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Kjoery posted:you know, its possible to be skeptical about all of the connections between trumps campaign + admin and russia while simultaneously hating the dnc. these are not mutually exclusive things thanks for your input on a conversation you're clearly not following.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:16
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new phone who dis posted:Eventually once everyone gets confirmed and situated, the ability to do this dries up. There's a lot of political capital you have to expend fighting for 4 or even 2 years to get this sort of thing done, and picking your battles is an important aspect of that. Creating this Russian mythology instead of dealing with their internal inconsistencies is only setting the stage for the Dems to fail again. Shutting down the largest and most politically charged group of progressives in generations while complaining about Russia is going to blow up spectacularly later down the line. You can't plan to drag the Russia thing out for 2 years to the midterms and hope it gets you a win. That's just insane. Especially if Trump enacts things that actually stimulate the economy and create more prosperity, even if only temporarily. I agree with the idea that the Russia thing will not really stop trump but he's really not going to be stopped by anything, so the goal is to try to keep a cloud of dishonesty around his administration. The Russia thing is part of that(though it's weird that it's most of it, I agree with that). I mean, there's plenty of things to attack Sessions on, as well as many of the other Trump cabinet members. But, I don't think the goal is to actually win any of the battles in between, but to show you're actually fighting. You're not going to win anything without a congressional majority, so there's nothing to save for. The election is the target and cooperating with the right offers nothing for that. I think the Russia thing is good in intimation and thought the piss video thing was great, but as it goes on the Russia thing gets more and more stale. Move on to Betsy DeVos and Erik Prince or something.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:20
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really queer Christmas posted:So silly question I know, but have you talked to some of the people you're strawmanning here? Because most people don't go in to voting booths with the explicit intention to make the world a worse place. Some do and it's regrettable and others vote to better themselves maybe only in the short term. I lived in Wisconsin and in an incredibly pro walker but still union area. Except they can't be convinced because they have chosen to believe Facebook posts and Breitbart so I don't think there is much left to do other than to constantly remind them that all those things are their fault.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:22
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Kjoery posted:you know, its possible to be skeptical about all of the connections between trumps campaign + admin and russia while simultaneously hating the dnc. these are not mutually exclusive things If there was something substantial tying Trump's campaign to Russia other than bureaucrats talking to each other and a shitload of Democrat sour grapes maybe I could get skeptical. I think the correct skeptical approach is to assume a poisoned political well until you see something compelling instead of assuming guilt until all avenues have been explored. Even after Flynn resigned it quietly came out that his discussions with the Russians were extremely tame, similar to this whole Sessions thing. How many mountains are we going to make out of molehills because Hillary's people are super pissed at Wikileaks? How mad can we really get at Russia if they did hack Podesta if all they revealed was the truth? Does anyone really trust the entire Trump apparatus to have been able to effectively hide this fact until now after we've seen their bumbling? It's getting to the point of "Bush did 9/11" for me - there's no way this group of people was competent enough to orchestrate what they're accused of without getting caught red-handed.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:23
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new phone who dis posted:Eventually once everyone gets confirmed and situated, the ability to do this dries up. There's a lot of political capital you have to expend fighting for 4 or even 2 years to get this sort of thing done, and picking your battles is an important aspect of that. Creating this Russian mythology instead of dealing with their internal inconsistencies is only setting the stage for the Dems to fail again. Shutting down the largest and most politically charged group of progressives in generations while complaining about Russia is going to blow up spectacularly later down the line. You can't plan to drag the Russia thing out for 2 years to the midterms and hope it gets you a win. That's just insane. Especially if Trump enacts things that actually stimulate the economy and create more prosperity, even if only temporarily. Yeah but people aren't really situated yet is the thing, and won't really be for a long while because of the disorganization