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HEY GAIL posted:spinoza rules and we should all read him. i'm not sure about "novel," since nature is also God, but "entertaining" definitely. First time I heard of him. How come he rules? CountFosco posted:Is it time to reclaim our heritage of abhorring and abstaining from usury? Is it even possible? Something something St. Basil, St. John Chrysostm and St. Ambrose AmyL fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Mar 5, 2017 |
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Mar 5, 2017 07:16
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HEY GAIL posted:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/04/vatican-civil-war-conservatives-battle-francis-lent i was like "this sounds positively trumpian" and then i saw burke lmao i wonder if bannon gave him the idea
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Mar 5, 2017 07:27
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Senju Kannon posted:i was like "this sounds positively trumpian" and then i saw burke lmao i wonder if bannon gave him the idea AmyL posted:First time I heard of him. How come he rules?
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Mar 5, 2017 07:43
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HEY GAIL posted:imagine a world in which the latest hot pope drama is so important to you you have to go put up an angry poster about it absent all political context i'd be down for that
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Mar 5, 2017 07:49
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StashAugustine posted:absent all political context i'd be down for that
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Mar 5, 2017 07:50
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HEY GAIL posted:i wonder if burke realizes his devouring need to grind the queers and the uppity women underfoot has led him to make common cause with a literal devil worshiper? I'm surprised the Orthodox did not excommunicate him as well for a hat trick
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Mar 5, 2017 08:35
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Mr Enderby posted:Neoplatonism is a hell of a drug. I might have to make this sign the next protest I go to. Tias posted:Please forgive me for having babys first contact with Spinoza in this thread, but I just saw an introduction to his thought today, and this stuff is kind of blowing my mind. The problem with that is that even if we were fragments of God it still doesn't really explain a lot of things. For instance is there any difference between being a part of an "oversoul" shared throughout the direct connection with divinity and possessing a soul or consciousness?
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Mar 5, 2017 08:44
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AmyL posted:I'm surprised the Orthodox did not excommunicate him as well for a hat trick or maybe like there's some greek dude who got real lost, all "...poo poo."
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Mar 5, 2017 08:45
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CountFosco posted:"Interesting" is a pretty broad term. I think it's important not to let "interesting" turn into elitism, where we disdain "common" people who lead "uninteresting" lives. There's plenty of interesting but evil things. And I kind of feel like those last statements there seem to be trending towards an unabashed monism. I make no value judgment. I'm a viking nerd living in a crummy one room apartment and I can't hold a job because of disability. If I thought my life wasn't interesting to God, I'd live it differently, as much as I was able. Anyway, I'm just commenting on Spinoza as I understand him. If what he says is monism, then that is the notion we are entertaining, I suppose. Josef bugman posted:I might have to make this sign the next protest I go to. I don't necessarily want it to explain things. I want to imagine I'm riding an amazing bike, and also the bike is part me and part God.  HEY GAIL posted:it's the The Middle Ages Never Ended cyberpunk parallel universe I did play a shadowrun game working for the pope once :iamafag:
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Mar 5, 2017 11:20
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HEY GAIL posted:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/04/vatican-civil-war-conservatives-battle-francis-lent A dubium does not challenge the pope's authority! Submitting dubia implicitly accepts the pope's authority because you're treating him as the guy who can actually give a definitive answer to those questions, as opposed to everyone else who can just theorize! ...but yeah anti-pope posters are weird. I have a hard time imagining even someone living in Rome next door to the Vatican getting that invested in the curia.
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Mar 5, 2017 15:40
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HEY GAIL posted:imagine a world in which the latest hot pope drama is so important to you you have to go put up an angry poster about it Sounds dangerously protestant.
