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So I tried reading this manga based off of the web novel "Re:Monster". It is one of the worst things I have ever read. Even if you ignore the "capturing women and feeding them pheromones so it's totally consensual and not rape!" stuff, there is literally no narrative or tension and the entire plot just seems to consist of the protagonist being way stronger than everyone and constantly getting stronger and finding powerful items. I came up with more interesting storylines while playing with action figures as a child. I truly do not understand the audience for this stuff. I was a teenager with bad taste once, and even teenage me wouldn't have read this drivel. I am genuinely offended at the fact that fiction this bad both exists and is popular enough to warrant a manga adaption. Why is it that this sort of stuff has become so popular recently? Why is the wish fulfillment fantasy teens used to read in the past no longer enough (though I have a strong hunch some of the audience for this stuff are grown adults in their 20s)?
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Mar 9, 2017 22:44
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Earlier this week, the author of Honzuki (Bookworm) announced that they were in the planning stages for a drama CD, and today she announced that Maine's story was finally -- after 3½ years of writing -- complete, although there's still some epilogue stuff to come. Checking the PDF version, it clocked in at 11389 pages. Might pass over 12k if you include the side story chapters she moved off to another page. Wonder if we'll ever see it animated.
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Mar 10, 2017 13:01
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Ytlaya posted:So I tried reading this manga based off of the web novel "Re:Monster". It is one of the worst things I have ever read. Even if you ignore the "capturing women and feeding them pheromones so it's totally consensual and not rape!" stuff, there is literally no narrative or tension and the entire plot just seems to consist of the protagonist being way stronger than everyone and constantly getting stronger and finding powerful items. I came up with more interesting storylines while playing with action figures as a child. Isn't it just that web novels are free and easily accessible? Then people with poo poo taste or who don't know any better latch onto the first thing they see and it snowballs from there darkgray posted:Earlier this week, the author of Honzuki (Bookworm) announced that they were in the planning stages for a drama CD, and today she announced that Maine's story was finally -- after 3½ years of writing -- complete, although there's still some epilogue stuff to come. Checking the PDF version, it clocked in at 11389 pages. Might pass over 12k if you include the side story chapters she moved off to another page. 
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Mar 10, 2017 22:59
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booksnake posted:Isn't it just that web novels are free and easily accessible? Then people with poo poo taste or who don't know any better latch onto the first thing they see and it snowballs from there I don't think this alone is enough to explain it, because you see the same general subject matter show up repeatedly, which seems to indicate that this is something readers specifically want. In particular, stories where the main character just constantly becomes stronger and stronger without ever encountering any sort of challenge seem really common. My armchair hypothesis is that the pressures of Japanese society create some sort of backlash where NEET-types fantasize about completely dominating everyone around them. Like, because they don't have any sort of power or influence in their real lives, they want to fill that hole with stories like these. So you end up with stories that are less about "having fun adventures in a fantasy world" and more focused on "dominating those fuckers who looked down on you." Like a lot of this stuff has a subtle (or not-so-subtle) mean-spirited edge to it. edit: Also, as I mentioned before, this stuff doesn't even have a "pulp entertainment" appeal to it. Stuff like Shield Hero or Re:Monster are not interesting in the slightest to read. Literally 100% of the appeal seems to be derived from being a power fantasy. Power fantasies obviously show up in other fiction, including Western Fantasy novels, but in most cases they tend to also involve some sort of coherent plot. In the case of the sort of web novels I'm talking about, there is almost nothing left once you strip away the power fantasy elements. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Mar 11, 2017 |
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Mar 11, 2017 00:51
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I think in part it's just the pendulum swinging back from a decade of light novel protagonists who were silent and took it, or something. People are probably just tired of the frustrating waiting part until the protagonist finally overcomes his internal issues or whatever.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:58
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i find the ones that are specifically about going back in time to show those mean jerks in school how strong and cool the self-insert is hilarious, though only in very small doses. they always get incredibly cruel and rapey (which is where i invariably stop reading), which says a lot about why their classmates loathed the authors so much. they aren't all japanese, either.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:00
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Also as I understand it most of this stuff starts as webnovels, which is just some random dude with an internet connection trying to make his breakthrough as an author in a market where that's actually kind of viable. So one thing becomes famous and successful (and also features rape or slavery or something horrible) which spawns a million imitators trying to cash in. Or imitators who are just creatively bankrupt in general but want to ride the wave of popularity. It reflects more on the audience than the authors I think, people write what will sell.
