And the thing is, if you can find and check out JMS' original-original idea, which the series was seemingly on track for as far as the end of Season 1, what we got seems to be so much better than what was intended. Like, Babylon Prime? Come on...
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# ? Feb 28, 2017 03:39 |
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# ? May 16, 2024 17:55 |
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Eh, redrafting improves all writing, the original concepts might have been crap but it's a little hard to gauge what a produced show based on that would have been.
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# ? Feb 28, 2017 03:53 |
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But redraftings forced by conflict as opposed to enabled by extension makes a better product. That's what I love about B5. It thrives in adversity, that is what makes it strong. quote:
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# ? Feb 28, 2017 05:33 |
Grand Fromage posted:Was it ever explicit in the novels or anything what happened to Babylons 1-3 or are we supposed to assume the Shadows blew all of them up like they were going to do to Babylon 4? The first one sank into the swamp.
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# ? Feb 28, 2017 05:39 |
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Shbobdb posted:But redraftings forced by conflict as opposed to enabled by extension makes a better product. That's what I love about B5. It thrives in adversity, that is what makes it strong. Oh yeah, I think the result sounds better than the original concept stuff, I just think going straight from 'the original concept sounds bad' straight to 'if they'd used that as a basis it would be bad' is just not something very knowable.
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# ? Feb 28, 2017 05:51 |
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hangedman1984 posted:Yeah, I've always been pretty impressed at how well they were able to deal with unplanned stuff and usually managing to make them seem like they were the plan the entire time.. I'd say there were two exceptions to this: first was losing Ivanova because, well, you can't replace Ivanova. Tracy Scoggins did fine work but there simply was no comparison. Second was Michael O'Hare's departure - which obviously had to happen but there was simply so much of the initial story that wrapped around Sinclair and I kind of wish I could have seen that show. The human-minbari connection was eventually revealed anyway and while they tried to make it a powerful moment I always felt that it fell flat. Sinclair was the lynchpin of all of that and trying to transfer much of that storyline over to Delenn and the rest to Sheridan was an admirable bit of making lemonade at best.
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# ? Feb 28, 2017 17:27 |
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Delenn (and Lennier) were much better than Sinclair's ex-girlfriend (ex-wife?) that was going to play the role that eventually went to Boxleitner's IRL wife. And I can't see Sinclair giving a speech anywhere near as good as "Get the hell out of our galaxy."
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# ? Feb 28, 2017 17:59 |
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FairGame posted:And I can't see Sinclair giving a speech anywhere near as good as "Get the hell out of our galaxy." Well that's the thing, Sinclair was all zen and disarming calm whereas Sheridan was charisma and fire. Unfortunately Sinclair is only in the freshman season where the writing is still finding its legs and there are fewer moments to tell people to get the hell out of the nearest stellar cluster. I would be equally happy with a Babylon 5 where Sheridan is the commander from day one and there is a more refined version of the Earth conspiracy story arc (anyone remember Bureau 13? The convoluted infighting between Clark & Bester?)
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# ? Feb 28, 2017 18:12 |
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We watched "The Illusion of Truth" in season 4 last night and my girls HATED it, as they ought. I got to talk with them about not just unreflectively trusting what you see on the news or the internet.
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# ? Feb 28, 2017 18:39 |
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kaynorr posted:I would be equally happy with a Babylon 5 where Sheridan is the commander from day one and there is a more refined version of the Earth conspiracy story arc (anyone remember Bureau 13? The convoluted infighting between Clark & Bester?) I totally forgot about Bureau 13. Was there any information about what that was supposed to be? Or did they retcon it to be as stupid as Quantum being a part of Spectre in Spectre?
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# ? Feb 28, 2017 21:24 |
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mojo1701a posted:I totally forgot about Bureau 13. Was there any information about what that was supposed to be? Or did they retcon it to be as stupid as Quantum being a part of Spectre in Spectre? The Bester books have an essentially identical department of a different name, so it's fair to assume they're the same thing. Or that the Psi Corps is just so full of conspiracies that they can't move without finding five more, which is also possible. In general the psi corps has been involved in so much shady poo poo that any of it could be explained as being part of B13
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# ? Feb 28, 2017 22:47 |
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The Bester books have an essentially identical department of a different name, so it's fair to assume they're the same thing. Or that the Psi Corps is just so full of conspiracies that they can't move without finding five more, which is also possible. There was a really murky ASCII diagram that explained it back in the day - what I remember is that there were multiple conspiracies all running around trying to undermine President Santiago from various angles. I think B13 was one of the Clark-backing cells, the same overall set of guys who sent Knight One and Knight Two and who were running Laurel Takashima (speaking of people who don't compare favorably to Ivanova). The name itself had to go IIRC, because of a trademark held by the Bureau 13 roleplaying game. And by the time it became relevant again all those conspiracy cells had become Nightwatch or just the official Earth Alliance, and everything else was a Psi Corps subproject. Like I said, there's a lot to dig into here but the show started off on the other foot with the human-minbari mystery instead of the What's Wrong With Earthgov mystery.