and chaos within the Trump administration. Purely from a political perspective this is absolutely the time to see if you can nail a couple of terrible/corrupt cabinet level officials before they get too entrenched (especially one as genuinely objectionable as Sessions), and getting an independent investigation with broad remit going is even better. That can potentially get you things that aren't purely campaign season nonsense (also why taking the House is so important in 2018- getting control of investigatory committees with subpoena powers gives you some juice, especially given how the Trump administration is likely to continue to operate). Resolving the Democratic party's internal conflicts isn't something that's going to happen overnight, and there's no reason to not fight back and take advantage where you can- doing otherwise is basically a "but would it solve racism?" tier distraction from the political work at hand. Even from a mythology perspective it's all about framing- i.e. there's the super weak "Russians stole the election!" narrative you worry about, but you can also use it to set up a narrative of untrustworthiness, dishonesty, secrecy, corruption, etc. on the part of the Republicans that can be much more effectively leveraged by Democrats in a midterm as part of a winning message. LGD fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Mar 3, 2017 |
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Mar 3, 2017 00:23
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new phone who dis posted:Eventually once everyone gets confirmed and situated, the ability to do this dries up. There's a lot of political capital you have to expend fighting for 4 or even 2 years to get this sort of thing done, and picking your battles is an important aspect of that. Creating this Russian mythology instead of dealing with their internal inconsistencies is only setting the stage for the Dems to fail again. Shutting down the largest and most politically charged group of progressives in generations while complaining about Russia is going to blow up spectacularly later down the line. You can't plan to drag the Russia thing out for 2 years to the midterms and hope it gets you a win. That's just insane. Especially if Trump enacts things that actually stimulate the economy and create more prosperity, even if only temporarily. BUT HER EMAILS worked for almost a decade.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:26
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new phone who dis posted:If there was something substantial tying Trump's campaign to Russia other than bureaucrats talking to each other and a shitload of Democrat sour grapes maybe I could get skeptical. I think the correct skeptical approach is to assume a poisoned political well until you see something compelling instead of assuming guilt until all avenues have been explored. Even after Flynn resigned it quietly came out that his discussions with the Russians were extremely tame, similar to this whole Sessions thing. How many mountains are we going to make out of molehills because Hillary's people are super pissed at Wikileaks? How mad can we really get at Russia if they did hack Podesta if all they revealed was the truth? Does anyone really trust the entire Trump apparatus to have been able to effectively hide this fact until now after we've seen their bumbling? It's getting to the point of "Bush did 9/11" for me - there's no way this group of people was competent enough to orchestrate what they're accused of without getting caught red-handed.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:28
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quote:
lol that you think people will just let go of and move on from the Presidents ties to Russian intelligence just lol This poo poo is still getting warmed up.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:29
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sincx posted:BUT HER EMAILS worked for almost a decade. What you're forgetting is that Hillary was actually guilty of everything they accused her of in that investigation, they just declined to prosecute. She lied under oath, mishandled classified documents, the whole thing. Loretta Lynch bailed her out but there''s no question from anyone who isn't a oants on head retard at this point that she was guilty of what she was accused of. The there's the complete irony of being criticized about your email security by your opponents prior to the election just to go into full meltdown post-election because someone hacked your emails and made you look bad. If you want to make the argument that it wasn't a big deal, fine. Just know that complaining about being hacked while doing so makes you kind of a hypocrite.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:29
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FWIW while I hold to my earlier points on the meta-politics behind the Russia stuff overall, that Sessions answer is pretty poo poo, my understanding is he never cleared these details up, and the Democrats are fully fair to go after him on that point.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:31
