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resurgam40 posted:e: the points made about Kasumi and Eva, why they turned out the way they did, and way that relates to Beatrice... as well as the sad acknowledgement that sometimes, such people are too far gone to help- remain salient and poignant, and speaks well of Ange's character that she is able to get beyond the things her classmates did to her and not let it change her into an abuser as well. As is the instrument of the Black Witch, a being borne of nursing and sharing pain instead of healing it, being broken and hurting her instead, even if that is a bit on the nose. I mean... she kind of just ultraviolenced them to death! But it's interesting how we're supposed to see this act (her being responsible for the deaths of Kasumi and all of her minions) as breaking the cycle of violence, rather than perpetuating it. It feels so cognitively dissonant, but it obviously works in some way. I don't really know what to make of it.
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Mar 7, 2017 17:45
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tiistai posted:100% precto posted:Color me surprised if that whole scene wasn't Amakusa with a sniper rifle from a grassy knoll. ProfessorProf posted:I went back down with Amakusa. He was carrying what looked like a really large and heavy golf bag. It was something Amakusa had brought back with him on a day when we'd split up. I didn't inquire as to its contents, but it was hard to imagine that they were anything peaceful.  That said... Ange got shot at too before time froze. Was she hit? She might well be in some kind of delirious state now, especially if she's seeing blue-haired animes.
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Mar 7, 2017 18:25
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"Why are these things so darn heavy all the time? A French instructor taught me something interesting about that once. He said they should always be heavy. After all, a human life is heavier than the world. So these should be even heavier."
"That would be nice."
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idonotlikepeas posted:
Yeah, that's what I'm wondering too. The game said that chunks of flesh were flying at the time before things got explicitly magical, so I'm kinda afraid that everything that is being seen afterwards might be An Occurance at Owl Creek Bridge scenario. It's interesting though how we'll have someone who believes in magic fully help defeat Beatrice by claiming that magic doesn't exist. Speaking of nonmagical events, my theory for what's been going on in this board is that when the adults demanded that Krauss show that Kinzo is still alive, he couldn't so he started the massacre. It's interesting to me how Krauss and Shannon had both had their face only half covered in blood when they were shown as dead in multiple game boards, and they are the ones in the best position of murdering people. Genji is also shown with a half bloodied face too in this board but I don't know about the other ones, but he has been strongly implied to be helping out with the massacres what with his alternate form being Renove. Perhaps Krauss was in a terrible place once the Epitaph of the Gold was written. Kinzo had shown that his inheritance was open to anyone could take it, meaning that unless Krauss could solve it, he wouldn't have anymore right towards it than anyone else. His only virtue in the family had been that he was the oldest, but now even that had no importance to Kinzo. Krauss is not as clever as his younger siblings so he would definitely not have been able to solve the epitaph. Murdering them is a good consolation prize though.
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Mar 7, 2017 19:17
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I guess it could be like Silent Hill's bad ending. As in Ange was shot and is now bleeding out, but having hallucinations of Purgatory Sisters and Eva reviving just to be killed. That would be stupid though, Silent Hill's bad ending was stupid too.
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Mar 7, 2017 19:23
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EagerSleeper posted:Speaking of nonmagical events, my theory for what's been going on in this board is that when the adults demanded that Krauss show that Kinzo is still alive, he couldn't so he started the massacre. It's interesting to me how Krauss and Shannon had both had their face only half covered in blood when they were shown as dead in multiple game boards, and they are the ones in the best position of murdering people. Genji is also shown with a half bloodied face too in this board but I don't know about the other ones, but he has been strongly implied to be helping out with the massacres what with his alternate form being Renove. I've been thinking about Krauss too, and whether he is bitter and crazy enough to start this whole thing off. The problem is, though, the time of death: He dies in the first twilight in two of the three stories and his corpse is accounted for and in both instances, extremely hard to fake (face smashed off, guts out), so how would he have gone about killing the others? instructions to the servants, who "carried out his will"? The only games where he himself was in a position to kill anyone has been this game, and the last one: he's named as dead both times, but the bodies are not conclusive (and in this game, hasn't been found yet), so what's your thinking there? In the third game, he's mostly in the room and being watched by Natsuhi until his death, so how would you propose he moves around? Which leaves the fourth game, in which, yeah, he's got a lot of freedom, and the entire instances we've seen might be a load of hoo-ha... so do you think he was shooting people and corralled them somewhere until a break was made? Do you mind unpacking your thoughts on this a little?
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Mar 7, 2017 19:38
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If there are multiple killers with different agendas, it's not impossible for one person to kill one or more victims and then themselves be murdered by someone who finished the job... So to speak.
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Mar 7, 2017 19:40
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So, is end-of-episode-3-Ange the Ange we just saw? Because if so, it put's Lamdbadelta's conversation with her in a whole different light, as she knew it all already.Tender Child Loins posted:I mean... she kind of just ultraviolenced them to death! But it's interesting how we're supposed to see this act (her being responsible for the deaths of Kasumi and all of her minions) as breaking the cycle of violence, rather than perpetuating it. It feels so cognitively dissonant, but it obviously works in some way. I don't really know what to make of it. Don't you see, only when no-one is left alive are we truly free of hate. That's the real message of magic. tiistai posted:100% I still think it was a good guess!