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Mar 5, 2017 16:51
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I went to the Latin Mass today. Here's my trip report. Mass was at 8:30. I figured that no one would show up for 8:30 mass because it was 8:30. I was wrong. The place was packed, I had trouble finding somewhere to park and sit. I couldn't find the missals, so I just had to sit there and hope college Latin could save me. It didn't. The Gregorian Chant was nice, but nothing drags like a ritual in a language you don't understand. If anything, this has convinced me to study Latin again, so I won't fall behind. Nice mix of people. Everyone had a Catholic radio bumper sticker, except for the guy who had the coexist sticker but it said convert to the catholic church. Big mix of ages from very young to old. I'd say average age was ~34. I don't know how to put this, but the people at the Catholic Church seem less...pretentious than those at the Orthodox Church I go to. Everyone at the Orthodox Church is a convert so people tend to wave their Orthodox dicks around and show off, whereas everyone there is just Catholic, albeit conservative. Church was gigantic. Giant alter. Stained glass everywhere. Everything echoes really well. However, this meant that I couldn't really understand anything being said because I was in the back. When a baby cries during the service in a church that big, it sounds like the baby is crying outside of space and time, which is cool. The preaching styles are different as well. I'm not sure if seminaries do this or if it's just the way people speak in Orthodoxy, but they tend to follow a Greek style of oration. Everyone copies John Chrysostom hard. At the Catholic Church, the priest spoke more logically than rhetorically. It sounded a bit like someone's college essay on temptation. I guess that's just the difference between Western and Eastern preaching. I had to leave pretty quick after mass because my back was killing me, it hurt to sit or stand. Luckily, we kneeled like 2/3 of the service. Note: some of this might be wrong because I was in some pain, I'm sorry if you're reading this Father Hinkelstein All in all, pretty good, wish I wasn't in pain and that I had a missal, will probably go back next week sorry guys
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Mar 5, 2017 17:09
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zonohedron posted:
As far as I can see there is still a considerable part of Roman society that gets really invested in papal politics, especially the old noble families of Rome (some of which are rumoured to have financed the print of those posters). Also posters like these have a very long tradition in Rome, so this has to be seen as a genuinely Roman expression of political/ecclesiastical discontent (some of the posters also were plastered on these statues). I obviously don't agree with the sentiment behind them, but considering the tradition behind the platform this sentiment is expressed on as well as the fact that I do love me some nice palace intrigues I have to say that a part of me thinks that this is kinda cool 
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Mar 5, 2017 17:36
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no, it's incredibly cool. it's just the pro francis side needs to up their poster game but who doesn't love a scurrilous broadsheet
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Mar 5, 2017 23:40
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Smoking Crow posted:However, this meant that I couldn't really understand anything being said because I was in the back. When a baby cries during the service in a church that big, it sounds like the baby is crying outside of space and time, which is cool.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:43
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HEY GAIL posted:it's not just the acoustics, some latin mass priests are really quiet. if you want to hear what he's saying or say the responses yourself, stand in front. I never understood the Hoc est corpus-hocus pocus thing until now It's me, I'm the medieval villager
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Mar 6, 2017 00:02
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zonohedron posted:A dubium does not challenge the pope's authority! Submitting dubia implicitly accepts the pope's authority because you're treating him as the guy who can actually give a definitive answer to those questions, as opposed to everyone else who can just theorize! this has nothing to do with what we were talking about, i just wanted to share
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Mar 6, 2017 02:47
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HEY GAIL posted:a friend of mine said the best brothel in rome is up against the vatican walls but she must have gone like...more than a decade ago so i dunno if this is still current The Whores of Rome?
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Mar 6, 2017 03:15
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Edit: Unnecessary.
Cythereal fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 04:40
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Cythereal posted:Only change from history is that the best brothel is now outside the walls. let's not throw stones the US abolished slavery well after the Catholic Church did
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Mar 6, 2017 06:51
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AmyL posted:The Whores of Rome? The Whore of Babylon?
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Mar 6, 2017 07:19
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Pellisworth posted:let's not throw stones You're talking about a country where one state didn't ratify the loving "let's ban slavery" amendment until loving 1995. By all means, throw stones. >_> At any rate, that comment I made was uncalled for and have deleted it.
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Mar 6, 2017 13:56
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So here's a thought experiment! For Catholics, Eastern or Latin, and I believe also for the Orthodox, communion requires wheat bread and grape wine. So, obviously, rice bread and rice wine are not able to be consecrated, but it also can't be wheat-and-rice or grape-and-apple; gotta be just wheat and just grape. A lawsuit alleges that 28 wineries produced wine with arsenic in it. Does the presence of arsenic make the wine "not just wine"? I ask, because reading the article reminded me of a passage in Catholicism and Fundamentalism where Karl Keating quotes an anti-Catholic book as quoting an anti-Catholic poem where a good solid upright Christian guy tells his bad weak pagan Catholic wife to invite the priest to celebrate Mass at their house, and after the consecration he tells the priest, "Half an ounce of arsenic was mixed into the batter / but since you have its nature changed, it cannot really matter," so the priest runs away and the wife leaves Catholicism at once. In the book, Keating points out that since our claim is that the substance of the bread has changed, we'd expect that the arsenic would be left behind; however, he doesn't say (because it's a book about anti-Catholicism, not a book about autistic devotion to tiny details) whether that would make it unconfectable. This is an ask/tell thread, so it seems ideal for autistic devotion to tiny details. Is the quantity of arsenic the problem? Half an ounce is okay, but two ounces wouldn't be? Or half an ounce is not okay, but half a dram would be fine? (And if so, what do you do with the poisonous Host after consecration?) How about for the wine listed above - is the fact that there's apparently 500% the recommended maximum daily intake "too much", or do we need to get into "yeah I just poured some arsenic into the bottle" territory?