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# ? Feb 28, 2017 23:29 |
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FInished Season 2. Hahaha, "peace in our times" and ministry of peace this is so over the top. You'd never see stuff like that in the real world! ...oh.
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# ? Mar 2, 2017 21:18 |
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MonsieurChoc posted:FInished Season 2. Hahaha, "peace in our times" and ministry of peace this is so over the top. You'd never see stuff like that in the real world! Are you posting this in 1938
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# ? Mar 2, 2017 23:38 |
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Are you posting this in 1938 Yeah, I'm not saying this is new. If anything, the US has been living in a propaganda bubble while conducting a global campaign of terror and making alliances with tyrants for a century or so. Oh, it's happened before, and it'll happen again.
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# ? Mar 3, 2017 04:11 |
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, I'm not saying this is new. If anything, the US has been living in a propaganda bubble while conducting a global campaign of terror and making alliances with tyrants for a century or so. Your disloyal opinons have been noted and Nightwatch has been informed. Expect a visit from the Ministry of Peace soon.
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# ? Mar 3, 2017 12:04 |
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I remember Nightwatch seeming really ham-handed at the time, but now if anything they're only ham-handed because they're too subtle, especially considering how far gone Earth was already supposed to be.
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# ? Mar 3, 2017 16:16 |
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, I'm not saying this is new. If anything, the US has been living in a propaganda bubble while conducting a global campaign of terror and making alliances with tyrants for a century or so. "Peace in our time" is specifically a quote from Chamberlain returning from his meeting with Hitler; it's specifically evoking that I think as well as the general concept.
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# ? Mar 3, 2017 18:34 |
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MrL_JaKiri posted:"Peace in our time" is specifically a quote from Chamberlain returning from his meeting with Hitler; it's specifically evoking that I think as well as the general concept. I got that, thanks.
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# ? Mar 4, 2017 00:18 |
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MonsieurChoc posted:I got that, thanks. Just making sure, I have no idea how much that part of British/European history is known in America
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# ? Mar 4, 2017 00:55 |
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Babylon 5 is such a mix of things. The show is sometimes shallow and twee and other times deep and meaningful. There's genuine drama and genuinely bad acting. Sometimes simplistic morals, and sometimes elaborate and complex showings of genuine conflicts between differing philosophies. It's weird how much it shines through all of the bad bits. The military bits sometimes feel like the writers and actors act like the military is just some scaled up version of football. It makes me keep thinking that a scene is going to end with "AND WE'RE GONNA WIN THAT GAME FOR THE HOME TEAM!"
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 01:12 |
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SlothfulCobra posted:Babylon 5 is such a mix of things. The show is sometimes shallow and twee and other times deep and meaningful. There's genuine drama and genuinely bad acting. Sometimes simplistic morals, and sometimes elaborate and complex showings of genuine conflicts between differing philosophies. The unspoken second half of that being "BECAUSE IF WE DON'T WE ARE ALL DEEPLY hosed!"
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 02:27 |
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Holy poo poo, Shang Tsung! I love this guy! Edit: And it's the episode with G'Kar and Londo in the elevator! Amazing! MonsieurChoc fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Mar 5, 2017 |
# ? Mar 5, 2017 08:19 |
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From the bowels of YouTube I present a camcorder copy of a one-hour Q&A with Michael O'Hare - after he left B5 but before they shot War Without End. "I'm running around in the jungle shooting Shadowmen!" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0pR5IuVptRw He's really funny and really smart, going into the psychology of acting and his role as Sinclair more than you usually get out of convention talks. It's amazing stuff.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 08:41 |
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Shbobdb posted:But redraftings forced by conflict as opposed to enabled by extension makes a better product. That's what I love about B5. It thrives in adversity, that is what makes it strong. Shadows were right?
