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I didn't say it isn't effective. My point is that it's not sufficient, as you note, for forwarding a better agenda.
GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Mar 8, 2017 |
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Mar 8, 2017 13:51
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So you're saying we should salt every indivisible group with socialist agitators?
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Mar 8, 2017 16:57
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ChickenOfTomorrow posted:So you're saying we should salt every indivisible group with socialist agitators?
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Mar 8, 2017 17:04
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ChickenOfTomorrow posted:So you're saying we should salt every indivisible group with socialist agitators? Well I'm definitely not saying don't do that.
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Mar 8, 2017 17:08
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ChickenOfTomorrow posted:So you're saying we should salt every indivisible group with socialist agitators? Well, I mean, you can recruit there. Don't disrupt their core competency!
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Mar 8, 2017 18:42
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I'm happy that Indivisible is making things hard on the Republican administration and its collaborators even though I don't agree with the politics of most people in that group and don't think it's the most effective vehicle for my own activism.
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Mar 8, 2017 20:02
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If you can get into an organization that helps you understand and influence the leadership structure of the Democratic party, it might be worthwhile to just smile and take them for a ride.
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Mar 8, 2017 20:40
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https://twitter.com/womensmarch/status/839547361949061120
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Mar 8, 2017 22:11
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ate all the Oreos posted:Does this actually work like, at all? Is there any modern science behind it, because nobody I know likes talking to people who come door to door and definitely not people who come door to door trying to change their political opinions. Yes, it works, and, it can be extremely effective. Here's an analysis from the 2010 UK general election: http://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-does-door-to-door-campaigning-work-36075 Here's a more complex analysis from 1999 about GOTV canvassing that shows a 15% increase in turnout after contact from a campaign rep: http://www.pnas.org/content/96/19/10939.full Here's a long, but very interesting article about the effort to shift perspectives on LGBTQ issues with door-to-door campaigning: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/magazine/how-do-you-change-voters-minds-have-a-conversation.html Moreover, it makes you a better political operative. Actually talking to people in person with differing viewpoints is the best possible way to find holes in your own arguments, find the best ways to reach people and incorporate the perspective of the people you're trying to affect. It's not necessarily the most efficient thing you can do, but I think it's something everyone should try.
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Mar 8, 2017 23:29
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Yes, it works, and, it can be extremely effective. Well okay, though I still have my doubts on the effectiveness of "yelling at boomers" doing anything besides getting them to remember to vote against you.
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Mar 9, 2017 00:01
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ate all the Oreos posted:Well okay, though I still have my doubts on the effectiveness of "yelling at boomers" doing anything besides getting them to remember to vote against you. If you're knocking on people's doors to get up in their poo poo and argue with them, you should stop immediately and seek help.That's not what canvassing is. It's not even what civic engagement is, and it's not effective or constructive. If you want to rage against the machine, go organize or join a mass action.
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Mar 9, 2017 01:09
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:If you're knocking on people's doors to get up in their poo poo and argue with them, you should stop immediately and seek help.That's not what canvassing is. It's not even what civic engagement is, and it's not effective or constructive. If you want to rage against the machine, go organize or join a mass action. Okay but that's what Knock Every Door sounded like from the previous (probably entirely sarcastic and I'm just missing it) post I was originally replying to
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Mar 9, 2017 01:11
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ate all the Oreos posted:Okay but that's what Knock Every Door sounded like from the previous (probably entirely sarcastic and I'm just missing it) post I was originally replying to
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Mar 9, 2017 05:15
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ate all the Oreos posted:Well okay, though I still have my doubts on the effectiveness of "yelling at boomers" doing anything besides getting them to remember to vote against you.
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Mar 9, 2017 06:17
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coyo7e posted:You're literally the only person citing "yelling at boomers". In fact the post I'm pretty sure your yelling quote came from, was about being yelled at BY boomers on their own front porch, when you go canvassing/educating. It said being yelled at by / yelling at, neither of them seem particularly useful or worthwhile  Veyrall posted:Yeah, no, Knock Every Door means you go to various places and meet with people there to get an actual roadmap of what issues are important where and to whom. There's no need to even express your own political opinion, and it's probably better if you don't. Well okay 
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Mar 9, 2017 07:09
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ate all the Oreos posted:It said being yelled at by / yelling at, And then making a stand on that lie, and then deflecting. Please, move along and come back with something else.
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Mar 9, 2017 07:45
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Veyrall posted:Yeah, no, Knock Every Door means you go to various places and meet with people there to get an actual roadmap of what issues are important where and to whom. There's no need to even express your own political opinion, and it's probably better if you don't. MJ just put out an article about Knock Every Door and their efforts recently for anyone curious.
