|
Asehujiko posted:Blind guess: People who believe that FOREIGNERS OUT and also that woman belong in the kitchen, not the government. More likely Jean-Marie or Marion Le Pen flavour FN voters. That is to say, FN voters that belong to the actually openly fascist far-right that Marine Le Pen has been trying to disassociate with.
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 01:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 23:25 |
|
|
Dutch youths love them a bit of far right politics. https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/839400534289285120
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 10:03
|
|
|
LemonDrizzle posted:Dutch youths love them a bit of far right politics. I recall seeing a video about how French youth are flocking to FN. I don't think it's all that surprising. Young people are idealistic and the most extreme solutions will be the most appealing. I wonder if there is a Dutch college professor shaking their head at this and saying "if only they were properly educated...." (there was French professor in the video I mentioned just now saying that)
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 10:23
|
|
|
The fact that "I don't know" also jumped from 10% to 21%and the growth of voting of minor communicates that the Dutch Youth have pretty much lost faith in mainstream politics. I think the most interesting collapse seem to be the SP and the CDA (11% to 1%). Only 41% seem interested in supporting "old guard parties" at this point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 10:40
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Dutch college professor shaking their head at this and saying "if only they were properly educated...." Probably, but at the same time they would vote VVD and thus continue happily slashing into education and student financial loans.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 10:58
|
|
|
Namarrgon posted:Probably, but at the same time they would vote VVD and thus continue happily slashing into education and student financial loans. 2014 total student loan debt; 8.6 billion. 2016 total student loan debt; 17.9 billion. What happened? Liberalism. Honestly these numbers are suspect as well. I took part in the questionnaire on student loans and you could literally not fill in a larger number than €30k. As in it would give an error and tell you the max number allowed was 30k. So take this with a mountain of salt if you will.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 11:02
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:I recall seeing a video about how French youth are flocking to FN. I don't think it's all that surprising. Young people are idealistic and the most extreme solutions will be the most appealing. There's a contrast between the French and Dutch trend though; in France the younger voters are still less likely to vote right wing than older voters but have abandoned the conventional centre-right for the FN, whereas that poll suggests that young voters in the Netherlands have abandoned the centre-left in favour of the PVV. Which is a much more worrying trend imo. The only hope is that because the PVV is a one man show that it spectacularly blows up at some point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 11:05
|
|
|
Because our media is poo poo they continue to claim that the PVV is 'critical' of foreigners, but with left-wing attitudes towards subjects like social security and retirement age and such (our prime minister, in an effort to lure its voters, claimed that the PVV is more left-wing than the socialist party  ), but nobody bothers checking how they actually vote in parliament. Because there it shows they are just another right-wing party, duly following the line of the conservatives, from which Wilders split to form the PVV. I would not be surprised if at least a part of the young people wanting to vote PVV think Wilders will help them by protecting jobs and improving social security and such, kinda like how people fell for Trump. Its just another example of our left-wing parties failing to have a story that people can believe, so they move towards the PVV.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 11:57
|
|
|
quote:The only hope is that because the PVV is a one man show that it spectacularly blows up at some point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 12:04
|
|
|
9-Volt Assault posted:Because our media is poo poo they continue to claim that the PVV is 'critical' of foreigners, but with left-wing attitudes towards subjects like social security and retirement age and such (our prime minister, in an effort to lure its voters, claimed that the PVV is more left-wing than the socialist party I think this is what's happening with Le Pen as well. Take the PS, for instance. You voted for Hamon to get rid of Valls and his neoliberal poo poo? Joke's on you, Valls' people are still getting in by threatening to defect to Emmanuel Macron. I'm talking about myself, but this doesn't even come as a surprise. For a lot of people, the socialists simply have no credibility because of the baggage from Hollande's and Valls' time in power. Le Pen has no such problem since A) she was never in power and B) she (and her people) never get called out on their lies during TV interviews. I think the second thing is a huge part of her success.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 12:14
|
|
|