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Mar 11, 2017 05:42
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i find the pure power fantasy novels to be all in good fun. i enjoy stuff like Everyone Else is a Returnee. the mc is stronger than everyone and every lady falls in love with him. i get turned off when it gets super murdery and rapey though
Law Cheetah fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Mar 11, 2017 |
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Mar 11, 2017 06:46
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i am also reading a novel called game market 1983 thats really similar to I’m Really a Superstar, except instead of stealing literary works from our universe to succeed in another world the main character time travels back to 1983 and goes to japan in order to insinuate himself into the fledgling video game industry by stealing game ideas from the future. miyamoto, iwata, and gunpei yokoi are all characters
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Mar 11, 2017 07:02
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see, i just don't understand the urge to become famous so i don't get the wn's where that is the only goal. it seems so petty and banal to me, somehow even more so than naked power fantasies.
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Mar 11, 2017 07:07
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:see, i just don't understand the urge to become famous so i don't get the wn's where that is the only goal. it seems so petty and banal to me, somehow even more so than naked power fantasies. I think the "replicated my world's works" fame ones are more an opportunity to the writer to sperg about their favorite works.
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Mar 11, 2017 07:48
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Do any of those end up with the protagonists just constantly struggling and unable to deal with the fact that they're massive frauds and have no ideas of their own?
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Mar 11, 2017 08:09
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:see, i just don't understand the urge to become famous so i don't get the wn's where that is the only goal. it seems so petty and banal to me, somehow even more so than naked power fantasies. I think a lot of it is to manufacture drama. It's why no protagonist with super secret powers or knowledge just hides out for years building their powerbase, but instead constantly stick their hands into situations where they really shouldn't.
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Mar 11, 2017 08:15
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darkgray posted:I think in part it's just the pendulum swinging back from a decade of light novel protagonists who were silent and took it, or something. People are probably just tired of the frustrating waiting part until the protagonist finally overcomes his internal issues or whatever. But they didn't? Like, this is a big myth, but LN protagonists always were wish fulfilment in big measures. "Silent and Took it" usually ended up meaning "had girls falling over him", and half of them actually had pro-active protagonists, though some of them arguably didn't. But even then, it was "I want girls to love nice guys (tip fedora)".
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Mar 11, 2017 09:55
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Regarding wish fulfillment, a good example of the way it should be done is something like Harry Potter. In Harry Potter the wish fulfillment centers around the setting (getting to go to magic school, have adventures, etc) and the protagonist is also the "Chosen One" and exceptionally talented in some areas. But Harry Potter would be dumb if Harry had the special ability to freeze time, dominated all his opponents, and had every single named girl in his class as part of his harem. Law Cheetah posted:i find the pure power fantasy novels to be all in good fun. i enjoy stuff like Everyone Else is a Returnee. the mc is stronger than everyone and every lady falls in love with him. i get turned off when it gets super murdery and rapey though Eh, it depends how it's executed. I understand the appeal of having a protagonist with some special/powerful ability, but there needs to either be a compelling conflict or some other appealing elements (for example One Punch Man pulls off the "powerful protagonist" stuff because at its core it's more of a comedy and also focuses on other characters). A lot of these web novels involve the protagonist never facing any real challenges past the first few chapters or so, and the appeal seems to be based around just watching the protagonist become more and more powerful. A power fantasy can still work if the protagonist faces the occasional challenges that he/she must become stronger to confront, but otherwise it's it's just boring. It's especially frustrating when a premise that could have been good is ruined by the author overloading it with power fantasy/wish fulfillment elements. A good example is Sevens - the ancestor stuff and core plot are relatively compelling, but then the MC gets a bunch of completely ridiculous overpowered abilities and a harem consisting of literally 10+ girls IIRC. If the same story involved the protagonist having just one unique/interesting special power and just 2 or 3 love interests it would have been 10x better. This stuff is especially ridiculous in web novels that take place in a video game setting with levels/skills/etc. Leveling up in video games is fun because