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how are people getting that whirlwind does more damage than tabbing even with only one enemy around? isn't it the same damage, but taking 1.0 auts instead of 0.7?
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Mar 8, 2017 21:20
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cheetah7071 posted:how are people getting that whirlwind does more damage than tabbing even with only one enemy around? isn't it the same damage, but taking 1.0 auts instead of 0.7? It does as many attacks as it can fit into your movement with I think logic in there to prevent 0.7 from ever getting a second attack..
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Mar 8, 2017 21:23
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Here's a suggestion for WJC: perhaps, as a martial council, they give you some manner of bonus towards using a variety of weapons, like, say, enhanced cross-training?
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Mar 8, 2017 21:46
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Cerepol posted:It does as many attacks as it can fit into your movement with I think logic in there to prevent 0.7 from ever getting a second attack.. I have to say I think more and more that the slow on regular whirlwind isn't a good idea. Slowing during serpent strikes or heavenly clouds would be okay but otherwise I really don't like it. It's a boring way to set up lunges (wait for slow proc, run away for 3~ steps) and the god really really doesn't need more ways to run away from monsters. I'd like to hear what the justification behind slow on whirlwind is and why it's apparently so crucial to the god decision.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:12
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WCJ is a lot of fun and I don`t know how it can go in. The god steps on the toes of DIthmenos to a huge degree, both offensively and defensively, and possesses the best diety-based escape options in the game. With WCJ, you can avoid most situations that would cause to you think `I need to banish/step from time myself` and piety-free with wall jump alone. There are so many things you can do to support stabbing/stealth (PF does not agree with me here, so I`m glad to see dpeg`s assessment of stabbing with Jian) and ranged before even taking a look at pure melee. There are so many cool things you can do with this god that highlight the problematic nature of instant attacks and instant movement. More impresively, even Jian ability with an exception of whirlwind perhaps has both offensive and defensive applications. Here are the pure ownage things I`m doing with the god: Dig lunging, Dig whirlwind, jianping (chaining 3+ jian walljumps, see gif below for a lot of these) serpent lash digging, serpent lash to up/down stairs, serpent lash out of bad nets/webs, serpent lash dodge OODs (this can be done with walljump under the right circumstances), serpent lash to avoid ranged los, serpent lash to get out of basically anything and everything at any time. Blow heaven on earth defensively, lash to a wall, walljump away. a common setup with fomo^jian:  Defensive use: rapid escape from anything  Offensive use: Isolate enemies in an environment where you can spam walljump Formicids have some unique advantages with this god. Digging is an activated instant just like Serpent Lash that slows the player to 1.2 speed movement and, as it is a movement ability, carries all the benefits the player has available at their piety level with Jian. Than means you can dig and lunge and whirlwind and stab at the same time if the conditions are right. Here I am serpent lash dig lunge stabbing an unaware skeleton warrior. Watch the turn count:  I mentioned ranged earlier. Walljumping affords extra movement, meaning more ranged attacks. In this example I only have 5 crossbow skill and am being pursued by a fast enemy. Imagine 20 skill against normal speed enemies, because I`m done making gifs:  My opinion: Fun god that is too good at too much. Not sure how to change. Placing restrictions on walljump like `you have to land next to an enemy` is a silly idea and would render this 2* into a boring, perhaps useless ability that demands people kite to a 3-tile-wide corridor or be forced into formicid to create these conditions everywhere.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:14
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Alright, recommendation time. +9 dire flail {pain, rN+ Int+6} OR +8 mithril axe "Arga" {speed, MR+} M&F at 15.9, Axes at 14, Nec at 6 FulsomFrank fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Mar 8, 2017 |
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Mar 8, 2017 22:42
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Arga arga arga arga arga arga arga
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Mar 8, 2017 22:49
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"WCJ is a lot of fun and I don`t know how it can go in" is a really depressing line to read, this is sounding like singularity all over again  I also did some kind of Formicid tabber of WJC and the god basically nullifies the race's limitations but it's also really fun. As far as changes go, I'd hate to see walljump restrictions since the lack of said restrictions (besides having a wall and some space) is a big part of what makes it fun to use IMO. IDK what would be a good place to start to make the god less broken, though. IIRC the creator intended the god to be used more as part of a "glass cannon" kinda thing, maybe you could have WJC's abilities improve with lower ER? Doesn't seem like the kinda thing that'd be hard to convey to the player and that could open up more possibilities without imposing extra conditions and stuff.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:54
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I`m gonna keep making & posting gifs Formicid digging / walljump / lunge synergy:  Dig / whirlwind / lash:  0 piety escape from fast monster: 
parthenocarpy fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 8, 2017 23:20
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apple posted:"WCJ is a lot of fun and I don`t know how it can go in" is a really depressing line to read, this is sounding like singularity all over again Yeah, it would be pretty much the end of the world if Crawl got something fun but slightly overpowered. I can see why its such a concern.