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Mar 7, 2017 19:43
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Fabulousvillain posted:I guess it could be like Silent Hill's bad ending. As in Ange was shot and is now bleeding out, but having hallucinations of Purgatory Sisters and Eva reviving just to be killed. That would be stupid though, Silent Hill's bad ending was stupid too. Sometimes good things have unsatisfying endings. I've been through enough of them already to be somewhat okay with it if this is where the game is heading.  Edit resurgam40 posted:I've been thinking about Krauss too, and whether he is bitter and crazy enough to start this whole thing off. The problem is, though, the time of death: He dies in the first twilight in two of the three stories and his corpse is accounted for and in both instances, extremely hard to fake (face smashed off, guts out), so how would he have gone about killing the others? instructions to the servants, who "carried out his will"? The only games where he himself was in a position to kill anyone has been this game, and the last one: he's named as dead both times, but the bodies are not conclusive (and in this game, hasn't been found yet), so what's your thinking there? In the third game, he's mostly in the room and being watched by Natsuhi until his death, so how would you propose he moves around? Which leaves the fourth game, in which, yeah, he's got a lot of freedom, and the entire instances we've seen might be a load of hoo-ha... so do you think he was shooting people and corralled them somewhere until a break was made? Do you mind unpacking your thoughts on this a little? My theory depends on people faking their deaths, and luckily it seems that Dr. Nanjo has been pretty much confirmed to have been a collaborator in the massacre so anything he says is not reliable. Just because someone looks dead doesn't actually prove that they are dead. In the first game board, it really wouldn't have been too hard for Krauss to stuff some red painted garden hose under his jacket, and smear some blood on his face so he looked like he was disemboweled. Same with Shannon. Battler didn't get close enough to the bodies to tell. I don't actually remember the second and third games that well for when he died, but I think in the third game he was strangled? That's actually a simple death to fake. All he had to do was just draw a red line around his neck, and hold his breath when people came near. Probably killed Natsuhi for real though because Krauss is totally broken at this point. This board game is kinda hard to tell for sure whether the servants are going along with what Krauss tells them to do, or if an internal rift has formed that is more dedicated to Kinzo's will as opposed to whatever the heck Krauss is doing. Probably the latter. Either way, yeah, Krauss shot and killed a lot of people and managed to force the rest into the secret path to Kuwadorian. Maybe he forced Nanjo, Shannon, and Kanon to show him the way. Krauss is the culprit in this case. EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Mar 7, 2017 |
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Mar 7, 2017 19:44
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Fabulousvillain posted:I guess it could be like Silent Hill's bad ending. As in Ange was shot and is now bleeding out, but having hallucinations of Purgatory Sisters and Eva reviving just to be killed. That would be stupid though, Silent Hill's bad ending was stupid too. Could be. An outcome where she was shot and started bleeding out/hallucinating, Amakusa grassy knolls all the goons, and she comes to later wouldn't be hugely surprising. EagerSleeper posted:Speaking of nonmagical events, my theory for what's been going on in this board is that when the adults demanded that Krauss show that Kinzo is still alive, he couldn't so he started the massacre. It's interesting to me how Krauss and Shannon had both had their face only half covered in blood when they were shown as dead in multiple game boards, and they are the ones in the best position of murdering people. Genji is also shown with a half bloodied face too in this board but I don't know about the other ones, but he has been strongly implied to be helping out with the massacres what with his alternate form being Renove. Aren't the people with half-crushed faces more likely to be genuinely dead than those with fully crushed faces? It's difficult to come back from having your face smashed in, and as Beatrice points out at the start of this episode, if you can see half their face there's no issue with the corpse not being who they say it is. The people with fully crushed faces can at least potentially be different corpses than the people themselves, as you're stuck IDing them from their clothes rather than their faces. Unless you think they facial wounds were more minor than they implied? Which I guess is possible. Who in the cast would be good at stage make-up? Edit: EagerSleeper posted:I don't actually remember the second and third games that well for when he died, but I think in the third game he was strangled? That's actually a simple death to fake. All he had to do was just draw a red line around his neck, and hold his breath when people came near. Probably killed Natsuhi for real though because Krauss is totally broken at this point. The second's more tricky he was disembowled(?) or least had his stomach cut open in the "Happy HALLOWEEN for MARIA" scene. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Mar 7, 2017 |
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Mar 7, 2017 19:53
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CottonWolf posted:Could be. An outcome where she was shot and started bleeding out/hallucinating, Amakusa grassy knolls all the goons, and she comes to later wouldn't be hugely surprising. Yeah, just as you said, I think it was either in episode one or two that either Beatrice or Battler had suggested that half-crushed faces was more reliable as proof that a person was for sure dead, because there wouldn't be the possibility of the corpse being that of someone else. Of course, that's not definitive proof at all in favor that a person was actually dead. It could just as easily said that a half-crushed face shows that a person is still alive, just with a little blood on the face. I think when Battler says that half of the face is gorey, he doesn't know for sure if they were completely crushed or not, only that it looked like it. Battler is incompetent after all. edit: CottonWolf posted:The second's more tricky he was disembowled(?) or least had his stomach cut open in the "Happy HALLOWEEN for MARIA" scene. A garden hose painted red for intestines, and a red balloon stuffed with candy with a little cut in it for the stomach. EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Mar 7, 2017 |
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Mar 7, 2017 20:36
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Fair. Battler's incompetence is incontrovertible. When I was going back to check how Krauss died in the second game for that edit there, I just noticed that the capitalisation for the halloween scene is MARIA, not Maria. Given that MARIA is a "separate" entity to Maria. Is HALLOWEEN different to Halloween? It's impossible to know what's a red herring and what's not in this game.
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Mar 7, 2017 20:41
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EagerSleeper posted:Genji is also shown with a half bloodied face too in this board Not that the anime is necessarily correct about everything, but 
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Mar 7, 2017 21:04
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CottonWolf posted:Fair. Battler's incompetence is incontrovertible. When a name is in all-caps like that in Umineko (or in most Visual Novels, I know Mirror-Moon did the same thing in the Tsukihime and Fate/Stay Night translations) it's meant to signify that the name is written in phonetic katakana instead of kanji. This is often for Important Plot Reasons (with Umineko, MARIA and BEATRICE are meant to explicitly represent witches instead of humans), but in this case I think it's just Ryukishi writing an English loanword; Japan isn't exactly known for Halloween festivities.
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Mar 7, 2017 21:33
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A bit late, but I felt like I had to gild the lily. https://polsy.org.uk/play/yt/?vurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Ds-UJnVrzb9U
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Mar 8, 2017 00:33
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Hey, if you hadn't have done it, I would've 
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Mar 8, 2017 00:58
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So, if magic works the way it's been explained, it gives you increasing power to rewrite reality if fewer skeptics are around. You know where there are no humans disrupting your leylines? Space. I submit that if magic is legit, there might be witches more reasonable than Beatrice living on Mars. The interesting question is whether telescope observers can still collapse their waveform. Physical distance definitely seems to be a factor in magic suppression, but that might just be because Murder Mansion limits visibility between rooms.