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Mar 6, 2017 17:01
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zonohedron posted:A lawsuit alleges that 28 wineries produced wine with arsenic in it. Does the presence of arsenic make the wine "not just wine"? I once read (or watched, don't remember) some priest talking about confession, and he brought that exact example - if a guy were to go to confession before mass and said "I've poisoned the communion wine for today", the priest would have to use that wine anyway because he can't act on what he heard in confession. Now I wonder what would have to happen if the guy had instead said "I've replaced the wine with sake and food dye".
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Mar 6, 2017 17:07
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I'm pretty sure that in a case like that you can act on what you heard in confession as long as you make sure no one knows where it came from?
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Mar 6, 2017 17:13
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Here's a question for Lent: Are snails meat or fish, for the purposes of abstaining from meat while fasting? If I were to crack open a can of snails and eat that on toast, would I be breaking my fast?
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Mar 6, 2017 19:36
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Ceciltron posted:Here's a question for Lent: Pretty sure they are defined as 'neither' (at least there are parts of Germany where they are a traditional lent dish), so go
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Mar 6, 2017 19:38
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pidan posted:I once read (or watched, don't remember) some priest talking about confession, and he brought that exact example - if a guy were to go to confession before mass and said "I've poisoned the communion wine for today", the priest would have to use that wine anyway because he can't act on what he heard in confession. Now I wonder what would have to happen if the guy had instead said "I've replaced the wine with sake and food dye". I'm sorry, but what possible reasoning is there for this? I mean utilitarianism be damned this would be a abrogation of responsibility!
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Mar 6, 2017 19:45
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Josef bugman posted:I'm sorry, but what possible reasoning is there for this? I mean utilitarianism be damned this would be a abrogation of responsibility! to be fair there's different rules of thought vis a vis seal of confession (which is important because if you can't trust a priest to not blab about your sins no one would confess them) some say if someone says they're going to kill you you have to let them, others say "no that's stupid" if you don't say WHY you're replacing the communion wine, it could also be considered okay
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Mar 6, 2017 20:24
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zonohedron posted:Is the quantity of arsenic the problem? Half an ounce is okay, but two ounces wouldn't be? Or half an ounce is not okay, but half a dram would be fine? (And if so, what do you do with the poisonous Host after consecration?) How about for the wine listed above - is the fact that there's apparently 500% the recommended maximum daily intake "too much", or do we need to get into "yeah I just poured some arsenic into the bottle" territory? I would think so, since there are already extant pastoral guidance letters sent from bishops (I am not digging them up again, I went down the rabbit hole one time whether or not wine with added sulfites is valid matter a few months ago) that designate limits for adulterants. For example when the Americas were being colonized by Spain and Portugal they needed to ship wine over, but wine goes bad on such a long voyage unless you fortify it, so there are rules on how much brandy you can add to wine and have it still be valid matter. Likewise if you open up a bottle of wine and let it sit, it slowly turns to vinegar, so there are also rules on how much vinegar content the wine can have until it's considered spoiled and no longer valid, etc. I imagine that the level of arsenic that's allowed in sacramental wine would basically be just trace amounts, though. When you get into the situation of someone adding a bottle of arsenic to the sacramental wine, you've departed from the wine used at the Last Supper and that would make it not okay for transubstantiation.
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Mar 6, 2017 20:35
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What's the wheat thing about? I mean the last supper was a Passover meal, but barley or rye would still be okay for that, wouldn't it?
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Mar 6, 2017 21:19
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Surely if God is present in this thing it does not matter how adulterated it has been.
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Mar 6, 2017 21:34
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Also, arsenic is something that is dangerous in cumulative exposure, like mercury. There's 500% your daily recommended value in... the whole bottle? One "serving?" For just a sip of wine once a week that's not a big deal. It's not immediately poisonous but you would definitely want to switch to something cleaner especially for any pregnant moms or young kids.