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Mar 9, 2017 01:51
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Please quote this when the god considered almost universally as fun as hell is removed in favour of balance in a game that has "challenge species" to make it harder and thus unbalanced
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Mar 9, 2017 03:22
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For WJC, you could change the wall-jump into a wall-jump-into-kick, requiring the tile you are jumping into from the wall to be occupied by an enemy. Push back the target enemy and take the space; maybe a chance to stun/paralyze/confuse/whatever the target enemy for a turn or two and confuse surrounding enemies like it currently does. That would turn it into more of a positioning/combo move than a 0 piety escape tool. I do worry, however, that it would then become optimal play to drag all enemies over to a wall to set up kicks constantly for the start of a fight, so maybe make it all about the status effect/repositioning and have it do no/minimal damage but a high chance of applying status effects..
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Mar 9, 2017 04:17
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parthenocarpy posted:WCJ is a lot of fun and I don`t know how it can go in. The god steps on the toes of DIthmenos to a huge degree, both offensively and defensively, and possesses the best diety-based escape options in the game. With WCJ, you can avoid most situations that would cause to you think `I need to banish/step from time myself` and piety-free with wall jump alone. Maybe some other limitation? Your body is a temple, you may only eat bread and honey and/or no potions Or Monks may wear armour no heavier than robes to perform martial abilities.
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Mar 9, 2017 04:19
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I like the idea of a low encumbrance requirement for dudes that are jumping and spinning all over.
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Mar 9, 2017 04:24
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e: Really though I think this adherence to martial abilities requiring special effects is harming the god. All of them could lose their special properties and just be 100% damage attacks and the god would still be really strong and you would still use martial attacks over tab like 80%+ of the time. Darox fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 04:26
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Not sure why y'all are wasting so much time discussing this god sincetote up a bags posted:Please quote this when the god considered almost universally as fun as hell is removed in favour of balance in a game that has "challenge species" to make it harder and thus unbalanced
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Mar 9, 2017 04:59
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They need to keep Wu Jian so that, in the year 2050 when the devs break down and finally add an option to have two gods, I can play a Wu Jian Uskayaw ant.
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Mar 9, 2017 05:09
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jon joe posted:They need to keep Wu Jian so that, in the year 2050 when the devs break down and finally add an option to have two gods, I can play a Wu Jian Uskayaw ant. By 2050 we'll all be playing humans with -1's in every skill (because -1 is actually 'good' for some reason) and a choice between Trog and Vehumet. In 2051, Vehumet (and all magic) will be removed. In 2052, Trog will be removed because 'without magic, there's no downside to not choosing Trog, leading to 'optimal play' always being Trog.' This will be considered 'against the spirit of the game.'
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Mar 9, 2017 05:32
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So if use whirlwind 7 times in a row I will use 7.0 aut moving and get 10 attacks on all adjacent monsters? That would remove a lot of my perceived issues with axing. Same with walljumping, I jump 7 times with a 0.7 delay weapon and I can expect 10 attacks on average? What all do the heavenly clouds do? I can see they halo creatures and reveal invisible creatures...
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Mar 9, 2017 05:48
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That's correct regarding number of attacks. Of course, the big deal with axes and WJC is lunge + whirlwind, since it should let you hit an enemy up to four times in one move. The main function of the clouds is to block LoS. I think anything else they do is pretty secondary.
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Mar 9, 2017 05:57
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FulsomFrank posted:Alright, recommendation time. The answer is always go with Arga unless the other option is an absolutely boner popping randart. My NaSk got +8 bardiche of Shary {speed, +Rage Dex+3 SInv} as his first gift from Oka and I'd say that's probably the best weapon I've ever seen based almost purely on how good speed is with a weapon that does over 12 damage. I think the value of faster attacks in having less stuff happen between swings is pretty huge. You're a lot less likely to eat a scary amount of damage between swings. I'm still experimenting with Pain brand on the Wu Jian Wanderer Hill Orc. Picked up +8 orange crystal plate armour (worn) {Archmagi, Int+3 Clar} and the ring of the Mage (right hand) {Wiz MR++ Int+3} which with 19 Necromancy has Death Channel at 4% and a +7 war axe of pain which is a 95% chance of an extra D19 damage. Consensus is that cleaving pain with spec weapon does indeed melt faces, and the brand works really well with the WJ god moves now that I am using them more. However, wearing OCP in 20.0 means taking a lot more hits than I'm used to, especially in terms of getting hit by stuff like bolts of draining. I have to say the devs have added some good counters to high AC low EV play - additions like corrosion and the big giants along with removing RMSL and Phase Shift makes it much more challenging.
