|
Haifisch posted:
I was speccing this and was like, whoa that's one hell of a D:3
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 03:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 23:19 |
|
|
I have encountered 5 minotaur berserker ghosts in a row.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 03:25
|
|
|
Decrepus posted:I have encountered 5 minotaur berserker ghosts in a row. Maybe it's a clustering illusion. Maybe it's MiBeline.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 03:28
|
|
|
 FR: disguises
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 03:32
|
|
|
LogicNinja posted:Maybe it's a clustering illusion. Maybe it's MiBeline. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 04:07
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 06:35
|
|
|
that's 0xa lot of arrow
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 07:07
|
|
|
LogicNinja posted:Maybe it's a clustering illusion. Maybe it's MiBeline. Ya know when it is actually .20. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 07:10
|
|
|
  
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 13:53
|
|
|
Some changes to Cynos: Detect monsters is gone completely now and just replaced with SInv (to still have the flavor of being like other dog residents). Even at 3 tiles, it still felt like it was invading Fo design space. I've also changed Strong Nose to be a single level mutation at XL 1 to detect all items in a 7 tile radius; the three level version felt overly complex for what is a pretty weak effect. Finally, dogs now have unique shout verbs because everyone demanded barking. None of these changes will be hitting the experimental branch, however, as I also rebased the branch to resubmit the species for consideration to Trunk. There weren't any other serious criticisms to address, and I can't think of anything else major I want to add or change. Any minor balancing tweaks left to make need a larger sample size to draw from to have an informed approach. Thus, time to wait and see if they are accepted, rejected but fixable, or rejected outright!
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 15:36
|
|
|
Played the council god, it's neat. It seems like there is no reason to not always be whirlwinding or wall jumping which is a little annoying to be optimal in fights. But then I also reduced my tab limit to 10% maxhp because it kept getting in the way so maybe I'm not representative. It was also rude to find out that the golden cloud ability disables invisibility the hard way.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 15:49
|
|
|
I'm sure that Steel Neuron can provide a much more informed opinion about this than I, but there is a lot of discussion in the tavern right now on the subject of whether the role of martial attacks as strict improvements over tab is ideal. My personal opinion is that it's fine, but not for everyone. I do think the martial attacks are too strong, though. Minmay thinks the martial attacks are fun, but hates them anyway. Apparently fun is too subjective a measure for whether something ought to be in the game, even if most people who have tried it agree it's fun. I understand the points he brings up, respect them, and thoroughly despise the conclusion he draws from them. The creator of the god has proposed a nerf to whirlwind's damage in combination with a slight increase to its slow chance as well as a decrease in the overall speed of wall jump. That would keep tab optimal in many situations and overall would constitute a significant, and probably much needed, nerf for the god. That seems like the best way to go, but it might require a buff, or oblique buff in other areas, like making the god give a slay bonus rising with piety that corresponds with a steep AC penalty. My personal, very pessimistic projection for the future of WJC: It will last about two versions before people like minmay convince the dev team with well reasoned, albeit pernicious arguments that it detracts from decision making and doesn't suit Crawl's design.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 16:37
|
|
|
What's the incentive for using the martial attacks if they do less damage than regular attacks? e.g., why would I want to take 4 turns to kill something (with a chance of slowing) when I could just do it in 3?
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 16:51
|
|
|
For the secondary effects, presumably. But secondary effects are moot, as you point out, if swift death is the ultimate goal.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 16:55
|
|
|
I think there might be a bug with shafted monsters. I was kiting a two-headed ogre who fell down a shaft. After like a thousand turns later when I went downstairs he was still in the same state as he was when he fell down (poisoned, at half health).
