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l33tfuzzbox posted:Red band version of the new trailer. Few f bombs and a splash of red. They showed this last night in front of Logan and poo poo was lit. I definitely perked up at the shot of the skinless man. 
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Mar 3, 2017 18:10
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Neo Rasa posted:What is the good/bad film count threshold before someone is allowed to have an opinion about stuff being rehashed in future films? Going "I don't want old stuff in the films, it is what makes them bad" doesn't really work. You can do good films using old stuff (Aliens!) and bad films using fresh stuff. Trying to point to returning to older content as the cause of the film being bad as opposed to the execution is the problem. Going "I want a film with Newt JUST BECAUSE" is obviously not going to be a good film but that applies to anything you can make. Going "I want to do an alternate take on Alien 3 because I think there is a strong way for that story to go and want to explore it" shouldn't bother anyone. (Nor should it bother someone if someone went "I don't like what Aliens did to the Alien as a creature and I would like to make a film that explores the original bizarre inhuman creature and not the space bug.")
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Mar 3, 2017 18:12
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ImpAtom posted:Going "I want a film with Newt JUST BECAUSE" is obviously not going to be a good film... That really seems like the reason though. People love Newt and Hicks and wish they hadn't been killed off in Alien 3, that's the reason. To think there is any other reason would be extremely naïve.
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Mar 3, 2017 18:17
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Basebf555 posted:That really seems like the reason though. People love Newt and Hicks and wish they hadn't been killed off in Alien 3, that's the reason. To think there is any other reason would be extremely naïve. That's hardly the only way in which Alien 3 closed off most possibilities for the plot. I mean, jesus christ, the movie ends with Ripley hurling herself into a vat of lava.
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Mar 3, 2017 18:22
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Basebf555 posted:That really seems like the reason though. People love Newt and Hicks and wish they hadn't been killed off in Alien 3, that's the reason. To think there is any other reason would be extremely naïve. Okay? You're make a mistake here and calling that "just because" though. If people feel that Hicks and Newt's story was unsatisfactorily ended then that's a perfect valid reason to do a story with that The problem here is that we're not discussing if it would be good or not. It's that people are excited and happy about the idea someone being unhappy with how a story ended. It isn't discussing the plot, characters or themes but just how great it is that someone they don't know is upset or unsatisfied with a story. Beyond that it's also perfectly proven that people aren't going to be happy just for a character to be alive. If they were they'd be satisfied with the fact that Hicks was already retconned back from death according to a lovely video game. If you care about ~canon~ then Hicks is alive and well.
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Mar 3, 2017 18:23
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:That's hardly the only way in which Alien 3 closed off most possibilities for the plot. I mean, jesus christ, the movie ends with Ripley hurling herself into a vat of lava. True, but its THE thing that people seem to focus on, and it seems to be the main factor in Blomkamp wanting to do the project. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Blomkamp has this incredibly creative and interesting idea and it just happens to require Newt and Hicks to work, but that's not the sense I've gotten from various interviews and articles I've read.
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Mar 3, 2017 18:24
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ImpAtom posted:Okay? You're make a mistake here and calling that "just because" though. If people feel that Hicks and Newt's story was unsatisfactorily ended then that's a perfect valid reason to do a story with that The problem here is that we're not discussing if it would be good or not. It's that people are excited and happy about the idea someone being unhappy with how a story ended. It isn't discussing the plot, characters or themes but just how great it is that someone they don't know is upset or unsatisfied with a story. I don't think that its a valid reason, that's the root of the disagreement here. The fact that some people think their story didn't come to its proper conclusion is not a good enough reason to center a movie around them, but obviously that's just one man's opinion. Sry for the double post I realize I should have just quoted this in the last one.
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Mar 3, 2017 18:26
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Basebf555 posted:I don't think that its a valid reason, that's the root of the disagreement here. The fact that some people think their story didn't come to its proper conclusion is not a good enough reason to center a movie around them, but obviously that's just one man's opinion. Why isn't it? The Alien franchise is entirely people making their own story reusing the same beats over and over again. Almost each one has a different director who has taken it in their own direction. What makes this theoretical film inherently worse than Aliens bringing back Ripley because they wanted to do more with her story? Or Alien 3 doing the exact same thing? People obviously felt that Ripley's story had more to tell despite coming to no fewer than three distinct thematic conclusions including at least once being her own literal suicide. Even in the films where Ripley doesn't appear you get Bishop showing up or the dramatic origins of some minor character or whatever. Why is it okay to bring Ripley back for another two goes but somehow Newt is wrong?