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Mar 8, 2017 02:25
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Here's how magic works: when you're alone in your room, you can pick up a toy car in your hand and run around making it fly through the air while yelling "wooooooo, wooooooooooooooo". Then you can tell everyone else that a ghost did it.
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Mar 8, 2017 02:50
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tiistai posted:Not that the anime is necessarily correct about everything, but I appreciate how they took the time to mosaic that one tiny strip while the rest of the blood spatter is projectiled on to the behind wall. idonotlikepeas posted:A bit late, but I felt like I had to gild the lily.  Miracles do exist...
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Mar 8, 2017 07:59
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idonotlikepeas posted:A bit late, but I felt like I had to gild the lily. With love, it has been seen. 
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Mar 8, 2017 08:24
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idonotlikepeas posted:A bit late, but I felt like I had to gild the lily. This is art.
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Mar 8, 2017 12:25
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e: Nope.
Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Mar 8, 2017 |
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Mar 8, 2017 14:16
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  BGM: DirIt wasn't white. It was a gold color as bright as can be.  However, the flowers on the roses were all gold. The nectar was also gold-colored. The butterflies gathered there were gold as well. This is... the Golden Land... The promised land that the witches of Mariage Sorcière had finally been guided to... There, all wishes are granted, and all magic and dreams are born.  I appeared as an uninvited guest, making that atmosphere tremble with unrest. What was to them a wind of misfortune shook the golden roses. The incredibly beautiful scene formed by the golden rose petals scattered by the wind... was clearly something not of this world... The two who had been taking a walk on a path of golden roses noticed me and were surprised.   "...How did you get here...? Leave us alone. I shall no longer invite anyone here."Beato spoke coldly. She seemed like a completely different person from the boldly sneering woman she had once been. She had closed off her heart... and shut herself up in a world where she was alone with Maria onee-chan. A world where she could always be alone with a friendly Maria onee-chan, lecturing about magic while drinking tea. With no one to hurry them... and nothing to hold them back. A world where not a single person who might hurt them existed. Yes, to the two of them, it was a small, perfect universe...  "...Sorry. I can't have you shutting yourself up in here. We can't continue the game unless you come back." "I said I stopped because I'd tired of it. I will not return to the game again." "...Beato will always be here with me. Here, we'll drink tea together and think of lots of ways to play...! You can play with us too, Ange." "...MARIA, I believe I said that mustn't happen. I am satisfied as long as I have you alone." "Say that you too are satisfied as long as you have me." "...Yeah... Thank you. The only person who needs me that much is you, Beato. So, I'll be with you. Just us is enough." "...MARIA, thanks... I am grateful..."Beato held Maria tight, even creating a small, warm universe between their joined arms... It was probably the birth of the smallest universe in the world. The smallest universe in the world, which a pair who needed each other could give birth to... No matter how small it was, it was a complete world. ...But, I had to tear it apart...   "...Why... are you going to break... my world...? A-Are you saying that this world is causing anyone other than Maria and me trouble...?!" "You've left Onii-chan waiting all this time... in a game you started and then abandoned without finishing! If you don't return to your seat, the contest won't end for all eternity...!!" "...Hahahahaha, ha...! There is no longer a single player in that game. Battler vanished, and I did as well, coming here. That game is already over." "It isn't over! You started the game, right?!! Take responsibility and see it through to the very end! Will you defeat Battler and give birth to the world you truly wished for?! Or will you be defeated and everything swallowed up by your magic released?!! Take responsibility until the very end!!" "...Don't, Ange. Beato will spend her time in this world, alone with me for eternity. And I don't need anything else, as long as I have Beato. Here, all wishes are granted. Everything is here."...This Golden Land is made up of nothing more than the crystallization of Beatrice's and Maria onee-chan's thoughts. To drag Beato out of this world, I'm going to have to... destroy it... I will destroy this Golden Land, which must be a final, peaceful world in Beatrice's eyes...  "Onee-chan, that's wrong. This Golden Land is a liar. It won't grant the one wish you truly want granted." "...That's not true!! Anything can be granted here! Look, there's even a nice Mama here!!" After smiling sweetly at me, it became golden petals and crumbled. "Here, anything can be created. Even Ange, even Battler, even George onii-chan, even Jessica onee-chan...!!" "You can summon as many as you want, and everyone is nice...!! You come too, Ange, and let's play together...!!"...Sorry, Onee-chan...   "...!"Upon hearing Sakutarou's name, Onee-chan looked like she was choking. "Stop it... Do not speak that name..."Beato's expression changed as well. And she hugged Maria, guarding her shoulders. Sakutarou's name was still taboo for Onee-chan.  "Why can't I say it? It's the name of Maria onee-chan's best friend." "Why won't you invite that close friend to this wonderful Golden Land? Why, in this Golden Land where any wish can be granted, is Sakutarou the only one you cannot summon?" "Th-That is... It's all right, MARIA. You don't have to remember Sakutarou-" Maria onee-chan flew into a rage with a terrible expression on her face. Surprised by that voice, the butterflies throughout the garden flew up, blowing around like a typhoon of flower petals. "Yes, I know. Aunt Rosa... took your precious stuffed animal, Sakutarou, and tore him apart...!!" "Gyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!"Maria's scream became a storm that violently scattered the golden petals and leaves. It truly was a storm of gold.  "Stop...!! Stop stop stop...!!! Why are you trying to reopen the wound in MARIA's heart...?! Don't defile the sleep of this precious friend to both Maria and myself...!!" "In that case, why don't you revive that precious friend for her with your magic?" "I'd do it if I could...!! But that stuffed animal was an article Rosa created herself! The magical meaning of that individual object being torn apart is-" "Don't try to fool anyone. Why can't you revive Sakutarou? There's only one answer. It's because you aren't a real witch!" "...I can revive him...!! With my magic, I can revive him as often as I want, like this!! I could even bury this garden in Sakutarous...!!" "Yeah, I'll bet you could, with your magic! But Onee-chan definitely wouldn't be able to see the Sakutarous you create!" "...You know why, right? I'll say it again. It's because you aren't a real witch...!!" "Stop iiiiiiiiiit!! Why do you keep saying such mean things, Ange...?! Beato can use a lot of magic...! She's a wonderful witch...!! She couldn't revive just Sakutaro, but she can do absolutely anything else...!! So, I can at least... do without... Sakutaro..." "No, Onee-chan, that's wrong. There's nothing a witch can't do. As soon as she couldn't do that, it was clear that Beatrice wasn't a real witch." "Th-That's wrong...!! It's because Sakutaro's stuffed animal vessel was something Mama made specially herself, and-" "And that's why she can't revive him? Is Beatrice's... your magic so inconvenient?" "Gah, i-in that case, are you saying you can revive Sakutarou?! Are you saying you can do that with your magic?!"  "...What...?" "Maria onee-chan!! I'll show you some real magic. I'll revive Sakutarou for you!!" "...R-Really...? Even Beatrice couldn't do it, right...? R-Really...?!" "Yes, I can! In exchange, promise me. Once I've revived Sakutarou..." "Yes...!" "...Leave this Golden Land." "...!" "I-I will not permit that...!! This world is MARIA's and mine!! If MARIA leaves, it will break...!!" To drag out the witch shut away in the Golden Land, I'll have to destroy this world...! "...Yes, that's the proof that you aren't a witch. A real witch can create a universe alone." "The Mariage Sorcière Alliance of Witches! The very existence of this alliance proves that you aren't a witch...!!" "N-No...!! I won't hand MARIA over...!! I hate you, leave right now...!! Get out of heeeeeeeeeeeere!!" "Dragging everyone into a game of your own accord, then getting bored and chasing them out when your mood changes!! How selfish can you be?" "Take a look, Beatrice!! And you, Maria onee-chan!! This... is true magic...!!!" "...W-Will you really revive Sakutaro...?!" "There's no way you can!! This is a Golden Land for Maria and me alone...! There is not a single spell that an outsider like you could use! As you are now, you couldn't even create a single butterfly!!" "Be quiet, Beato!! Don't get in Ange's way...!!" BGM: None ...The scene, as a massive number of golden petals that had been blown upwards quietly drifted down, was fantastical, as though a golden snow was falling... Maria, thinking about this unlikely, if-only miracle, had unconsciously joined her hands together as though praying. Beato watched Maria do this, her heart racing. If the extremely unlikely were to happen, Maria would... this world would... But... it's unthinkable...! Absolutely impossible... That stuffed animal, which had been the only one in the world, was torn apart and thrown away, and not a thread remained. Reviving it was certainly and absolutely impossible...!!  "...I-If you think you can do it, let's see what you've got, Ushiromiya Angeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!"At Beato's scream-like cry, the world lost its sound. I slowly... recited the incantation... for true magic...  BGM: Soul of Soul   "Huh, ah, ah..." "...!"...Expressions of shock rose to both of their faces. Then, pushing Beato's elbow aside, Maria dashed forward...  Then, she clung to us both. "...It's all right. Sakutarou... isn't going to disappear..." 'Uryu. Maria, I'm home.' "Sakutaro... Sakutaro... uuuuuuuuuuuuuuu, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuu!! Sakutarooooooo, I wanted to see you... so much..."It was, without a doubt, that stuffed animal lion... Sakutarou. Its softness, its texture, its stitches, its everything, Maria had forgotten. But, the instant she hugged that stuffed animal, it all came back to her vividly...  "Sakutaro, Sakutaro...!! Is your body all right? Does it hurt anywhere? Even though... something so horrible was done to you, are you all okay...?!" 'Uryu...! Ange revived me with magic, so I'm perfectly fine...!' "Thank goodness, thank goodness... Welcome back, Sakutaro... Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!" 'From now on, I'll always be with you, Maria. Together for eternity. So, don't let go of me, okay...?' "Yeah, won't let go... for all eternity..."Then, still hugging Sakutarou, she looked up at me with tear-filled eyes...  "...Thank you, Ange...! Ange's magic is amazing... How? How can you revive Sakutarou?! When Beato couldn't do it...!" "...Impossible... Impossible..." "...How? How can a human other than me use magic in my Golden Land?!?! This is... completely impossible...!" "What are you so flustered about, Beatrice? This is... magic, right?" "There's no way it could!! That is a special stuffed animal! Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only-" "...Ah, nngg, aaah..." "Nnngg, ooh, aah, aaahhh, aaaaaaaahhh..."With this miracle that she couldn't possibly accept, Beato... understood all of my magic... She looked at Maria and Sakutarou innocently frolicking around, looked at me, and then... fell to her knees, with even her hands pressed to the ground... and cried. "Beatrice...! This really is magic, right...?! It's magic, right?! Beatrice...!!!" "...Indeed... It is magic... This is... real... magic..." "Why can Ange use a magic that even Beato couldn't?! Why?! Why?! Ange's amazing, Ange's an amazing witch! A real witch who's much, much more amazing than me...!!!" "Yeah, that's right, Onee-chan. I am the Witch of Resurrection, ANGE. There's nothing that can't be revived by me." "Amazing, incredible!! Even Beato said that the magic of resurrection was the hardest!! ANGE's incredible!! A really real Great Witch...!!!" As the two became a golden wind and swirled together, they left for some other peaceful place, not here. Beato had, as promised, banished Maria from the Golden Land. "...Goodbye, Maria onee-chan. And... be happy forever. Don't worry, you definitely exist in Onee-chan's world too. But that isn't you." "...Good for you, Maria... As your close friend... I celebrate this reunion... from the bottom of my heart..."On Beato's face... was a mixture of what was probably every expression a human could muster. It was joy, anger, and sadness.  The ground shook. An earthquake. It gradually summoned greater and greater fissures... and began to tear Beatrice's final paradise apart. Golden butterflies fluttered about, trying to escape, but there was nowhere to escape to. ...And... Beatrice was the same. The Golden Land began to crumble away. The earth crumbled downwards like a floor falling through, and Beatrice was sucked into the depths of a jet-black darkness. Then, she was mercilessly slammed against a jet-black floor.  There was no door to exit by, and while there was a window, it let no light... into Beatrice's shadowy smoking room. Even though Beato was moaning from the pain of being slammed against that cold, hard floor, she shakily rose to her feet... There was a seat there... And the game table, still just as it had been when she'd left it. The game board also remained in the same state that Beato had left it in. 