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new phone who dis posted:What you're forgetting is that Hillary was actually guilty of everything they accused her of in that investigation, they just declined to prosecute. She lied under oath, mishandled classified documents, the whole thing. Loretta Lynch bailed her out but there''s no question from anyone who isn't a oants on head retard at this point that she was guilty of what she was accused of. The there's the complete irony of being criticized about your email security by your opponents prior to the election just to go into full meltdown post-election because someone hacked your emails and made you look bad. If you want to make the argument that it wasn't a big deal, fine. Just know that complaining about being hacked while doing so makes you kind of a hypocrite. My point is that Republicans didn't give a drat about political capital for 8 years, why should the Dems? And Trump very well could be far more guilty--so keep pushing for the investigation, like the Republicans did against the Dems, instead of falling back. Use the GOP's approach--it worked.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:32
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Mordor She Wrote posted:I lived in Wisconsin and in an incredibly pro walker but still union area. Yeah I can understand that frustration, but if you attack or blame others they just get defensive and double down on what they believe rather than change anything. Like if I attack you right now you're not going to change your mind on anything, just get mad and attack me back. I don't know, I'm just a kill em with kindness type of person, and when that fails just not deal with that person anymore 
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Mar 3, 2017 00:32
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Kjoery posted:i mean if the entire US intelligence community agreeing, the president lying during his campaigning, a sudden warming on both sides in terms of dialogue, the sudden shift of russia's internal anti-US propaganda to pro-trump propaganda, and his cabinet members lying combine to something along the lines of "bush did 9/11" to you then there's not much really more to say This is Kenya Muslim levels of conspiracy bullshit. Trump and Putin may have both worked toward similar goals for different reasons, but the idea they were doing it together in some sort of conspiracy is Alex Jones-level retardation. I don't know how many times the same organizations leaking this poo poo have to claim that there's absolutely no link between the two before people realize it. The Dems are very picky which leaks and info they run with and which statements they ignore and people realize it.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:32
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new phone who dis posted:This is Kenya Muslim levels of conspiracy bullshit. Trump and Putin may have both worked toward similar goals for different reasons, but the idea they were doing it together in some sort of conspiracy is Alex Jones-level retardation. I don't know how many times the same organizations leaking this poo poo have to claim that there's absolutely no link between the two before people realize it. The Dems are very picky which leaks and info they run with and which statements they ignore and people realize it. I'm not the Jones, I'm not the Jones. You're the Jones. Saying that a Sherrif Joe-sponsored conspiracy is the same as a 17-agency intelligence report. Wow. You're hopeless.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:33
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sincx posted:My point is that Republicans didn't give a drat about political capital for 8 years, why should the Dems? And Trump very well could be far more guilty--so keep pushing for the investigation, like the Republicans did against the Dems, instead of falling back. Use the GOP's approach--it worked. There is zero evidence implicating anyone on the Trump team of anything except Clintonian levels of lying to investigators and committees simply because they are politicians and it's what they do as a first response.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:34
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new phone who dis posted:There is zero evidence implicating anyone on the Trump team of anything except Clintonian levels of lying to investigators and committees simply because they are politicians and it's what they do as a first response. There's a lot of smoke. The Dems need to push instead of falling back. Are you afraid of what they'll find?
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Mar 3, 2017 00:35
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By the way, concern trolling doesn't work when you've exposed yourself as having swallowed the Breitbart propaganda line, hook, and sinker.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:37
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sincx posted:I'm not the Jones, I'm not the Jones. You're the Jones. have you seen their intelligence reports or are you just trusting the people who have been shown to be lying to you
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Mar 3, 2017 00:37
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sincx posted:By the way, concern trolling doesn't work when you've exposed yourself as having swallowed the Breitbart propaganda line, hook, and sinker. 