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Mar 3, 2017 18:31
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Basebf555 posted:True, but its THE thing that people seem to focus on, and it seems to be the main factor in Blomkamp wanting to do the project. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Blomkamp has this incredibly creative and interesting idea and it just happens to require Newt and Hicks to work, but that's not the sense I've gotten from various interviews and articles I've read. I think the main factor with Blomkamp wanting to erase Alien 3 is less "hurr durr Hicks and Newt need alive!", and more that literally any story you can tell with the premise that involves any of the established characters has to either erase Alien 3 or clunkily write around it like Resurrection did. And if you're gonna retcon Ripley dying, you might as well at least bring Hicks back too, since Michael Biehn owns and probably needs rent money.
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Mar 3, 2017 18:31
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:I think the main factor with Blomkamp wanting to erase Alien 3 is less "hurr durr Hicks and Newt need alive!", and more that literally any story you can tell with the premise that involves any of the established characters has to either erase Alien 3 or clunkily write around it like Resurrection did. And if you're gonna retcon Ripley dying, you might as well at least bring Hicks back too, since Michael Biehn owns and probably needs rent money. Just make him Hicks's twin bro
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Mar 3, 2017 18:37
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Hunterhr posted:Have some bitchin' fan art. This would rule on so many levels.
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Mar 3, 2017 18:45
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ImpAtom posted:Why isn't it? Its easy to look back on Aliens and say it was a great idea to bring Ripley back, because it worked out. Hindsight is 20/20. But if you'd have asked me about it in 1985(I was an infant but lets just suppose) I'd have said its a bad idea unless the director really has some strong ideas about where her character should go. What Cameron accomplished with Aliens is a major reason why I think so highly of him as a director. I don't feel the same way about Blomkamp. I don't have faith that he will be able to do something fresh and exciting with Hicks and Newt, and I'm cynical of his motivations for doing the project in the first place.
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Mar 3, 2017 18:50
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Woof Blitzer posted:This would rule on so many levels. Harnessing those guys like that turns them from indecipherable cosmic horrors to attack dogs.
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Mar 3, 2017 18:53
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Basebf555 posted:Its easy to look back on Aliens and say it was a great idea to bring Ripley back, because it worked out. Hindsight is 20/20. But if you'd have asked me about it in 1985(I was an infant but lets just suppose) I'd have said its a bad idea unless the director really has some strong ideas about where her character should go. What Cameron accomplished with Aliens is a major reason why I think so highly of him as a director. Right, but you have no reason to assume that people don't have strong ideas for where the characters could go. Even if you personally don't like the outcome why does that mean it shouldn't exist? FilthyImp posted:Meh, that seems so loving dumb on a number of levels (not the least of which is the spergy nullification of the Xenoblood if you can strap an oculus rift on it). I think you could do an interesting film with the idea of a corporation that is so amoral and sick that they take this cosmic horror and make it a mundane weapon TBH. It wouldn't be interesting for the Alien as a creature but it could from the plot perspective.
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Mar 3, 2017 18:57
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ImpAtom posted:Right, but you have no reason to assume that people don't have strong ideas for where the characters could go. Even if you personally don't like the outcome why does that mean it shouldn't exist? Movies that use these established properties are a zero sum game. If an Alien movie comes out and I don't like it, that's another several years I have to wait for another one. And yes, I do have reason to believe that Blomkamp doesn't have strong ideas for the characters, because I've seen his other work. This is all opinion of course, but do I really have to say that? It seems like maybe I do.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:01
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Basebf555 posted:Movies that use these established properties are a zero sum game. If an Alien movie comes out and I don't like it, that's another several years I have to wait for another one. Why do you care? I mean that's a genuine question. Why does it matter to you that you have to wait for another "Alien" film? Are Alien films special? People began this discussion by saying that you could just as easily tell a Newt story with a new character. Isn't that true of any Alien film? Would your theoretical film that got replaced by Newt's Alien Adventure somehow be worse if it didn't have the traditional Aliens in it?