9-Volt Assault posted:Because our media is poo poo they continue to claim that the PVV is 'critical' of foreigners, but with left-wing attitudes towards subjects like social security and retirement age and such (our prime minister, in an effort to lure its voters, claimed that the PVV is more left-wing than the socialist party Well then start playing the part that the media isn't playing. Create a facebook, twitter, some poo poo and put in there all the votes they placed and align them with ideology. You're not the only one thinking like that, believe me. It's the inertia that screws most democracies. These times, if we don't start moving, we're gonna get hosed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 12:15
|
|
|
Yeah, at this point far-right movements are larger than their charismatic leaders and while a party can meltdown, the anger that created them in the first place isn't likely to dissipate. Young Dutch people seem to be looking to anyone that will sell them some type of message to believe in.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 12:16
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Yeah, at this point far-right movements are larger than their charismatic leaders
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 12:18
|
|
|
jBrereton posted:You say that, but UKIP absolutely collapses any time someone other than Farage is visibly in charge. Yeah, you missed the rest of that sentence. A movement is more than a party, and while a party can meltdown, the anger that put them into power will not. In the case of the UK, UKIP was undermined by the fact that the Tories moved into their direction and became a full-throated supporter of Brexit. To be honest, I don't think Farage was really that much of a factor compared to Brexit itself (and to be honest the same goes for Corbyn).
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 12:29
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Yeah, you missed the rest of that sentence. A movement is more than a party, and while a party can meltdown, the anger that put them into power will not. In the case of the UK, UKIP was undermined by the fact that the Tories moved into their direction and became a full-throated supporter of Brexit. To some extent the Tories ate their lunch, but Paul Nuttall is very uninspiring and when your only communication from the former leader after the disastrous (for UKIP) byelection in Stoke is "gently caress that one MP we have" the wheels start to come off.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 12:33
|
|
|
9-Volt Assault posted:I would not be surprised if at least a part of the young people wanting to vote PVV think Wilders will help them by protecting jobs and improving social security and such, kinda like how people fell for Trump. Its just another example of our left-wing parties failing to have a story that people can believe, so they move towards the PVV. Confession, when I was a strapping young lad and during my first election cycle I did exactly this. I assumed all of their racist things would obviously fail and we'd be 'stuck' with the left-wing talking points. Now I know better and vote die-hard socialist. So what I'm saying is increase the voting age.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 12:58
|
|
|
Namarrgon posted:
It needs a maximum voting age too. If the only people allowed to vote were between the ages of 25-65 we'd have far more reasonable politics in pretty much every country. The 65s+ are reliably "gently caress you, got mine" in nearly every country.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 13:25
|
|
|
Blut posted:It needs a maximum voting age too. If the only people allowed to vote were between the ages of 25-65 we'd have far more reasonable politics in pretty much every country. The 65s+ are reliably "gently caress you, got mine" in nearly every country. Which has very little to do with age at all and everything to do with the political climate of when they came of age. But in general you probably shouldn't support democracy if you think only people who agree with you should be able to vote, that's kinda stupid isn't it. Namarrgon posted:Confession, when I was a strapping young lad and during my first election cycle I did exactly this. I assumed all of their racist things would obviously fail and we'd be 'stuck' with the left-wing talking points. Now I know better and vote die-hard socialist. So you went from one stupid extreme to the other, not really a surprise I suppose that's pretty common. YF-23 posted:No, it's not "the general term". There's a reason people ever used "PIGS" and not "GISP" or whatever, and that was to demonise southern Europeans as lazy people who live off the northern states' generosity. Do not perpetuate that. Keep on keeping on yf dash 23
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 13:51
|
|
|
TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:So you went from one stupid extreme to the other, not really a surprise I suppose that's pretty common. While I know you are either trolling or have an opinion that is indistinguishable from trolling, I actually have strong reservations against the Dutch Socialist Party. It has no government experience and often enough seems like a very cliquish affair. However, they are clearly true believers; the ruling SP elite (members of parliament) actually contribute their salary fully to the party and receive the equivalent of a median wage in return. This is the kind of dedication to ideology I think is extremely rare in politics, and at the very least shows their heart and intentions are in the right place.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 14:12