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 16:56
|
|
|
It seems like that would put WJC in the same position as cleaving: you should still avoid the situations in which it's most effective.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 16:57
|
|
|
Heithinn Grasida posted:My personal, very pessimistic projection for the future of WJC: It will last about two versions before people like minmay convince the dev team with well reasoned, albeit pernicious arguments that it detracts from decision making and doesn't suit Crawl's design. While I definitely see where minmay is coming from, I believe he falls into his usual trap of overly negative thinking (some negative thinking is generally good). The typical instance goes like this: "feature X has this drawback, so it's not good, so it couldn't ever be good, so let's remove/not implement". I'll use cleaving because (a) I've just won a BaFi who found and clung to the Obsidian Axe (yay me!) and (b) because it's related to martial arts as combat moves. You could say that cleaving removes choices because of the following reasons: when adjacent to more than one monster, you'll attack all of them anyway; i.e. the choice of who to target is gone. Secondly, you don't want to be adjacent to more than one monster anyway, so you really should play like you don't have cleaving (implying that axes are shoddy because they trade some base damage for the attack move cleaving). However, that's not a very fair assessment because there are choices that are genuinely new, i.e. only come up on axes: sometimes, you want to reposition so that you have the most important enemies at your side. Sometimes you don't want to attack because some adjacent weakling provides cover. Cleaving itself has minor impact on brand priorities and usefulness of berserk etc. And terrain assessment: there are situations where you cannot prevent being surrounded: these situations are different for an axe user than for users of other weapons. The verdict --is axe cleaving a good addition-- therefore is more subtle. If we think that cleaving is not quite good enough (design, not power), then we could tweak the rules before resigning to removing the feature. (Note: I suggested to import cleaving from Brogue, and I am very happy with it, although inevitably I see scope for improvement.) I am saying all of this because the WJC moves may work out similarly. (I guess all this should really go into the relevant tavern thread but I cannot bring myself to do that, and I know that SteelNeuron reads this as well.) My main beef with the current moves is that wall jumping makes escaping so drat easy. It is already very easy in Crawl, and I already hate luring, so unlimited wall jumping does not sound like a move (ha!) to me. Moreover, I don't think that slightly more auts for walljumps is a good idea: very hard to assess for players, and not fun to lose a game because someone got a second attack due to the jump taking one turn + 10%. I believe that walljump should be held in check through a simple rule (some have been mentioned here, or on the tavern), like no jumping when not adjacent toa monster (before and/or after the jump, various design possibilities). There's also the issue that repeated whirlwinds shouldn't be stronger against a single opponent than plain tabbing. However, these issues can be dealt with through continuous playtesting and design, and that's why I disagree with the minmay conclusion (not with the report itself, though, that's at the very least interesting reading) and hope Heithinn is not right. (For comparison: Pakellas got removed for lack of breadth. WJC and its issues are completely different.) dpeg fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Mar 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 17:03
|
|
|
Fitzy Fitz posted:What's the incentive for using the martial attacks if they do less damage than regular attacks? e.g., why would I want to take 4 turns to kill something (with a chance of slowing) when I could just do it in 3? It can let you reposition around an enemy without losing attacks, and also lets you pull a fighting retreat if you get surrounded by a pack that is faster than you. On the other hand, Whirlwind also literally killed me by chopping up the ufetebus I was trying to hide behind until my teleport went off to avoid getting hit by damnation from a Hell Sentinel in Abyss.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 17:05
|
|
|
My issue starting off with WJC was I didn't know when I should be using martial attacks vs regular attacks, so I still tabbed a lot. I mostly just used martial attacks for fun, even though I could still kill things fine with tab. Then I learned that they did the same damage, so there was no reason to use regular ones. I understand the emphasis on options/choices, but I wonder if decreased damage would be the wrong tweak because it might encourage you to go back to just tabbing except in niche cases. I like the idea of limiting wall jumps to only when enemies are adjacent (though I did appreciate these extra jumps when I was a slow hopkin). Maybe whirlwind damage could be reduced slightly when multiple enemies are affected (but leave the same when only one is). That gives you the choice of killing one guy right now or working efficiently on the whole group. Even then though you could probably just tab through most encounters. Being "forced" to use martial abilities (because there's no reason not to) seems like a nice quality tbh.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 17:22
|
|
|