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Mar 8, 2017 14:22
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 Does this mean Ange's the player now, in Battler's- let's call it absence? Does the fact that she was able to march into Beato's house and perform magic without Beato's consent mean that her "magic"- which I am calling her grasp of the truth, for my own sanity- is stronger? And hang on a minute, Ange was able to bring back Sakutarou even though Beato declared in red that that was impossible... what does that mean about the Red Truth, that it is in fact mutable? I thought the fact that made it Red made it factually true... So if it is factually true that "magic that isn't of Beatrice can't be performed in the Golden Land", that means... what, that bringing back Sakutarou wasn't magic? Or that Sakutarou was misunderstood by Beato? Wait, Beato manahed to say "That is a special stuffed animal! Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only-" before she started choking, meaning... meaning what? That Sakuratou wasn't as unique as Rosa claimed? Did she take another stuffed animal, and just touch it up?  Is that what Ange saw in the boat shop- another Sakutarou? Or the means to make another one, which allowed her to make him anew here?Gaah, this game! Why isn't it tomorrow yet?  ProfessorProf posted:
And... and I'm not crying, by the way! I'm at work; we work with dusty documents, and it accumulates and g-gets in your eyes sometimes! A-And it's morning! And I don't have my coffee... Or my raccoon... uuuu
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Mar 8, 2017 15:14
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resurgam40 posted:And hang on a minute, Ange was able to bring back Sakutarou even though Beato declared in red that that was impossible... what does that mean about the Red Truth, that it is in fact mutable? I thought the fact that made it Red made it factually true... So if it is factually true that "magic that isn't of Beatrice can't be performed in the Golden Land", that means... what, that bringing back Sakutarou wasn't magic? Or that Sakutarou was misunderstood by Beato? Wait, Beato manahed to say "That is a special stuffed animal! Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only-" before she started choking, meaning... meaning what? That Sakuratou wasn't as unique as Rosa claimed? Did she take another stuffed animal, and just touch it up? I'm pretty sure that's the right answer. There was more than one Sakutarou. How or why, no idea, but I guess the logical suggestions are either that Rosa didn't make it in the first place, or she made two. But if there are two, who she would have made a second one for, again no idea.
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Mar 8, 2017 16:00
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You mean Rosa might have bought something from a store and then lied to her about it being homemade? Wow, that would sure be out of character for Ms. Mother of the Year. That said, I like the idea that it's a new one that Ange made herself. Beatrice is able to say that Sakutaro was made for Maria specially, but ISN'T able to say that he's unique. Maria described him pretty thoroughly in her diary, and Ange spent most of her childhood reading that thing, so she should be able to recreate the doll pretty well if she knows how to sew. I mean, right now she's probably having some weird hallucinations as a result of being shot or at least shot AT, but there might be that much grounding in reality.
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Mar 8, 2017 16:15
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With love it's easy to see that Rosa made a second one for Maria because she felt terrible about tearing apart the first. She probably just forgot it on the boat, or maybe left it as a surprise for Maria to find on the return trip.
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Mar 8, 2017 16:19
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CottonWolf posted:I'm pretty sure that's the right answer. There was more than one Sakutarou. How or why, no idea, but I guess the logical suggestions are either that Rosa didn't make it in the first place, or she made two. But if there are two, who she would have made a second one for, again no idea. My guess is that Rosa just bought a mass-produced stuffed lion for Maria. The red remains consistent - Ange's "magic" is just having another Sakutaro from a store. Beato didn't know that Rosa wasn't the doll's mother because this particular instance, as a sort of "god of the gaps" Maria used to explain why the world worked like it did, didn't know anything Maria didn't. Which makes this reunion a little bittersweet. FAKE EDIT: Sure, Sakutaro was made just for Maria - maybe the store did made-to-order?
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Mar 8, 2017 16:23
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lets hang out posted:With love it's easy to see that Rosa made a second one for Maria because she felt terrible about tearing apart the first. She probably just forgot it on the boat, or maybe left it as a surprise for Maria to find on the return trip. I going to guess this.
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Mar 8, 2017 17:15
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lets hang out posted:With love it's easy to see that Rosa made a second one for Maria because she felt terrible about tearing apart the first. She probably just forgot it on the boat, or maybe left it as a surprise for Maria to find on the return trip. If we're assuming Rosa isn't a complete monster for a bit, this is certainly possible.
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Mar 8, 2017 17:29
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Nobody in Seacats is a COMPLETE monster.
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Mar 8, 2017 18:13
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Well even if you hate her, it wouldn't be the first time she's flipped from extreme rage to extreme remorse.
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Mar 8, 2017 18:15
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Edit: Never mind, I'm misremembering events.
whitehelm fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Mar 8, 2017 |
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Mar 8, 2017 18:56
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lets hang out posted:With love it's easy to see that Rosa made a second one for Maria because she felt terrible about tearing apart the first. She probably just forgot it on the boat, or maybe left it as a surprise for Maria to find on the return trip. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well. RIP Maria. That little girl's finally at peace...
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Mar 8, 2017 19:57
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This seems to support aggressive indifference as a line of attack. If Battler refuses to believe in magic because it is politically irrelevant, he should be basically untouchable if magic is legit. Also, another easy contradiction in the red truth based on word choice. If you do a stage magic trick, you've performed "magic" that isn't Beatrice's thing. Just pull a rabbit out of a hat or tell someone to pick a card out of your hand. Break the witch's power with the eldritch might of the Chinese Linking Rings.  I wonder if Ange is going to be the main player now? It might be nice to see Beatrice's opponent point out contradictions more aggressively. Definitely looking forward to seeing where this goes!