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Mar 9, 2017 12:04
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coyote yapping at the jerks until they run off good dog but yeah this has made me consider doing door to door stuff around here, I'm in a left-y part of the northwest but we're really really lovely about gentrification ,housing and public transit, which is gonna fuckin kill us if we get our federal funding cut so I might as well get more people involved in making a good decision about roads for once
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Mar 9, 2017 12:09
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coyo7e posted:no, you didn't. What? Of course I didn't, the original post I quoted did, hence "it"  coyo7e posted:you're lying, in order to make both sides seem equivalent. What sides are you even talking about, what am I doing that involves lying I wasn't even aware that I was making a stand  coyo7e posted:Please, move along and come back with something else. Okay 
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Mar 9, 2017 13:42
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quote:You're literally the only person citing "yelling at boomers". No he's not, the original quote that started the exchange was "I'm all about DSA, but there's also the post-Bernie Our Revolution and Knock Every Door, if you're all about getting yelled at/yelling at old boomer shits right there on their front stoops." by Jack Gladney. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3798064&pagenumber=32&perpage=40#post470104829 quote:no, you didn't. you're lying, in order to make both sides seem equivalent. quote:coyote yapping at the jerks until they run off good dog 
Kekekela fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 14:13
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GunnerJ posted:I didn't say it isn't effective. My point is that it's not sufficient, as you note, for forwarding a better agenda. Oh you're absolutely right. Everyone I talked to at the meeting I went to was on the same page about that. There's definitely a place (and need!) for formulating and forwarding a better agenda. The argument from Indivisible really just seems to be that there is also a place and a need for playing defense against the actions of the current administration/congress. They're focusing on the immediate need to stop those actions wherever they can, without diluting their efforts in platform-building. The impression I get is that they're expecting other groups (Democratic party, DSA, etc.) to take on platform-building while they play defense. I think it makes a lot of sense.
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Mar 9, 2017 14:37
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Just to clear the air: 1) I don't think yelling at boomers and being yelled at by boomers are equivalent at all and I'm sorry that I inadvertently implied that. I know this kinda sounds like "I'm sorry you were offended  " but I don't really know what else to say about it because I honestly didn't mean to do that2) Now that people have responded about Knock Every Door specifically I no longer think it's about yelling at boomers and agree that it looks neat and is not counterproductive
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Mar 9, 2017 14:52
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People being agreeable in a broad leftist forum  Where will it all end?!Seriously though, a diversity of tactics is not only really good and effective, it's also important because it lets people do the specific things they're good at and feel motivated to. As long as a given tactic does not actively hinder the broader aim of a socialist society( though that is its own  ), we should not spend over much time criticizing it.
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Mar 9, 2017 15:38
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It seems generally plausible that there's not a wrong way to resist and protect, and that anything people are motivated to do that they do out there in the world is good and there's no reason to criticize somebody for doing something you wouldn't as long as they're out there working and acting. I'm sure there are some stupid things that some people are doing, but we don't have to pay attention to them.
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Mar 9, 2017 16:03
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Jack Gladney posted:I'm sure there are some stupid things that some people are doing, but we don't have to pay attention to them. Exactly - and state and corporate media will spend staggering resources to try to make us criticize our own for the dumbest of reasons, we must not let them.
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Mar 9, 2017 16:06
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this is a good read: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/09/dont-let-establishment-opportunists-ruin-resistance-movement quote:There is a possibility that the resistance to Trump will turn out the same way – that it will become a vehicle for our Enron Democrats to avoid accountability. “I don’t think people want a new direction,” House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi said in December. Now is not the moment for infighting, others have insisted, but for unity and togetherness. Unity behind the existing leadership, that is. Changing the personnel in the C-Suites will only weaken us, they will say; hell, we can’t even afford to see our leaders criticized.
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Mar 9, 2017 16:11
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I'm curious, when I heard the "yelling at boomers" thing, I immediately recognized it as a joke. Some others apparently did not. I have experience with canvassing, so I recognize that sometimes you get some old angry people on your list who are brainwashed by Limbaugh and freak out at you, in which case you try to extract yourself unless they start following you around or call the cops/HOA security. I would assume that people who haven't canvassed might not have seen it the same way. I guess that's just on my mind because in my own political organizing, I've been having to take care to remember that new people are new. Like, if we talk about a time we were canvassing in 110 degree weather, we need to mention that we're not going to do that to a new person on their first canvass.
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Mar 9, 2017 17:10
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:I'm curious, when I heard the "yelling at boomers" thing, I immediately recognized it as a joke. Some others apparently did not. Yeah I haven't canvassed before and my incomplete understanding of it (plus the literal name of Knock Every Door) made it sound like you were just going to every single house and attempting to convince the occupants which seems downright dangerous here in the great stand your ground state of Florida
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Mar 9, 2017 17:24
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Apparently the racists lost the election in the Netherlands. Thank sweet gently caress for that, but now we should probably examine the campaign leadup and how they beat the racists.