you're controlling the character and playing an actual game that exists. Reading about something leveling up in a web novel is almost always really dumb because the game in question doesn't even exist, so the author can just arbitrarily say "so then the protagonist grinded some levels and got all these sweet skills (that don't exist because this game doesn't exist)." This isn't to say video game settings can't work, but they need to have clearly defined and sensible systems if the skills/combat are actually an important element of the story. What I've read of Kumoko (which isn't much) works pretty well because she acquires and uses a relatively small set of skills in reasonable ways, but a lot of RPG-setting web novels have the protagonist gain new skills at a rate that would be completely ridiculous in any actual game (and they'll often also have some special unique skill that is ridiculously overpowered as well). Specifically, it seems like "protagonists that can learn almost any skill from other enemies" seems to be a recurring trend - I can think of at least 4 or 5 series that do this. The appeal seems to just be watching the protagonist gather hundreds of skills and become more and more powerful. I don't think you can really say "it's all in good fun" about that sort of thing, because there isn't even anything fun about it (or at the very least I think it says something negative about someone if they do find that sort of thing entertaining). Like, even if you remove the misogyny from something like Shield Hero or Re:Monster, they are still so incredibly bad that it genuinely offends my sensibilities. (I know I'm overreacting to this stuff, but Re:Monster was just so awesomely terrible that it made me irritated at the mere fact that it and other similar stories exist and are even relatively popular.)
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Mar 11, 2017 11:06
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Single player only deals with the video game setting very well since it directly addresses the consequences of everything being a game, and its actually the main problem that the MC has to resolve. He finds out that pumping charisma at the beginning turns everyone around him into slavish sycophants and as he progresses in the game its somehow becoming more real and leeching the reality from his actual life.
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Mar 11, 2017 11:55
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Arkeus posted:But they didn't? Like, this is a big myth, but LN protagonists always were wish fulfilment in big measures. "Silent and Took it" usually ended up meaning "had girls falling over him", and half of them actually had pro-active protagonists, though some of them arguably didn't. But even then, it was "I want girls to love nice guys (tip fedora)". Eh, I was talking about power levels, not romance. Pretty sure most battle LNs were about underdogs overcoming the odds, and so on, and if they did have immense powers, it'd take some kind of struggle to discover new facets to defeat the opponent. Romantically, many of the web novel writers seemingly realized that they could have their cake and eat it too by setting the harem in a fantasy world, so now all their readers can "get with" their favourite girl and not feel slighted. It causes some kind of inflation, though, because in order to keep up a semblance of "will-they-won't-they" tension, the author has to introduce more and more girls for the hero to dazzle, and the harem just grows unrestricted in some cases.
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Mar 11, 2017 16:04
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I doubt harem growth is for tension reasons in most of these LNs. Authors just have bigger fetish checklists, I imagine.
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Mar 11, 2017 17:37
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jon joe posted:I doubt harem growth is for tension reasons in most of these LNs. Authors just have bigger fetish checklists, I imagine. Sevens at least has internal tensions and the development of factions within the harem, plus the MC being distinctly unnerved by it outside of mr. lyle mode.
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Mar 11, 2017 21:17
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Ytlaya posted:
i guess thats the biggest difference between us, then. when a relatively innocent power fantasy wears thin, i just get bored and stop reading. i dont find it actively offensive like Re: Monster or Shield Hero can be, or the litany of openly psychopathic murderers you can find in xianxia main characters the only novels where I actively look forward to updates are Way of Choices and World of Cultivation, which arent really power fantasies in the way we're discussing
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Mar 11, 2017 23:27
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Paracelsus posted:Sevens at least has internal tensions and the development of factions within the harem, plus the MC being distinctly unnerved by it outside of mr. lyle mode. Sevens, by far, has the most enjoyable harem I've ever read of in a novel. Poor Lyle didn't want nor encourage it until it was too late to manage and now he's basically a prisoner in his own palace.
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Mar 12, 2017 06:21
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In the latest Kumoko Maou Shoujo Ariel finally kills big bad Potimas, and we get confirmation that Potimas was her father. I wonder where the story will go from now on.