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Mar 3, 2017 19:07
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A good writer and director can take a franchise in a new direction or do something very unique without having to "cheat" and do massive ridiculous retcons that eliminate entire movies and key plot arcs. The only people who generally write like that are bad fan-fiction writers who get mad their favourite character in some superhero poo poo died, or the hero in their anime picked the incorrect romance and a lot of the fans really wanted him to be bi and gently caress the main villain of the series. If you can't tell an interesting story in an established series of movies you're a poo poo garbage uncreative writer. Is the setting of alien really so constricted after 3 movies that really don't do a lot of worldbuilding and end up killing most everyone on screen that you can't possibly tell an interesting story without fan-fiction levels of retcons? Then there's pathetic starwars level poo poo where they can't make anything without every character being related or connected in some insanely contrived way that implies some sort of mystic destiny. Alien is a setting where space is vast, cold, empty, and uncaring and doesn't give a poo poo about human concepts like "meaning" or "destiny". Other than the length of the game, Alien Isolation making the character Ripley's daughter was the worst part. And the main thing I dislike about Prometheus and what I've read about Covenant is that they're giving humanity way too much meaning and connection to the universe. I think the tone of alien works best when there's no grand meaning, humanity isn't part of some vast connected destiny and we sure as hell had nothing to do with the creation of this ancient horror beyond the stars. If Blompy wanted to make a new alien movie, great. I'm not the biggest fan but I'd actually love an indulgent love letter to Aliens. I'd love an action-movie romp full of sweet late 80's futurism tech and design. You can do all this without retconning Alien 3 out. You can set the story at any time, maybe be a good writer and create some interesting characters, and put a little thought into your movie's place in the overall story the movies are telling. Maybe pick some of the better alien comics and do something based on that? Hell give us a sweet alien vs predator movie done right, in the alien universe. Just actually write a movie, not a ridiculous what-if fan-fiction because your pet characters died.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:08
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Baronjutter posted:A good writer and director can take a franchise in a new direction or do something very unique without having to "cheat" and do massive ridiculous retcons that eliminate entire movies and key plot arcs. So James Cameron is a bad writer and director then? Baronjutter posted:Hell give us a sweet alien vs predator movie done right, in the alien universe. Just actually write a movie, not a ridiculous what-if fan-fiction because your pet characters died. "Don't give us your ridiculous fanfiction! Give us a literal crossover between two unconnected series where they fight!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Mar 3, 2017 |
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Mar 3, 2017 19:09
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ImpAtom posted:Why do you care? I mean that's a genuine question. Why does it matter to you that you have to wait for another "Alien" film? Are Alien films special? I love film in general, its a major hobby of mine. I am a fan of the Alien series, yes, and I've formed opinions about it. How bizarre. ImpAtom posted:Would your theoretical film that got replaced by Newt's Alien Adventure somehow be worse if it didn't have the traditional Aliens in it? Not really, no. I loved Prometheus. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Mar 3, 2017 |
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Mar 3, 2017 19:09
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ImpAtom posted:I think you could do an interesting film with the idea of a corporation that is so amoral and sick that they take this cosmic horror and make it a mundane weapon TBH. It wouldn't be interesting for the Alien as a creature but it could from the plot perspective.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:10
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CelticPredator posted:Yo you know what was a neat comic? The one where this lady crash lands on a weird kind of puritan like planet where they sacrifice babies to a lone Alien, and it's revealed that the babies are clones instead of like, real babies. I have to say any of theses stories on this page and laast sound more interesting than another horror movie with a crew in a spaceship.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:13
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ImpAtom posted:So James Cameron is a bad writer and director then? I don't remember him retconning entire movies out of existence. Is Avatar 2 going to pretend a bunch of the characters I don't remember didn't die and half the movie didn't happen? "That big tree? I needed it back for the 2nd movie, so I retconned it back. Also the main character is human again and I needed him to do a lot of cool action scenes so we're ignoring the whole wheelchair thing now. Fans really liked the evil general so he's still around, and his power suit is even more badass and has a power sword but I don't want to give too much away. "
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Mar 3, 2017 19:14
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Baronjutter posted:I don't remember him retconning entire movies out of existence. He made massive sweeping changes to the creatures and the characters in Aliens. He also took the stable time loop from Terminator and basically threw it to the sidelines in order to have Terminator 2 happen. Basebf555 posted:Not really, no. I loved Prometheus. So why do you care if there's more time for another Alien movie? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Mar 3, 2017 |
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Mar 3, 2017 19:15
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ImpAtom posted:So why do you care if there's more time for another Alien movie? I enjoy them. I feel like I'm missing something here. I consider Prometheus an Alien film even though it barely has any standard xenos in it.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:18