Fitzy Fitz posted:What's the incentive for using the martial attacks if they do less damage than regular attacks? e.g., why would I want to take 4 turns to kill something (with a chance of slowing) when I could just do it in 3? Because lunge does more damage against slowed enemies, whirlwind would still be the best choice against groups. As it is, whirlwind only really turns out better against groups, calculating strictly in terms of damage dealt versus damage received, when you incorporate lunge into your patterns. Presumably a lower damage whirlwind would make it worse against single targets (without making it totally unattractive) and make corridors more attractive while still generally promoting fighting in the open. I think it's a somewhat dangerous change, but would probably have a positive effect. Personally, I think martial abilities don't need special effects at all to be viable except for a modest damage boost on lunge. I know SteelNeuron strongly disagrees with that, though. But even if the martial abilities dealt the same damage as tab, they will still be more attractive in most situations. And that's not a bad thing. An opt-in situation that breaks the paradigm of melee combat and allows you to change how the game is played is fine, even if minmay is right and it ends up a little more reductive, because the god option exists in contrast to, rather than in replacement of, standard melee combat. It's fine to let players choose to sometimes opt to play the game differently at the cost of some advantages and disadvantages. That makes the game more interesting and, yes, fun. dpeg posted:Moreover, I don't think that slightly more auts for walljumps is a good idea: very hard to assess for players, and not fun to lose a game because someone got a second attack due to the jump taking one turn + 10%. I believe that walljump should be held in check through a simple rule (some have been mentioned here, or on the tavern), like no jumping when not adjacent toa monster (before and/or after the jump, various design possibilities). I agree with this. As it is, wall jump is too accessible for what it does. My own, very rough, suggestion was to give WJC a uskayaw style piety mechanic that starts with lunge and whirlwind being available and only allows access to wall jump after several turns in combat. Wall jump could even consume significant piety to limit it's use, since piety under that model is so easily accrued. Of course, this idea has plenty of its own issues.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 17:50
|
|
|
Even during the Orb Run, it's never too late to share the Good Word 
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 18:24
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 18:28
|
|
|
I somehow won with 7 deaths which is funny and also possibly my most questionable win: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue//bananaken/morgue-bananaken-20170306-173105.txtquote:Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.20-a0-830-g2c9a30d (webtiles) character file. I dove a zig as a last ditch effort while I was only level 21 and got lucky enough with potions of experience to get firestorm castable without brilliance which saved the run. I like that zigs are an option in these cases since they're fun even if they're stupidly risky
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 18:50
|
|
|
I know it was a heavy logistical issue and such but I really miss ammo options/brands. Made ranged combat a lot more fun.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 18:52
|
|
|
Ugly John posted:I know it was a heavy logistical issue and such but I really miss ammo options/brands. Made ranged combat a lot more fun. Large Rocks of Penetration 
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 20:20
|
|
|
PleasingFungus posted:the problem with your 'joke' is that it wasn't funny. disagree, gently poking fun at crawl devs for removing content for no identifiable reason is p. much what this thread is about. didn't mean to offend you so much, sorry. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2017 20:23
|
|
|
Trump is president and the martial arts god with his own unique playstyle is going to be removed and the tabgods aren't.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 02:19
|
|
|
Wall jumping without an enemy in direct contact is a neat thing. At one point I jumped towards a distant hydra, distracted it on the landing, then immediately lunged for the kill. A -jump effect so you can't infinitely chain jumps would be plenty imo. I wouldn't shed any tears if whirlwind lost the slow though. Without that whirlwind is only better than tab when you want to reposition (which is cool and good), the slow effect is a boring way to set up lunges, and the god doesn't really need a fourth thing to let you get clear of monsters.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 02:47
|
|
|
tote up a bags posted:Trump is president and the martial arts god with his own unique playstyle is going to be removed and the tabgods aren't. I'll have you know Okawaru offers compelling tab based gameplay that the Wu Jian council sully with their presence.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 02:59
|
|
|
I don't get the complaints about Okawaru being nothing but tabbing. You get two invocations dependent abilities from it, Tab Harder and Tab Faster. That's plenty to differentiate your play style in unique and interesting ways.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 03:03
|
|
|
Council god giving explicitly stronger melee abilities sounds a-ok. There is a very big decision for using them over tabbing: your opportunity cost as a god. Whirlwind being better than tabbing is fine, because heroism and tabbing is stronger than just tabbing, TSO's halo and holy brand and tabbing is stronger than just tabbing, and so on. Also, Tab was invented&implemented for the very reason that dcss has super boring melee combat with a huge midgame slog (the latter is being addressed). So council god's decision making is a bit more meta; it's taxing your brainpower to play optimally. I'd rather have strong optional content added instead of more felids.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 03:03
|
|
|
I prefer Gozag as my resident tab-god. Press tab, get gold, spend gold to tab harder. What's not to love?