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Mar 8, 2017 20:26
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Without angst it cannot be seen.
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Mar 8, 2017 21:02
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Magic or not, Real or Not Either way a poor little girl has just been made very happy.
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Mar 9, 2017 00:58
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I'm going to have to agree with the idea that Rosa made a second out of guilt, and only lied about destroying the pattern in her rampage. She's not a very good mother, and is supremely hosed up by her own abuse, no therapy, the realities of being a single parent to likely a neuro-divergent child in 1980s Japan, and circumstances that lead to her having Maria in the first place, but she does love her - she's just unable to break the cycle Kinzo started, or understand why she's so messed up.
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Mar 9, 2017 01:34
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 BGM: Dir Beato put a hand against her own seat... and laughed sadly. "Win or lose. That's all you've been given. A tie during the process of reaching that point will probably be permitted." "...However, you won't be allowed to suspend the game and throw it away! Will you win and survive, or lose and disappear? Until one of those two things happens, you will not be permitted to rise from that chair!! That should be your only duty as the host of a witch's game, as the Golden Witch, Beatrice...!!"Laughing weakly, Beato... sat in that seat. Then, she rested her elbows and covered her face with both hands, showing off a smile with nothing but her mouth.   "Quit being so fainthearted! Win. Use the best moves you have...!! You started this game! You have a duty to make the best moves possible!! Give all that indecisive fooling around a rest!"At that time, there was a violent sound. Beato felt a cold, pathetic sensation on her leg.  "Oh, Great Lady Lambdadelta, is it...? To think that you were still here."Beato's foot was caught in an ice-cold steel shackle, tying her to the chair she sat in. She would no longer be able to escape from this seat.  "Hoohhohhohoho! You won't be able to escape anymore, got it? I can be more persistent than I look. Surprised?" "...It's more surprising that you don't realize how persistent you look." "You are not permitted to leave early or suspend this game. You'll fight for all eternity in order to win, okay?" "...You don't want to lose, do you? You want a little peek at the kind of wonderful world you'll be thrown into if you lose?" "DON'T WORRY. You can win, because I, the Great Lady Lambdadelta, will be looking after you constantly until you win, for all eternity...!!" "...Hmph, hahahahaha. But even if I wish to fight, there is no opponent seated across from me, correct...?" "...Don't worry, I found Battler." Battler's eyes were slightly opened, but there was no sparkle in them, almost like a doll's. Without one of the pillars that established his soul, he had fallen into the depths of the depths of darkness... and had been drifting about all this time. He should have then scattered and disappeared like mist. Bernkastel had managed to scrape him together. It's incredible that she managed to bring him back into a human form. However, even though his flesh had returned, his soul had not. It had been blown away by Beatrice after having its existence denied. It wouldn't come back easily.  "...Battler won't run from this fight either. Not until he defeats you. Just because your chances of winning are shrinking doesn't mean you'll be permitted the inelegance of abandoning everything and running." "Even he doesn't want that. Isn't that right, Ushiromiya Battler...?"Battler didn't answer. His heart was still... dead. His eyes wavered slightly at the question, but he couldn't answer.  "Battler...! Get ahold of yourself! You are here. And the enemy is before your eyes...! Fight! Fight to win!!"Battler lazily repeated that, speaking incoherently. He'd come back. The wound he bore on his soul was no small thing. That was only natural. Beatrice had woven her red, and he had been denied. He had learned that the mother he'd respected was not his birth mother, and he didn't know who he was.  "Don't talk stupid! You are Ushiromiya Battler, no one else! No matter who acknowledges that or denies that, make sure you believe it yourself...!! After all, you're the only one who can create your own world. Don't lose the world where you're Ushiromiya Battler!" "...Then, who... am I...? I'm not my mom's child, right...? Where was I born from...?"Battler asked that question as his eyes, which still hadn't regained their sparkle, stared lazily up at the ceiling. Of course, she answered right away.  "Yes, that's right. Beato proclaimed it with the red truth. So I'll proclaim it too. Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son." "...Hmph, in that case, he is not qualified to be the opponent in my game, correct...?"  "..."As Beato wrinkled her forehead, a painful-looking smile rose to her face. "So you refuse to repeat it. Beato proclaimed two red truths, 'Battler is not Asumu's son' and 'No one except Kinzo's grandchild Battler is qualified to be her opponent'." "The following theory will allow Battler to be accepted without creating any contradictions. Here's my blue truth, listen to it...!"   "Hmph, it was just a silly word game, wasn't it?" "...Your blue truth is valid. Beato, your counterargument with the red truth? If you cannot counter it with the red, Battler's qualifications as an opponent will stand unchallenged." "..."...Battler was still out of it. He still couldn't really understand what she was saying for him. But even so, his spirit was starting to come back, bit by bit...   "Get ahold of yourself! You are Ushiromiya Battler! Yeah, maybe Mother Asumu didn't give birth to you. But so what?! That doesn't change in the slightest the fact that she was a mother to you, right?!" "...For example, what is Ushiromiya Ange to you? You might not share the same blood, but she's still your little sister, right?! It's not about blood, it's about bonds, right?!" "...That's... right... Even though we don't share the same blood, Ange is... my little sister." "Say it in red! Say that Ange is your little sister!!" She hugged Battler, who was still out of it and slumped in his chair, strongly from behind. So much that it hurt. "I don't know why Mother Asumu wasn't your birth mother. But still, up until today and even now, you believe that she's your mother, right?! In this world, there are plenty of people without even a mother, without even a family!!" "Did Mother Asumu ever let you feel lonely? Never, right?! Don't throw your peaceful family away so easily!! Your family bonds have gotten too thin after leaving your family for six years!!" "You have to feel those family bonds much, much more strongly! Remember!! For Mother Asumu's sake as well, don't lose your love over a foolish witch's rant like this!" "...You're right... Mom was... always on my side..." "...Where is this place...? It's dark, and I wanna go home... Where's... all my... family...?"The light still hadn't returned to Battler's eyes. But... tears appeared. "Your little sister is waiting at home for you to come back. If even you don't come back, she'll be all alone forever...! For your little sister's sake, please, win this witch's game...!!" "In that case, settle this game quickly and go back home!! Ushiromiya Battler, how long are you going to play around in a place like this?! Your little sister is waiting for you to come home!!!"