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Mar 12, 2017 16:34
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Synthbuttrange posted:Do any of those end up with the protagonists just constantly struggling and unable to deal with the fact that they're massive frauds and have no ideas of their own? I'm Really a Superstar has a couple of instances where the main character should have gotten in trouble, but the author introduced a way for him to perfectly remember everything he has ever seen or read to get him out of it with game market 1983 the main character is such a naturally talented programmer and businessman, even outside of his idea stealing, that its kind of a mystery to me why he was never successful in his original timeline are there any other series like this? these are the only two I know of. people are talking like theres a lot of them though
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Mar 12, 2017 23:26
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Law Cheetah posted:are there any other series like this? these are the only two I know of. people are talking like theres a lot of them though a WW2 one just popped up on novelupdates and one guess as to which side he's on lol
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Mar 12, 2017 23:58
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lol
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Mar 13, 2017 00:29
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When wuxiaworld translated the qidian "most popular stories" tables I learned there's an entire genre of Chinese webnovels about time traveling back to WW2 to gently caress up the invading Japanese forces. I don't think anyone's every translated any of them.
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Mar 13, 2017 00:30
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Law Cheetah posted:I'm Really a Superstar has a couple of instances where the main character should have gotten in trouble, but the author introduced a way for him to perfectly remember everything he has ever seen or read to get him out of it There are a couple I've read, god of cooking and god of music, I wouldn't strongly recommend them but if the premise of one interests you it might be worth a shot. God of Cooking is basically Chopped/Iron Chef fanfic which is fun.
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Mar 13, 2017 00:31
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Sindai posted:When wuxiaworld translated the qidian "most popular stories" tables I learned there's an entire genre of Chinese webnovels about time traveling back to WW2 to gently caress up the invading Japanese forces. I don't think anyone's every translated any of them. see, that is much more understandable. puerile, sure, but wn's are puerile in general.
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Mar 13, 2017 00:33
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Been enjoying absolute choice and battle frenzy a lot lately
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Mar 13, 2017 01:25
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i utterly loathed absolute choice and i never tried reading battle frenzy because tempest of stellar war was so lousy.
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Mar 13, 2017 01:43
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Captain_duck posted:In the latest Kumoko Ahahahahah the boss now appears to be Sue's horrifying brother-complex Oh Kumo what a trainwreck you are these days.
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Mar 13, 2017 01:46
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Synthbuttrange posted:Ahahahahah the boss now appears to be Sue's horrifying brother-complex I doubt that Yandere-Imouto will be anything more then a small bump on the road towards total genocide/gyuri/sariel
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Mar 13, 2017 06:14
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i utterly loathed absolute choice How far did you read into absolute choice because it had a bit of a rough start but gets pretty funny once he starts powering up.
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Mar 13, 2017 11:19
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dipple posted:a WW2 one just popped up on novelupdates and one guess as to which side he's on lol gently caress wehraboos with any luck the story is a bait and switch and the protaganist ends up dying in a gas attack in wwi instead
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Mar 13, 2017 11:24
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dipple posted:How far did you read into absolute choice because it had a bit of a rough start but gets pretty funny once he starts powering up. i got to the second choice thing and then gave it up because i hate the insufferable idiot mc. i know it was trying to be funny but i didn't find anything about it even vaguely amusing.
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Mar 13, 2017 11:26
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dipple posted:How far did you read into absolute choice because it had a bit of a rough start but gets pretty funny once he starts powering up. I liked the start but hated the powering up lol.
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Mar 13, 2017 15:01
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Absolute choice is absolutely stupid, but I'm reading it anyway. It does have a few moments that are quite fun. I just got to a part where the MC's secret identity is rumored to be in a gay relationship with his real identity.
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Mar 13, 2017 21:50
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ISSTH seem to operate on Calvinball rules at this point.
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Mar 14, 2017 04:18
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Undefeated God of War has gotten to be extremely funny.
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Mar 14, 2017 06:07
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Paracelsus posted:ISSTH seem to operate on Calvinball rules at this point. At this point I'm mostly looking forward to the end because the translator will move over to A Will Eternal full time.
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Mar 14, 2017 06:53
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