|
|
|
Namarrgon posted:While I know you are either trolling or have an opinion that is indistinguishable from trolling, I actually have strong reservations against the Dutch Socialist Party. It has no government experience and often enough seems like a very cliquish affair. However, they are clearly true believers; the ruling SP elite (members of parliament) actually contribute their salary fully to the party and receive the equivalent of a median wage in return. This is the kind of dedication to ideology I think is extremely rare in politics, and at the very least shows their heart and intentions are in the right place. Something Jeremy Corbyn should do in the UK TBF. Would be a good deflection from his tax issues as well. But then he's probably not the type, despite how he's portrayed in the media.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 15:44
|
|
|
Namarrgon posted:While I know you are either trolling or have an opinion that is indistinguishable from trolling, I actually have strong reservations against the Dutch Socialist Party. It has no government experience and often enough seems like a very cliquish affair. However, they are clearly true believers; the ruling SP elite (members of parliament) actually contribute their salary fully to the party and receive the equivalent of a median wage in return. This is the kind of dedication to ideology I think is extremely rare in politics, and at the very least shows their heart and intentions are in the right place. Yet at the same time, the daughter of the party figurehead is being groomed for a senior leadership position. A true meritocracy indeed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 16:02
|
|
|
TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Which has very little to do with age at all and everything to do with the political climate of when they came of age. But in general you probably shouldn't support democracy if you think only people who agree with you should be able to vote, that's kinda stupid isn't it. I don't mind if someone has different political opinions to me, I do mind if their mental faculties are not 100%. Age limitations would help with that. See for example the over 65s voting record on Brexit. Lots of senile OAPs there no doubt.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 16:53
|
|
|
Truga posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/06/world/europe/european-union-nuclear-weapons.html Unironically a good idea. If there have to be nukes in Europe, they should protect the whole continent and be infrastructure funded by the whole continent. Next we should pool the scattered one-off aircraft carriers around the Med into a common EU expeditionary task force so that at least one will always be available to
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 17:31
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
OperaMouse posted:Yet at the same time, the daughter of the party figurehead is being groomed for a senior leadership position. A true meritocracy indeed. Oh yeah for sure, this has not escaped me. She is #3 on the list, so practically guaranteed a seat in parliament. On the other hand, as long as she also dumps her income in the party pot this is still better than the liberals.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 17:35
|
|
|
Blut posted:I don't mind if someone has different political opinions to me, I do mind if their mental faculties are not 100%. Age limitations would help with that. The 15-25 group is defined as having a vote weight of 1. Their life expectancy is 82 years in the UK. The 65-75 group has a life expectancy of 86 years. This gives us a vote weight of (86-70)/(82-20) = 0.26 for this group. That is specifically for referendums, where the outcome has an essentially lifelong effect on the people affected. Other kinds of votes, such as elections, could limit the value of the denominator to some other value, such as perhaps 30 years, with vote weight not able to go beyond 1. In the 30 years example, the 65-75 group would have a vote weight of (86-70)/30 = 0.53. This takes into account that they're less likely to suffer from politicians wrecking poo poo long term (due to dying), while still acknowledging that they have an interest in things not getting hosed up short term either.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 17:36
|
|
|
All of this assumes people 100% dgaf outside of themselves
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 17:42
|
|
|
I would unironically be entirely in favour of this system. Its a good system. Though probably better with a minimum voting age of 21 instead of 15.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 17:52
|
|
|
Blut posted:I would unironically be entirely in favour of this system. Its a good system. Though probably better with a minimum voting age of 21 instead of 15.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 18:42
|
|
|
Toplowtech posted:It requires the state to know who vote for what to weight the vote which is kinda a big no no if you ask me. Not at all. Just have a unique voting card for each age group. So when you show your ID on the way into a voting booth everyone aged 65+ gets a green one, everyone aged 25-35 a blue one etc. Still completely anonymous, and very easy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 18:51
|
|
|