...That's right. Battler had been caught up in this strange game before he even knew it. And, still unable to understand why he was fighting, he had been constantly sucked into the witch's pace, played with and made to fight. That should've been his most simple and first question. Because he didn't understand that, he had lost his purpose in fighting...!! That's why my voice won't reach Battler's ears...! Instead of a vague purpose, like winning against the witch, or because he couldn't forgive her... He has to be aware of a purpose for which he must win. "...That's right... I want to go home... I want to go home to Dad and Mom... and Ange... I've had enough... enough of this place... I've had enough of witches, I've had enough of games and murders... enough, enough..." "Battler's soul... is starting to come back." "...But it can't quite reach." "You've had enough, right?! Then fight so that you can return to your family!! Destroy Beatrice and go home!!" "No, I've had enough of witches...! Enough of Beato, enough of everything, and even you're probably just another one of the witch's allies... I could be betrayed again at any time...!!" Video: SacrificeBattler's soul howled. She hugged his head from behind, strong enough that it hurt.   "...Huh...? Who... are you...?" "It's me, it's Ange...!! Dad and Mom and Onii-chan...no one came home!! I'm so lonely!! I beg you, come home quickly!" "...A-Ange... You were... Ange...?" "That's right, I'm Ange!! The Ushiromiya Ange of a world where no one comes home...!! My entire family... never came home from Rokkenjima that day...!! The witch before your eyes stole away my whole family, even you, Onii-chan...! Only you can finish her, Onii-chan!! Finish her...!! Then, take your family back!! And then, come home to me...!!!" "...Beato did that... to my family...?" "...Hmph, as she says. I will not run away or hide from it. I stole Ushiromiya Ange's family away from her."  From Ange's arms that held him, the painful, sad days... that had been experienced by his lonely little sister... flowed into Battler... Because he'd been playing around in a place like this, his little sister had been left all by herself, had been forced to endure... all that pain...!!  "...Ange, Ange...!! drat, I... what am I doing...?!! Thanks, Ange... Your Onii-chan... has been forgetting something important this whole time...!"Battler tried to turn around, but Ange was hanging onto his head with an incredible force, so he couldn't turn back. Was it sweat? Hot drops were splashing on the nape of Battler's neck. ...What they were...he knew from holding Ange's arm that clung to him. Because it stained Battler's hand, his fingers, red.  It dripped and splashed. He didn't know what was going on. Battler didn't know, because he couldn't turn around, but the hot drops that stained his entire back were surely... blood.  ...It was so hard... Even though Onii-chan was right before my eyes, I couldn't even say that... As long as I followed this rule, I should've been able to stay by Onii-chan's side for all eternity. I should've been able... to play in the game against the witch... for eternity with Onii-chan... "But... that's no good. Onii...nnn...chan, you have to come back... Your sister's waiting for you... at home... That person isn't me, but this way, your sister... will be saved..." "Ange?! Ange!! There's so much blood...!! So much, so much!!"He wanted to turn around, but Ange was gripping his head too tightly. However, judging by the blood that was pouring out and Ange's pained breathing, he realized that something seriously wrong was happening to her right now.   "Sacri... what?! Who cares about chess?!! Let's get you some first-aid quickly!! Let go for a second, Ange...!!" "...A <sacrifice>... is an abandoned piece. For a tactical gain, you intentionally accept a loss and let a piece go..."In chess, the ultimate goal is victory. So, if it can bring you to victory in the end, there's nothing wrong with sacrificing a few individual pieces. Ange had cooly made a decision. She had been taught over and over again that she was a piece, not a player. In order to act like a piece and save Battler, right now, she would have to become a sacrificial piece herself. ...Battler had to know. His purpose in this witch's game couldn't be something as abstract as finishing off the witch. He had to win the game, release himself, and bring his family back home. Why? Because he had family, a little sister, who was waiting for him to come home. A being was created so that Ushiromiya Ange's voice could reach you.  I'll sacrifice the piece I am to give to you the will to fight, to give you purpose! My purpose isn't to play with you in a witch's game for all eternity! I came to bring you Ushiromiya Ange's mourning and sadness! That is my unshakable purpose! "...Ange!! Ange!! Aaaaaaaaaarrrghhh!!!"The white, thin arm that held Battler... became pale and transparent, almost like wax. And even so, the fresh blood... stained it so cruelly... "...I will... disappear now, but... Onii-chan, fight with all you've got, and I'm sure, you'll... come back to me... I'll be waiting... always... I'd planned on helping you out a lot more than this... but I couldn't do anything... Sorry..." "D-Don't worry about that...!! You... taught me, didn't you...?! You taught me why I have to win...! And that... I've got to win for certain... and come back to you...!!" "What... am I doing, lazing about in a place like this...?!! Yeah, I won't play around anymore...!! 'Cause I'll come back, I'll come home!! I'll definitely come home, bringing a souvenir, I promise...!!!" "...I don't need one, so promise me one thing..." "What? I'll promise anything...!!" "...In a second, I'm going to let go of this hand... It hurt, didn't it...? Sorry... I held it so tightly..." Ange's hand... slid... and disappeared behind me. There were bloody fingerprints left behind, blurred by her fingernails... But I turned around right away. To take care of Ange's wounds...!  BGM: None  "Ah, crap, and you even promised that you wouldn't turn around..." "...A-Ange... Nnn... wh-where..." And around that mountain of blood and minced meat, the clothes and shoes Ange had been wearing... lay crumpled as though they'd been taken off and thrown away... As though... just a human's insides had been pulverized and tossed there like scrap. As though Ange, who had been standing there until a second ago, had been crushed...  "Ange...?" "...Wh-Where's Ange...? Where did Ange disappear to...?" "H-Hey! Where did Ange go?!"The two young-looking witches said nothing... and just silently looked at the mountain of blood and meat and clothes. But... I didn't want to accept it. I definitely didn't want to accept it!!!  