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The only surviving character from Alien was ripley and she wasn't changed, she developed based on her experiences and trauma. Nothing in Aliens retcons out Alien or can't be explained. He developed/expanded the universe, didn't retcon it. If Cameron had just brought back the entire crew of the Nostromo that would have been comparable.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:20
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FilthyImp posted:Meh, that seems so loving dumb on a number of levels (not the least of which is the spergy nullification of the Xenoblood if you can strap an oculus rift on it). Alien 3 hosed up the weaponizing part so why not take another stab at it with Neill "big rear end guns and mechs" Blomkamp
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Mar 3, 2017 19:20
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Basebf555 posted:I enjoy them. I feel like I'm missing something here. You're caring about the canon above all else is the thing. You don't want this film to exist because you might have to wait longer for the next Alien canon film, even though there is nothing stopping any film using the Alien idea from existing as its own thing with its own characters and creature. (As Prometheus basically did. ) Baronjutter posted:The only surviving character from Alien was ripley and she wasn't changed, she developed based on her experiences and trauma. Nothing in Aliens retcons out Alien or can't be explained. He developed/expanded the universe, didn't retcon it. If Cameron had just brought back the entire crew of the Nostromo that would have been comparable. So you'd be okay with a theoretical spinoff if they reveal that a time-space hole warped time and created an alternate timeline where the Sulaco didn't explode? Because apparently the only difference to you is if it can be explained. If Alien: Covenant explains the Aliens in a way that removes the Alien Queen from existing (which isn't impossible based off the concepts in Prometheus) is it a bad film? Or is it a good film as long as someone in the Extended Universe comes up with some excuse for how a queen can still exist?
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Mar 3, 2017 19:23
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ImpAtom posted:You're caring about the canon above all else is the thing. You don't want this film to exist because you might have to wait longer for the next Alien canon film, even though there is nothing stopping any film using the Alien idea from existing as its own thing with its own characters and creature. (As Prometheus basically did. ) Canon has absolutely zero to do with it. Alien movies, at their best, are about an aesthetics and themes for me. Its a lot more about Giger for me than anything else really. Bringing back dead characters is, on its face, a lazy idea. I want new Alien films that go to new places, like Prometheus did.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:29
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Sometimes I forget this thread is in CineD, holy poo poo. No, obviously that's stupid too. It's almost like "embarrassing fan-fiction level retcon because you're too uncreative to tell a story any other way" and "believable change in tone/direction needed to tell an interesting new story that still makes in-universe sense" is a sliding scale not a binary.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:31
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Basebf555 posted:Canon has absolutely zero to do with it. Alien movies, at their best, are about an aesthetics and themes for me. Its a lot more about Giger for me than anything else really. The Alien films have wildly divergent asthetic and themes. The Aliens don't even look the same from film to film, let alone the rest of the art direction. Even with the Giger influence you can't really call Alien and Aliens similar. Basebf555 posted:Bringing back dead characters is, on its face, a lazy idea. I want new Alien films that go to new places, like Prometheus did. Why not a non-alien film that goes new places? Would Prometheus have been worse if it wasn't connected at all in any way to Alien? You're just as eager to latch onto lazy stuff. If you weren't then you wouldn't be looking forward to sequels. Baronjutter posted:No, obviously that's stupid too. It's almost like "embarrassing fan-fiction level retcon because you're too uncreative to tell a story any other way" As opposed to your eager desire to see two unconnected movie monsters punch each other? Aliens vs Predator is some of the shittiest and most pathetic fanfiction ever. It's entirely born of a minor Easter Egg and exists as an excuse for mindless idiotic fights. You wanting to scream about fanfiction in literally the same paragraph you ask for the movie monster equivalent of Goku vs Superman doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:34
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I'd rather see an indulgent AvP movie based on the comics as a "love letter to the fans" than a movie that can't possibly tell its story without retconning alien 3 assembly cut out of existence, yes. I'd rather see something fresh and creative and good though.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:37
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ImpAtom posted:He made massive sweeping changes to the creatures and the characters in Aliens. He also took the stable time loop from Terminator and basically threw it to the sidelines in order to have Terminator 2 happen. He only added to the Alien. The only known facts presented in the film were, it comes from an egg, it latches on your face, it lays an Alien inside of you, and it comes out and grows. That's it. He asked the very logical question. "Where does the egg come from?" Blomkamp's idea asks the question "What would happen if these characters who I liked didn't die and the franchise went more fun and cool like I was promised!" Like I know what you're arguing, but I just don't think it really holds much here. Because the idea is, can you still tell stories in this 40 year old franchise. And I say yes, but the only way to do something like that, is to try. Prometheus I think tried. Like it or not, it is a unique story in the franchise. Whether Covenant will live up to that, who's to say. But I don't want the next Alien film after this to be Ripley and Hicks and Newt running around on Earth fighting giant Alien Queens with Power Loaders. That just sounds silly. Also like, Ripley is alive again. Why not just jump in where Resurrection ended? You got a whole new future aesthetic you can design from scratch, and a character who, while based off the original, can be molded into something unique. If you really want to do Ripley right, why not just, keep moving forward?