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 09:30 |
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SlothfulCobra posted:Babylon 5 is such a mix of things. The show is sometimes shallow and twee and other times deep and meaningful. There's genuine drama and genuinely bad acting. Sometimes simplistic morals, and sometimes elaborate and complex showings of genuine conflicts between differing philosophies. The weird thing to me is how mixed babylon 5 is as a show- it didn't really work all that well for me, though there were absolutely parts where it did. While Londo and G'kar were wonderful, I thought Delenn was profoundly uninteresting and she got a lot more airtime than those two. The human characters were uneven and poorly acted, and the rangers just seemed a bit over the top to me. I found it really hard to buy the Delenn/captain stuff.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 12:23 |
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Panzeh posted:The weird thing to me is how mixed babylon 5 is as a show- it didn't really work all that well for me, though there were absolutely parts where it did. I'd say they're one of the better TV couples, just for being an actual relationship growing over time through multiple seasons instead of going from zero to "oh, they're in love now" with a single episode.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 13:16 |
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Delenn is the main character in B5. She's pivotal in EVERYTHING apart from the crappy parts of season 5.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 15:56 |
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happyhippy posted:Delenn is the main character in B5. If you listen carefully during season 5, I swear you can hear the show's plot grinding its way from Idle to High-Gear the moment Byron drops dead.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 16:04 |
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I'd say they're one of the better TV couples, just for being an actual relationship growing over time through multiple seasons instead of going from zero to "oh, they're in love now" with a single episode. I know, but I didn't find it believable that the relationship would be anything more than professional. happyhippy posted:Delenn is the main character in B5. Her acting is really not there and she's definitely a feature character which is kinda the problem with the show.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 16:04 |
I wish she'd stayed androgynous like in the pilot. And I'm sorry, but her hair/skullpiece interaction is just so distracting I can't loving focus on anything else when she's around.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 16:23 |
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Data Graham posted:I wish she'd stayed androgynous like in the pilot. It also changes randomly between her hair going under the headpiece and threading through it from episode to episode.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 16:25 |
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Panzeh posted:I know, but I didn't find it believable that the relationship would be anything more than professional. I don't know what to say other than I completely disagree. Her accent is a little tough sometimes but she's great with her eyes and facial expressions / body language.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 16:26 |
I was gonna say I do like her accent. It's unplaceable and one of the things that really sells her as an alien. Too bad none of the other Minbari had similar accents, and too bad the rest of the Centauri didn't talk like Romanian counts.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 16:28 |
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Data Graham posted:I was gonna say I do like her accent. It's unplaceable and one of the things that really sells her as an alien. The Centauri needed a good thick Russian accent. Everything's gone downhill since
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 16:30 |
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Data Graham posted:I was gonna say I do like her accent. It's unplaceable and one of the things that really sells her as an alien. Reefer (sp) had a good Centauri accent. And his death scene is still one of the best ever moments in TV history imo
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 16:32 |
happyhippy posted:Reefer (sp) had a good Centauri accent. Hell yeah. I commented on that in my recent watchthrough; running it in slow-motion and setting it in counterpoint to "No Hiding Place" being belted out by gospel singers was one of those "Yep, we've arrived in the modern era of TV drama" moments, akin to the Miami Vice "In the Air Tonight" scene.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 16:36 |
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I don't think it helps that the basic personality trait of the Religious Caste is a kind of knockoff-Vulcan refined befuddlement. The Warrior Caste gets to barely kettle their anger all the time, but it's rare to see one of the priestly types really take up any emotional space. Friends and I watched Refa's death scene a couple of months ago. I don't think I'd seen the episode since it aired originally, and spent the entire time giggling and rubbing my hands, just waiting for it.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 16:53 |
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Data Graham posted:Hell yeah. I commented on that in my recent watchthrough; running it in slow-motion and setting it in counterpoint to "No Hiding Place" being belted out by gospel singers was one of those "Yep, we've arrived in the modern era of TV drama" moments, akin to the Miami Vice "In the Air Tonight" scene. What makes that scene so good is the entire time Londo's parading around as a hologram they have G'Kar and Reefa actively responding to his actions instead of passively watching, whether it's Londo walking through them or just waving his finger under Reefa's nose.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 17:18 |
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# ? May 16, 2024 17:55 |
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Panzeh posted:Her acting is really not there and she's definitely a feature character which is kinda the problem with the show. "Acting is really not there" is definitely the show's biggest problem (O'Hare, Jurasik and Katsula were really the only ones who ever stood out), but as KHS said, Furlan's ability to emote is better than most of her colleagues. Her biggest problem is having to deliver some really, really rough dialogue while still tripping over her accent.
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# ? Mar 5, 2017 20:28 |