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Mar 16, 2017 11:11
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Veyrall posted:Apparently the racists lost the election in the Netherlands. Thank sweet gently caress for that, but now we should probably examine the campaign leadup and how they beat the racists. They beat the racists because (a) 80% turnout and (B) voting for the status quo of centrism and realizing what a meaningless gesture a protest vote for racism is, there's also reports that they see trump in action and they were like "lol Nope".
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Mar 16, 2017 11:35
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"They beat the racists", in this case, means that this election was a huge success for the right wing. The three parties with the most votes are all right wing. The fourth is centrist. Meanwhile, the social democrats lost 75% of their voters. And the fascist party still gained some seats, just not as many as the press had feared. This is in no way a success for the left.
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Mar 16, 2017 13:10
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Veyrall posted:Apparently the racists lost the election in the Netherlands. Thank sweet gently caress for that, but now we should probably examine the campaign leadup and how they beat the racists.
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Mar 16, 2017 13:14
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Also it's possible that the racists only lost because Trump et al is doing such an amazingly terrible job that people saw him and went "lol nope" rather than seeing racism as the problem
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Mar 16, 2017 13:59
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ate all the Oreos posted:Also it's possible that the racists only lost because Trump et al is doing such an amazingly terrible job that people saw him and went "lol nope" rather than seeing racism as the problem This is a distinct possibility, for a solid week after the US election a lot of nominally leftist people were doing the same thing in ignoring the blatant stoking of racial hatred.
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Mar 16, 2017 14:05
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FAUXTON posted:This is a distinct possibility, for a solid week after the US election a lot of nominally leftist people were doing the same thing in ignoring the blatant stoking of racial hatred. a lot of peeps ignoring that poo poo before the election too and suddenly democrats care about millions being deported and stuffed into concrete boxes with space blankets
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Mar 17, 2017 02:25
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Doorknob Slobber posted:a lot of peeps ignoring that poo poo before the election too and suddenly democrats care about millions being deported and stuffed into concrete boxes with space blankets The way progress gets taken for granted is kind of the worst part of it all - the concept of a long and tedious fight is forgotten because you're assuming the department of justice will remain just and that the government will just naturally act to protect civil rights to at least some degree, because it's been that way since you were like 10.
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Mar 17, 2017 02:51
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ate all the Oreos posted:Also it's possible that the racists only lost because Trump et al is doing such an amazingly terrible job that people saw him and went "lol nope" rather than seeing racism as the problem Hey, whatever gets people on the bus. FAUXTON posted:The way progress gets taken for granted is kind of the worst part of it all - the concept of a long and tedious fight is forgotten because you're assuming the department of justice will remain just and that the government will just naturally act to protect civil rights to at least some degree, because it's been that way since you were like 10. I think this is one of the biggest reasons Trump won. Nobody who wasn't alive in the Great Depression or through WW2 can really comprehend how bad things can truly get (and the US was relatively sheltered even then). It may be that human society needs a cataclysmic shock every century or so just to remind everyone how bad it can get. Which is not a good augury in the nuclear era.
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Mar 17, 2017 04:03
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I think this is one of the biggest reasons Trump won. Nobody who wasn't alive in the Great Depression or through WW2 can really comprehend how bad things can truly get (and the US was relatively sheltered even then). It may be that human society needs a cataclysmic shock every century or so just to remind everyone how bad it can get. Which is not a good augury in the nuclear era. I'm genuinely scared that Trump's foreign policy is going to get North Korea to nuke us for shits and giggles.
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Mar 17, 2017 04:08
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Hey, whatever gets people on the bus. Hell even people who were alive in the GW Bush years were willing to accept that you've sometimes got to cast a vote against someone rather than for because the options are regression versus status quo. Especially folks who'd seen things go from all right under Clinton to hellride under Bush. On the other hand, Reagan showed up right around the time when you'd have people dying off or at least getting old enough to be bedridden on election day who'd entered adolescence during a time when things weren't yet Bad but were Getting Bad after 1929 and saw what could come of a government-wide will to Fix That poo poo. So yeah I think you're on to something there but just not on such rare a timetable as once every century or so. Two terms is long enough for someone to go from "my biggest concerns are crust on my lunch sandwich and what gross poo poo I can pull at lunch" to "oh god I just graduated and not only are there no goddamn jobs paying enough to cover rent and loan repayment but I'm also being threatened because of my identity" and it's sure as hell long enough for someone to start thinking it'll always be relatively normal and safe to be trans/black/gay. More than that and you have people just loving off because they think we can't roll backwards.
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Mar 17, 2017 06:39
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well that's a mouthful
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Mar 17, 2017 08:40
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