I assume you're trying to think of a system that would prevent another Brexit situation, but in the system you describe it isn't hard to imagine a non-racist anti-liberal party getting the youth to vote for leaving the EU, just look at anti-austerity parties like Syriza and Podemos that are very popular with the youth. More generally, it wouldn't fix representative democracy since the media and politicians would target the youth instead. In France for example, just look at Macron: he basically is the embodiment of neoliberalism embracing progressive social views to appeal to younger voters, and according to the polls the second round would still be him against Le Pen without older voters (30-35% for Le Pen and 24% for Macron among voters younger than 35.) If voters are idiots and politicians wreck poo poo on purpose, no amount of reform or tinkering with the numbers will change anything.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 18:52
|
|
|
Blut posted:I would unironically be entirely in favour of this system. Its a good system. Though probably better with a minimum voting age of 21 instead of 15. unpacked robinhood posted:All of this assumes people 100% dgaf outside of themselves x420ReDdIT_Br0nYx posted:I assume you're trying to think of a system that would prevent another Brexit situation, but in the system you describe it isn't hard to imagine a non-racist anti-liberal party getting the youth to vote for leaving the EU, just look at anti-austerity parties like Syriza and Podemos that are very popular with the youth.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 19:02
|
|
|
OperaMouse posted:Yet at the same time, the daughter of the party figurehead is being groomed for a senior leadership position. A true meritocracy indeed. I dont care much for the SP, but i dont think think this is really right. She has spend a lot of years in a local council, works for a union and has been politically active for a long time. Its not that strange that someone like that someday can be found on the candidate list for parliament. In fact, its completely normal, see this article from De Groene Amsterdammer about how political parties pretty much exclusively pick people from within to put on the candidate list. Now if she was just 18, hadn't done poo poo yet and was placed on the no. 3 spot, you might have a point, but that isnt the case.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 19:15
|
|
|
The gently caress? We already have several underclasses we dont need a method to cre ate even more through weighted voting.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 19:42
|
|
|
The solution is to liquidate the olds into soylent, FYI
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 19:50
|
|
|
ChainsawCharlie posted:The gently caress? We already have several underclasses we dont need a method to cre ate even more through weighted voting. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Mar 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 20:13
|
|
|
Breaking the principle of one man-one vote sets a dangerous precedent. Even if your heart is in the right place, that's the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 20:20
|
|
|
So you're saying, the real problem is people dying too soon? If everyone had to live a 1000 or more years, only a tiny fraction of their lifetime could be exploited away like that? gently caress different voting weights, time to implement mandatory cyborgenization of people's brains at birth and immortalize (or as close as possible) them. Problem solved. They're saying we're less than 100 years away from that happening anyway, so probably within our lifetimes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 20:20
|
|
|
Truga posted:So you're saying, the real problem is people dying too soon? If everyone had to live a 1000 or more years, only a tiny fraction of their lifetime could be exploited away like that? Unironically this, I'd love to have a cyborg brain. Shame there's no way we'll get one before we die though, you're being far too optimistic. Even leaving aside how crap ours will be at that point and that we'd be too poor for that, that prediction of 100 years is about as bullshit as all the AI and fusion power predictions (and accurate protein folding, too), there's no way anyone has any idea how long it'll be. Might as well predict FTL travel in 250 years. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Mar 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 20:29
|
|
|
Should we process old people into Soylent Green? Since the affected old people would only live a couple of days till processing and the young would have to actually eat them and deal with the gastrointestinal aftereffects, the olds should only get a 1/(100-exp(5)) voting multiplier ....Beep ... Booop
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 20:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 23:25 |
|
|
YF-23 posted:Breaking the principle of one man-one vote sets a dangerous precedent. Even if your heart is in the right place, that's the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Private Speech posted:Unironically this, I'd love to have a cyborg brain. Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Should we process old people into Soylent Green? Since the affected old people would only live a couple of days till processing and the young would have to actually eat them and deal with the gastrointestinal aftereffects, the olds should only get a 1/(100-exp(5)) voting multiplier ....Beep ... Booop
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2017 20:33
|
|