:I didn't think he was assassinated, just that the setup looked like a bad murder on a CBS show. Shot out of nowhere, camera pans to show shadowy crew member run away from where the bullet originated. It was dumb. Yeah, I agree it was poorly framed. I'm assuming good faith on the director attempting to convey the random suddenness of everything that's happening. But all it did was make it more confusing than it needed to be.
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Mar 3, 2017 02:53
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Number Ten Cocks posted:I just realized they never explained how the missiles were captured (or returned) in the book. There (as is consistent with book/show divergence) the initial numbers are much larger, something like 5,000+ missiles and the OPA takes control of all of them. If I recall correctly, in the books the OPA never literally takes possession of the nukes. They just keep changing their target to keep them flying around indefinitely. Xealot posted:Do the books address things like high-g training? You could spin a space station up to simulate greater-than-1g gravity. And it seems like Earthers have a distinct advantage over everyone else used to ~0.3g. So, I imagine pilots would benefit from acclimating to higher-than-Earth g-loads as a baseline...if they can possibly survive such a thing. Like athletes who do high-altitude training. Martian marines train at Earth gravity, but I don't recall any mention of Earthers training at higher gravity. Honestly, I'm not sure it's worth it. Martians train at Earth gravity so they're used to it in case they're ever deployed to Earth. Everywhere else humans live has lower gravity, so that aspect isn't a concern for Earthers, and I'm not sure you could consistently train in gravity high enough to help with high-g burns without serious risk of stroking out during the training.
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Mar 3, 2017 03:06
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