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Mar 3, 2017 00:38
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sincx posted:There's a lot of smoke. The Dems need to push instead of falling back. The Dems should realize that if they continue to push and end up with a big, wet fart, people are going to punish them for it. This isn't a win/win scenario for them. If the investigation they managed to knock Sessions off of comes back and exonerates Trump, they're going to pay for it politically. People supporting this witch hunt should realize the price they may have to pay if it doesn't pay off. They're making a heavy bet on Trump being an evil genius when most evidence points to ineptitude.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:38
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sincx posted:There's a lot of smoke. The Dems need to push instead of falling back. I'm afraid of having to read another of your posts.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:38
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new phone who dis posted:The Dems should realize that if they continue to push and end up with a big, wet fart, people are going to punish them for it. This isn't a win/win scenario for them. If the investigation they managed to knock Sessions off of comes back and exonerates Trump, they're going to pay for it politically. People supporting this witch hunt should realize the price they may have to pay if it doesn't pay off. They're making a heavy bet on Trump being an evil genius when most evidence points to ineptitude. Stop concern trolling like you actually care about Dems. No one's buying it.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:40
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I don't know if you guys are old enough to remember, but Clinton walked because of voter apathy and exhaustion on an issue they had him dead to rights on. People were sick of hearing about him getting his dick sucked even though he lied under oath and gave a speech directly to the American people for the express purpose of lying to their face as well. There isn't going to be an unlimited amount of goodwill and patience if the Russia thing doesn't pan out. Ultimately, people will want the government to govern and do their jobs.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:42
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YOUR BRIETBART 4CHAN FROGMAN CONCERN TROLL CANT FOOL ME
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Mar 3, 2017 00:42
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sincx posted:Stop concern trolling like you actually care about Dems. No one's buying it. LOL I vote almost exclusively D except in the presidential election because I live in CA and I can afford to vote 3rd party.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:43
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new phone who dis posted:I don't know if you guys are old enough to remember, but Clinton walked because of voter apathy and exhaustion on an issue they had him dead to rights on. People were sick of hearing about him getting his dick sucked even though he lied under oath and gave a speech directly to the American people for the express purpose of lying to their face as well. There isn't going to be an unlimited amount of goodwill and patience if the Russia thing doesn't pan out. Ultimately, people will want the government to govern and do their jobs. So sick and tired of the Republicans going after Clinton that they voted in Al Gore for another 8 years of Democratic rule. Oh wait...
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Mar 3, 2017 00:43
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new phone who dis posted:The Dems should realize that if they continue to push and end up with a big, wet fart, people are going to punish them for it. This isn't a win/win scenario for them. If the investigation they managed to knock Sessions off of comes back and exonerates Trump, they're going to pay for it politically. People supporting this witch hunt should realize the price they may have to pay if it doesn't pay off. They're making a heavy bet on Trump being an evil genius when most evidence points to ineptitude. Pretty sure the history of the Republican investigations demonstrate this isn't the case. They hardly suffered real consequences for endless Benghazi investigations, and that eventually gave them something useful with the Clinton's email server. Trump being wildly incompetent instead of a malicious genius in service to the Russians probably just means the odds of something juicy turning up during a fishing expedition are increased, and any success almost certainly retroactively justifies the entire enterprise (and lack of success, which would be a genuine shock, is likely to be electorally irrelevant because "tired witch hunt didn't find anything" doesn't actually matter to people).
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Mar 3, 2017 00:44
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LGD posted:Pretty sure the history of the Republican investigations demonstrate this isn't the case. They hardly suffered real consequences for endless Benghazi investigations, and that eventually gave them something useful with the Clinton's email server. Trump being wildly incompetent instead of a malicious genius in service to the Russians probably just means the odds of something juicy turning up during a fishing expedition are increased, and any success retroactively justifies the entire enterprise. Obama 100% dunked on his opponents with the birth certificate thing, and if Trump ends up being cleared he's going to do the same thing but worse to the media.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:45
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LGD posted:Pretty sure the history of the Republican investigations demonstrate this isn't the case. They hardly suffered real consequences for endless Benghazi investigations, and that eventually gave them something useful with the Clinton's email server. Trump being wildly incompetent instead of a malicious genius in service to the Russians probably just means the odds of something juicy turning up during a fishing expedition are increased, and any success retroactively justifies the entire enterprise. Yep. And given the amount of smoke and the 17-agency report, there's almost certainly something here. Which is why the MAGAs are so afraid of this investigation getting legs.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:45