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Mar 9, 2017 06:03
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Araganzar posted:I have to say the devs have added some good counters to high AC low EV play - additions like corrosion and the big giants along with removing RMSL and Phase Shift makes it much more challenging. I'm not sure if one's objectively better than the other, but more constant damage is easier to deal with than sudden spikes of high damage imo. jon joe posted:They need to keep Wu Jian so that, in the year 2050 when the devs break down and finally add an option to have two gods, I can play a Wu Jian Uskayaw ant. Of course the power strategy would be to worship Xom+someone else, so you can have a normal game with more Fun.
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Mar 9, 2017 07:10
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tote up a bags posted:Please quote this when the god considered almost universally as fun as hell is removed in favour of balance in a game that has "challenge species" to make it harder and thus unbalanced Good odds this happens
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Mar 9, 2017 07:30
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crawl 0.20: we don't even wait for removals before complaining about em
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Mar 9, 2017 07:32
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i'm gonna take a break from this thread. see you guys in a while.
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Mar 9, 2017 07:34
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Ah dammit you negative asses, ya done run off PF for awhile. As much as I complain about somethings (Torment Crown, Ogre mace apts, and refusal to recognize Tengus as the best race) I still think the game is headed in a good direction and only play trunk. World Famous W fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 08:31
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Congrats, producing enough negativity to drive PF from the thread is quite a feat. That's like pissing off Ghandi so bad he stabs you in the eye with a pencil... Seems like WJ got a good reception among crawl devs as-is, which is really all that matters. We might see a nerf to whirlwind damage similar to cleave. I started a KoWn and I have to say the god is really fun as a stabber. You find yourself getting into patterns with the skills that are a bit reminiscent of necrodancing. I had no source of invis/confusion and only dagger ego was freeze but the slow from whirlwind and the ability to distract and then lunge really made up for it. If you walljump and confuse a monster, will the subsequent attack be a confused stab? Or do you have to make a melee attack after the walljump to get the bonus?
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Mar 9, 2017 08:36
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I really would not want to see wall jump only usable as an approach move. Its most fun use is as a tool to gain distance to continue the fight with a lunge. If possible, I would like the god to make you so weak defensively (through a AC related conduct or similar) to the degree that an escape tool as overpowered as current wall jump is both balanced and necessary for survival. That's why I'm exploring things like % AC reductions, drawbacks based on armour encumbrance, etc. I think that imposing any artificial limitation on when wall jump can be used would make it way less fun.
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Mar 9, 2017 09:06
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PleasingFungus posted:i'm gonna take a break from this thread. see you guys in a while. Don't come back if you aren't bringing Singularity with you.
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Mar 9, 2017 09:20
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I'm just hoping for the best and imagining the worst, so I'm discussing changes to the god as normal and won't be shocked if it's suddenly gone  This is not an unreasonable stance to take.
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Mar 9, 2017 09:38
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Does anyone in here regularly play humans? They seem like a strictly inferior choice for just about anything you'd use them for, though I guess that doesn't stop a bunch of the game's challenge races.
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Mar 9, 2017 09:57
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SteelNeuron posted:I really would not want to see wall jump only usable as an approach move. Its most fun use is as a tool to gain distance to continue the fight with a lunge. Felid is a race with garbage ac and garbage hp with one of the two major advantages to counterbalance this being the ability to freely run away from normal speed monsters. Felids are actually reasonably powerful if you play cautiously and to their strengths, being able to move faster than monsters is really powerful. However, most people find that Felids are awful and unfun to play because of the severe penalties that make them so fragile. Spriggans and Centaurs are also pretty lousy as far as defenses go and so their playstyles usually involve abusing their move speed by necessity. A defense penalty that counterbalances what is effectively spriggan movement would have to be pretty severe and would undermine the actual fun part of the god imo, being able to dance around large groups of monsters and chain combos to cut through them. Also I think the playstyle of lunge being optimal and easy to pull off encourages really boring play. Using wall jumps to constantly gain distance to lunge again means you're using at least 3 key presses for every attack. Repeatedly playing a dull mini game to get an extra 30% damage per attack is not a good god ability.