BGM: Golden Slaughterer "...D-Do you know...? Where... did Ange go...?" "...While she still lived, pinch by pinch, massive, red-hot pincers... tore chunks of flesh the size of a thumb off her... and threw them away. I was watching. I saw as countless cruel tools, burned red-hot in the witch's furnace, approached Ange from behind, and one bit at a time, pecked at her, twisted her, ripped chunks off her, and tore her to pieces." "...Ange should be proud. In order to share some last words with her brother, she stopped herself from gasping at that pain until the very end..."...As if something like that could have happened... But... on top of that mountain of flesh and clothes, what had fallen there... was without a doubt, what she had been wearing on her head, those pink-jeweled... hair ornaments. To be honest, I'd thought they were a bit too childish for her and didn't suit her... So I remembered them well. ...Why did Ange wear such cheap hair ornaments all the time...? No, no, the thought that this is Ange... couldn't possibly be... uu, uuuuuuuuuu...! "...You're pretty blunt, Beato." "Battler didn't see it, so you could've just said she turned into butterflies and flew away, or something." "Y-You saw... Ange... get torn into little bits...? You were watching, and yet, you stayed... so calm the whole time...?!"Without answering, Bernkastel, Lambdadelta, and Beatrice stared at me, some in pity, others in derision, watching me... Since she'd called herself Gretel, and after what had happened with Virgilia in the last game, I'd thought she might be Beato's underling, and I'd been wary of her, not trusting her even though she was an ally... And now, after learning that it truly was Ange, without even being allowed to see her face, I turn around... and find... something... like this... ...Aaaaaaaggghhh...!  "...What... did you say...?" "After all, you'll never return from this place for all eternity anyway." "Whatever happens to your little sister in a world where you don't come home has nothing to do with you. As long as you play here, the Anges of countless worlds will live in isolation, and the same pain of her final moments just now will be forced upon her, spread over a period of more than a decade." "...However, that is of no importance, correct? It cannot be 'seen' by you from here. You cannot observe it. An unobservable fact cannot be proven except by the red truth." "Therefore, your anxiety over Ange's misfortune after this may be needless. She might, surprisingly, be able to live a casual life without ever having to work thanks to Rudolf's inheritance, right? *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*...!"...That's... a lie. From Ange's arm, every part of that sad future world had poured into me in an instant. All because... I keep on... lazing about forever... and playing in a place like this...!! I... never thought about anyone but myself... I must defeat her! I'll take back my family, back to where Ange's waiting, and come home as soon as I can...! Because even as I hang around with the witch like this, Ange's heart continues to be torn to bits by sadness...!!  "...Ange, is this... what you wanted to see...?"...I turned towards the cruel witch who had indifferently spoken of Ange's brutal last moments, and slowly, yet with all my might... pointed...  "...Beatrice..." "Indeed." BGM: Endless Nine "Bring it on. I can no longer escape or hide." "...Let us decide this between you and me for good." "...One shall win. One shall lose and be destroyed. No other resolution can exist." "...I'll win. No matter how long it takes, I'll definitely smash you...!!" "There aren't gonna be any more compromises, interruptions or losses by default in this contest!! I won't run away! I won't let you get away!!" "Try and defeat me with everything you've got...!! There's absolutely no need for stupid tricks and deceit, for intermingling and acting friendly!! You and I are enemies...!!! I have to settle this as soon as possible...and bring my family back to Ange!!!"...Unwavering resolve. Certain willpower. The certain willpower of a Human becomes certain magical power. That leads to a miracle... and promises that it shall be so. Yes, this is a promised, certain miracle.  Before I knew it, a cold, stiff chain had bound my other leg without a sound, tying me to the chair... All that's left is to either be killed and lose to Battler... or resist and continue in an endless tie for all eternity. Or perhaps I should say it's to continue tying until I've prepared my heart for death. Either way, I... Must fight to lose, and nothing more. I have already been bound by the chains of eternity. And Battler won't let me escape either. Should I pathetically beg his forgiveness...? Should I beg for compassion by appealing to his pitying heart...? Should I forget appearances and prostrate myself? Because of the chains, even that choice will not be granted me. ...Checkmate. This is a perfect stranglehold. ...However.  The demon lord of gold who reigns in the Golden Land. Even in a fight to lose, there is an attitude fitting for me. And I have the right to adorn my death in a manner suited to me. "...I am no different. I'll make you accept the existence of my magic, and the door to the Golden Land will open on this island. You shall become the guest of honor at that first tea party." "Everyone besides you has gathered already, you see? Because the honored guest's arrival has been delayed, the tea party cannot begin. Your father, mother, cousins and everyone else are getting tired of waiting for your arrival." "Sure, that's perfect, that's just perfect!! What the hell is magic, what the hell are witches...?!! I'm done playing with you!! Here we go, Beatrice...!!!" "Come as hard as you can, for there will be no compromise, interruptions or losing by default. One shall win, and one shall be destroyed."" If you have no desire to lose, then you must defeat me, kill me. However, I won't be killed so easily. Until you can prepare a fitting end for me, I can resist over and over again." "Can you do that? No, you probably can. You surely can. Come on, come and kill me." "...Is it that hard? Then let's go with the usual..."   "Hoh, that's a good look on your face! *cackle*cackle*cackle* Uhhyahhahahahahaha, *giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*!!"   
Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 14:25
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Best I can do (guesses in brackets): Please kill me quickly. Try to stop m[e]. If only you had never come [back.] I wish I had never been born. Why am [I] unable to love any[one?] Please, I don't [care] what conclusion [you come to] just kill me and [bring] my story to an [end.] If you won't do that, You di[e] instead.
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Mar 9, 2017 15:20
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| # ? May 11, 2024 19:40 |
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EXPERIMENT Glowing 1000 degree PINCERS vs MINCE MEAT
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Mar 9, 2017 15:27
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