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Mar 6, 2017 21:49
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Josef bugman posted:Surely if God is present in this thing it does not matter how adulterated it has been. you'd think but apparently it does which is why you can't have rice bread and rice wine in countries where that's what bread and wine look like so even though there's evidence early christians celebrated mass with water in regions where christians were heavily persecuted apparently it has to be leaven wheat bread and grape wine which sucks for celiacs and recovering alcoholics
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Mar 6, 2017 21:50
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Pellisworth posted:Also, arsenic is something that is dangerous in cumulative exposure, like mercury. There's 500% your daily recommended value in... the whole bottle? One "serving?" For just a sip of wine once a week that's not a big deal. It's not immediately poisonous but you would definitely want to switch to something cleaner especially for any pregnant moms or young kids. Yeah, don't give your congregation poison wine. I hear that what we call wine nowadays is different from the wine of Roman days, theirs was stronger which is why you'd normally mix it with some water before drinking. So in my personal view you can probably have communion with any food & drink that is reasonably similar to bread and wine. Sorry, people who care about leavened vs unleavened 
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Mar 6, 2017 21:55
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even when i was catholic i hated the rubric on what did and didn't count, but that's cause forcing countries to import grain products because there isn't domestic grain production sounds a bit like imperialism and unfitting for christ's church
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Mar 6, 2017 21:59
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P-Mack posted:What's the wheat thing about? I mean the last supper was a Passover meal, but barley or rye would still be okay for that, wouldn't it? The Catholic Church is pretty strict on only allowing the host to be made of wheat flour and water. I think you can add salt too even though it's illicit. Adding oil or yeast makes it invalid matter. From a historical perspective nobody really seems to know what the bread at the Last Supper was really like. Was it leavened or unleavened, was it wheat or barley, etc. On one level the restrictions that the Catholic Church places on the bread and wine seem really anal, and on the other it at least provides a common experience shared among the Latin Rite churches. You don't get priests trying to use raisin bread and orange juice during the 6:30 AM Mass for example.
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Mar 6, 2017 21:59
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The Phlegmatist posted:The Catholic Church is pretty strict on only allowing the host to be made of wheat flour and water. I think you can add salt too even though it's illicit. Adding oil or yeast makes it invalid matter. yeah but there's a line between forcing cultures that don't eat wheat to eat wheat and "anything goes" where you can be culturally and economically sensitive and tbh i don't like a universal experience that presupposes the west as default lmao
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Mar 6, 2017 22:04
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I'd get if it mirrored the Passover restrictions for the sake of representing the historical last supper, but wheat just for the sake of wheat rubs me the wrong way too... not crazy about losing the connection to "daily bread". I think Jesus would inhabit pruno if that was all the faithful had access to.
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Mar 6, 2017 22:18
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Josef bugman posted:Surely if God is present in this thing it does not matter how adulterated it has been. For Catholics (and Orthodox) God is not "present in this thing" but rather "this thing has become God". Given that we are encouraged to literally adore the Host as if it was God, even though (ordinarily) it still looks like bread, smells like bread, tastes like bread, and sounds like bread breaking when broken, it matters that we stick to what we know may be consecrated, so that we don't presume "hey our intentions are good, that's enough, right?" and inadvertantly lead someone into worshipping bread. Senju Kannon posted:yeah but there's a line between forcing cultures that don't eat wheat to eat wheat and "anything goes" where you can be culturally and economically sensitive Sure, but we've also ruled that you can't be baptized in beer, or sand, or urine - it has to be a liquid and it has to be something people would consider "water". Muddy = okay. Stagnant = okay. Not water = not okay. And with baptism even desire counts, so you'd think "well she really really wanted to be baptized and this was what we had" would be okay, but nope. In general with the sacraments I'm okay with setting a very strict definition of what matter will be acceptable, just like I'm okay with saying that the form of the sacrament can't vary either. (That is, even though having to track down people invalidly baptized and get them conditionally rebaptized isn't ideal, it's better than not reacting immediately and harshly to "I baptize you in the name of the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sanctifier.") Yes, that means importing wheat into places that don't customarily have wheat; yes, that means that someone who is allergic to wine and also gluten-intolerant or allergic to gluten (because even intolerance is definitely no joke) can only make a spiritual communion. These are not good things but they're also unavoidable. :/ The Phlegmatist posted:I would think so, since there are already extant pastoral guidance letters sent from bishops (I am not digging them up again, I went down the rabbit hole one time whether or not wine with added sulfites is valid matter a few months ago) that designate limits for adulterants. For example when the Americas were being colonized by Spain and Portugal they needed to ship wine over, but wine goes bad on such a long voyage unless you fortify it, so there are rules on how much brandy you can add to wine and have it still be valid matter. Likewise if you open up a bottle of wine and let it sit, it slowly turns to vinegar, so there are also rules on how much vinegar content the wine can have until it's considered spoiled and no longer valid, etc. So if Franzia box wine is otherwise okay, "enough arsenic to notice, but it wasn't put in purposefully" doesn't make it not okay. Makes sense!
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Mar 6, 2017 22:34
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