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Mar 9, 2017 10:11
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Darox posted:Also I think the playstyle of lunge being optimal and easy to pull off encourages really boring play. Using wall jumps to constantly gain distance to lunge again means you're using at least 3 key presses for every attack. Repeatedly playing a dull mini game to get an extra 30% damage per attack is not a good god ability. I wouldn't say that's optimal. It does depend on your build to some extent though. What I found works best for me (against single targets) is whirlwind until slow lands, then lunge, or wall jump + lunge if the terrain allows for it. I think that's fine, because it's mostly dependant on my surroundings. In any case, making wall jump + lunge contingent on a slow being applied reduces the tedium a lot. Multiple targets is a lot more interesting since you really can't come with a prefab plan. You need to look at how enemies are laid out all the time. SteelNeuron fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 10:18
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has there ever been consideration for being able to switch between stances that would offer between maybe higher skill damage + less ac/whatever and more defenses but less skill damage?
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Mar 9, 2017 10:32
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Panic! at Nabisco posted:Does anyone in here regularly play humans? They seem like a strictly inferior choice for just about anything you'd use them for, though I guess that doesn't stop a bunch of the game's challenge races. HuWn is one of my most popular starts. I enjoy adapting to whatever the game throws at me
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Mar 9, 2017 10:41
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In non-Wu related trunk changes, wands IDing when you step on them instead of on pickup has broken my autopickup system and that makes me sad. When they first come into view they are marked for autopickup so they don't stop autoexplore but when you step on and ID them they don't get picked up so explore keeps moving on and I have to go back to pick it up. At that point why not make them IDed on sight so it doesn't mess with how autoexplore reacts to items. Also please add fixedarts to ?/I so I can tell ingame if a halfling can wield Cerebovs sword without having to first kill Cerebov.
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Mar 9, 2017 10:54
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I would say making wands identify on sight would remove the choice you sometimes get of running into a room with a monster in it and a wand behind them or one of those glass wall vaults in hopes it is a good one. But there are no wands good enough anymore to make a risk for them 
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Mar 9, 2017 11:10
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Yeah wands overall feel just ok, they provide a big boost to early/mid game but past that I only ever keep and use acid past that since those will wreck curse skulls/toes (it's basically a more reliable bolt of inaccuracy since acid resistance is so rare). Scattershot is good too but low AC/high EV targets that only die effectively to scattershot are pretty rare, so I usually only keep it as a hydrakiller for Lair/Swamp. Wand of clouds is good if you have the spare charges to re-apply, since the recent change of requiring LOS to keep offensive clouds makes it so re-rolling for acid clouds can be a thing by just moving in and out of LOS, and also you'll get moved around yourself and lose the clouds. Still not a fan of this behavior but it'll get the job done if you have nothing better
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Mar 9, 2017 11:35
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SteelNeuron posted:I really would not want to see wall jump only usable as an approach move. Its most fun use is as a tool to gain distance to continue the fight with a lunge. You've watched a lot of WJC games: what is the ratio between walljump-lunge use and walljump escapes? quote:If possible, I would like the god to make you so weak defensively (through a AC related conduct or similar) to the degree that an escape tool as overpowered as current wall jump is both balanced and necessary for survival. I really believe that escape tools need costs. That's why I suggested to keep arbitrary walljump under the heavenly clouds: you've paid for this with piety.
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Mar 9, 2017 13:25
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dpeg posted:With several monsters around, you may be able to do exactly that. I believe you get more decisions out of a more rare, but stronger walljump. It seems to be used routinely for both purposes. Walljump escapes are powerful, but then again, the situations people get themselves in when worshipping WJC are worse; no other god will get you in the middle of an enemy pack this easily. dpeg posted:I really believe that escape tools need costs. That's why I suggested to keep arbitrary walljump under the heavenly clouds: you've paid for this with piety. It could do with hidden costs, I agree; I just don't like them in the form of restrictions to its use. Ideally, the only thing dictating when you can use a martial attack is terrain layout. I want to insist on the idea of noise on wall jump, because I think it works well on a variety of levels. If you choose to wear very light armour, you won't suffer the noise problem, but in exchange your resilience to damage bursts will go way down, which exacerbates the god's natural weakness against burst damage (since you're exposed to multiple enemies at once). If you choose to fight that weakness with high AC/SH, you instead have to think twice when wall jumping because of the extra noise. This creates two new build variants for the god that are viable and different. I can understand the risks involved in such a powerful escape move, but in practice it isn't that much better than being a spriggan or having access to cblink. The opportunity cost of god choice, terrain limitations, and with our hypothetical change, noise, seem like enough of a price to pay. SteelNeuron fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 13:36
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