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 03:14
|
|
|
Sojenus posted:I don't get the complaints about Okawaru being nothing but tabbing. You get two invocations dependent abilities from it, Tab Harder and Tab Faster. That's plenty to differentiate your play style in unique and interesting ways.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 03:16
|
|
|
Wu Jian council character: Warlock's Mirror or Shield of the Gong? Gong shield provides rN and MR, both of which I'm lacking, plus the huge shield boost is good with my high strength, but warlock's mirror is so good and the lack of EV penalty is better for getting off my parries.
Emmideer fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Mar 7, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 03:38
|
|
|
So I just got my second rune with a DEWz, and I have literally never gotten a caster even close to this far before, so I am left awkwardly wondering what to do next and simultaneously terrified of loving up. Any tips/suggestions/help?
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 03:47
|
|
|
Hadn't won with TSO in quite some time, figured I'd see if I could take a MiFi to extended end game, but drops weren't going my way so settled for a regular 3-rune win. Things got dicey a couple of times, and I got mutated to poo poo on Z5 to the point where I considered ending the run, but I worked through it. I think I'm going to try something a bit odd next time around. Anyone have suggestions for a 'decent' combo that is a bit out of the norm? pre: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.19.5 (webtiles) character file.
pmj79 the Minotaur Barricade (Minotaur Gladiator) Turns: 73816, Time: 07:49:40
Health: 245/245 AC: 39 Str: 31 XL: 27
Magic: 32/32 EV: 23 Int: 3 God: the Shining One [******]
Gold: 5092 SH: 34 Dex: 23 Spells: 4 memorised, 24 levels left
rFire + + . SeeInvis . b - +9 broad axe (holy)
rCold + . . Gourm . B - +4 gold dragon scales
rNeg + + + Faith . s - +5 shield of the Country {Dex+4}
rPois + Spirit . Z - +2 hat {Int+3}
rElec . Reflect + K - +2 ratskin cloak {rPois rN+ Int-1 Dex-1}
rCorr + Harm . N - +2 pair of gloves {Dex+3}
MR +++.. Rnd*Rage + J - +2 pair of boots
Stlth .......... w - brooch of Shielding {Reflect SH+8}
p - ring of resist corrosion
S - ring "Maaq" {rF+ MR+ Str+4 Stlth+}
@: glowing
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2, berserk 1, deformed body, deterioration 2,
dopey 2, frail 1, screaming 1
a: Divine Shield, Cleansing Flame, Summon Divine Warrior, Renounce Religion
0: Orb of Zot
}: 3/15 runes: barnacled, silver, gossamer
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 03:59
|
|
|
Princey posted:So I just got my second rune with a DEWz, and I have literally never gotten a caster even close to this far before, so I am left awkwardly wondering what to do next and simultaneously terrified of loving up. Probably Elf, you have enough MR/dps for it. Master archers will be the highest threat, so are you normally ok v projectiles? Also stop training spellcasting holy cow. Depths is dangerous but predictable otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 04:04
|
|
|
tote up a bags posted:Trump is president and the martial arts god with his own unique playstyle is going to be removed and the tabgods aren't. Are they really taking out Council god? Because that would be pretty funny.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 04:10
|
|
|
Captain Monkey posted:Are they really taking out Council god? Because that would be pretty funny. no. all dev resources are focused on a much more critical task: newnewnewnewnewnewnewnewNemelex
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 04:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 23:19 |
|
|
PleasingFungus posted:no. all dev resources are focused on a much more critical task: newnewnewnewnewnewnewnewNemelex I have a suggestion:
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2017 04:22
|
|