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Mar 3, 2017 19:38
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Baronjutter posted:I'd rather see an indulgent AvP movie based on the comics as a "love letter to the fans" than a movie that can't possibly tell its story without retconning alien 3 assembly cut out of existence, yes. I'd rather see something fresh and creative and good though. Why? What mades an indulgent badly-written tripefest based on lovely comics (which themselves retcon things) okay but a retcon doesn't? Alien 3 itself retconned things in the Alien extended universe out of existence you know. Does that make it bad?
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Mar 3, 2017 19:40
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ImpAtom posted:Why not a non-alien film that goes new places? Would Prometheus have been worse if it wasn't connected at all in any way to Alien? You're just as eager to latch onto lazy stuff. If you weren't then you wouldn't be looking forward to sequels. I'd love to see that movie too! Theoretically all movies should always go to new places, at least that's the idea. Ideally both non-alien films and Alien films would strive to take things to places(not literal places obviously) audiences haven't seen before. But Alien is an established franchise, which is the only reason a director would have the ability to bring back long dead characters. This kind of thing isn't an issue with a brand new non-alien sci fi film.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:41
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And the reason why people would rather do an Alien film with an original story vs, an original story with something like the Alien is that the Alien is too unique and interesting of a design to just rip off. That Life movie looks like the worst kind of Alien rip off. The creature itself just looks like a mass of tentacles. There's nothing really interesting about that. With Alien, you not only get a really awesome monster, but you get a package deal of a company, hell bent on weaponizing it, an asthetic that is unique to science fiction, and not to mention build it metaphors! The hell would you not want to play in the Alien's sexually covered sand box!
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Mar 3, 2017 19:41
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ImpAtom posted:Aliens vs Predator is some of the shittiest and most pathetic fanfiction ever. It's entirely born of a minor Easter Egg and exists as an excuse for mindless idiotic fights. You wanting to scream about fanfiction in literally the same paragraph you ask for the movie monster equivalent of Goku vs Superman doesn't make a lot of sense. Triple poossst! It was actually born from a guy taking a poo poo who realized that Alien and Predator were both Fox properties, and his comic company, Dark Horse, owned them both. "Let them fight" *ppffppperrrrrrttt*
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Mar 3, 2017 19:45
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CelticPredator posted:Also like, Ripley is alive again. Why not just jump in where Resurrection ended? You got a whole new future aesthetic you can design from scratch, and a character who, while based off the original, can be molded into something unique. If you really want to do Ripley right, why not just, keep moving forward? So if they made a film where Newt and Hicks were revived from DNA salvaged from their corpses by the Company, perhaps at Clone-Ripley's request, you would be okay with that story? Hell, there's even an interesting concept, the clone-Ripley desperately turning to screwed up science to bring back her lost life. If they pulled a Dune and ended up with near-perfect memory clones (as Resurrection already hinted at somewhat with Clone-Ripley herself) and it ended with Clone Newt, Clone Ripley and Clone Hicks living happily in a farm, would that be a bad story even if it was giving the A3-hating fans what they wanted?
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Mar 3, 2017 19:46
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Personally I need to see the movie before I can say whether the story justifies bringing back characters who were last seen 30 years ago. A two sentence summary isn't going to do it.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:48
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There wouldn't be a way to get Hicks and Newt's DNA so no, I wouldn't. Hicks and Newt are not interesting enough to come back. You keep missing the point though. People want to see more Alien films because they like the title character. At a base level, it's a loving neat monster. One that is still popping around today. NECA's making a million Alien toys, there's Alien vinyls, Alien plushies, ect. People love that thing. That's what the people want.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:49
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I don't know guys, I just think it'll be cool if Alien Covenant finally explains who Boba Fett's dad is.
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Mar 3, 2017 19:50
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