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LGD posted:Pretty sure the history of the Republican investigations demonstrate this isn't the case. They hardly suffered real consequences for endless Benghazi investigations, and that eventually gave them something useful with the Clinton's email server. Trump being wildly incompetent instead of a malicious genius in service to the Russians probably just means the odds of something juicy turning up during a fishing expedition are increased, and any success almost certainly retroactively justifies the entire enterprise (and lack of success, which would be a genuine shock, is likely to be electorally irrelevant because "tired witch hunt didn't find anything" doesn't actually matter to people). If there was anything meaty on Trump the intel people would have already found it considering the amount of wire-tapping and surveillance they've got. It's how they got Flynn, even though the actual content of the communications ended up being fairly meaningless. There's a reason they keep beating the "have not found a single link between Russia and Trump" drum in official releases even though nobody is listening.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:48
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new phone who dis posted:Obama 100% dunked on his opponents with the birth certificate thing, and if Trump ends up being cleared he's going to do the same thing but worse to the media. Dunked so hard that Donald Trump, a man who fully embraced birtherism and kept up with it long after it became déclassé, won the presidency over Obama's appointed successor. Like there are ways you can spin it to your advantage, but it's pretty clear that failed investigations don't really matter to the public much- certainly not anywhere near as much as a scandal that plays nicely into a popular narrative about a politician or party.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:50
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sincx posted:Yep. And given the amount of smoke and the 17-agency report, there's almost certainly something here. Which is why the MAGAs are so afraid of this investigation getting legs. The 17-agency report primarily revolves around the IC wanting people to admit Russia helped Wikileaks embarrass Clinton. There's no evidence of any actual election fraud or links to Trump's people, just a hopping mad group of organizations who usually run these type of ops instead of watching them get run getting clowned.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:50
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LGD posted:Dunked so hard that Donald Trump, a man who fully embraced birtherism and kept up with it long after it became déclassé, won the presidency over Obama's appointed successor. Like there are ways you can spin it to your advantage, but it's pretty clear that failed investigations don't really matter to the public much- certainly not anywhere near as much as a scandal that plays nicely into a popular narrative about a politician or party. Yeah, I think this is pretty much how it goes. If anything sticks, it'll work.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:52
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LGD posted:Dunked so hard that Donald Trump, a man who fully embraced birtherism and kept up with it long after it became déclassé, won the presidency over Obama's appointed successor. Like there are ways you can spin it to your advantage, but it's pretty clear that failed investigations don't really matter to the public much- certainly not anywhere near as much as a scandal that plays nicely into a popular narrative about a politician or party. Trump never, EVER would have defeated an opponent of Obama's caliber. Let's not let Hillary's shittiness be ignored in this situation. Trump didn't beat Obama, and Obama marginalized him completely during his presidency particularly because of Trump's failure to get a scandal to stick.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:52
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sincx posted:By the way, concern trolling doesn't work when you've exposed yourself as having swallowed the Breitbart propaganda line, hook, and sinker. Hey actual liberals. Don't be like this person. Thanks.
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Mar 3, 2017 00:52
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Wait so democrats and the left in general suddenly care about perjury now? Where was this sentiment when Hillary was lying her rear end off about the emails during those investigations?
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Mar 3, 2017 01:01
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Harrower posted:Wait so democrats and the left in general suddenly care about perjury now? Where was this sentiment when Hillary was lying her rear end off about the emails during those investigations? No one is going to care enough about this either. He isn't going to jail. Once you get to a certain level your hand gets smacked, and that's all.
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Mar 3, 2017 01:10
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Philthy posted:No one is going to care enough about this either. He isn't going to jail. Once you get to a certain level your hand gets smacked, and that's all. Just don't get yer dick sucked in office lmao
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Mar 3, 2017 01:13
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Harrower posted:Wait so democrats and the left in general suddenly care about perjury now? Where was this sentiment when Hillary was lying her rear end off about the emails during those investigations? " Hillary lied about thing, given me a blank moral cheque to vote for a guy who never managed to say a truthful or comprehensible sentence"
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Mar 3, 2017 01:14
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Mordor She Wrote posted:" Hillary lied about thing, given me a blank moral cheque to vote for a guy who never managed to say a truthful or comprehensible sentence" I think any argument involving "b-b-but this man/woman is a liar!" is dumb because all politicians are liars to some degree.
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Mar 3, 2017 01:17
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