EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

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GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Unless we're supposed to believe that a lot of them answered "Yeah, I'd be uncoalone mfortable with a black colleague" but really meant "I'd be uncomfortable with any colleague!".

The proper way to represent this data would have been to show the number of people who are comfortable with a white colleague, but not with a black one. Otherwise, yes, you are not differentiating between misanthropes and racists and just putting them all on one pile.

That 81% figure literally doesn't tell you if Germany is more or less racist than a country with 98%. It's totally retarded and sensationalist to put it in a headline.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 12:13

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 20:10

NihilismNow: Aug 31, 2003

you feelin fucky posted:

Like, you realize that as mayor of rotterdam Aboutaleb does not set diplomatic policy wrt turkey, decide who can or cannot enter the country or just call in the diplo branch of the police which is based in the hague, right? However he would have handled it if he were a national politician is irrelevant because it was way out of his league. His hand was forced the second the dutch government banned one minister and the turks decided to send a replacement. He is responsible for public order in his city. A foreign power decided to gently caress with it very publicly. He reacted accordingly and spoke out against it. In fact his entire thing is staying the gently caress out of national politics to be the labor party's sole beacon of light.

Even before the landing ban Aboutaleb has spoken out against these kinds of manifestations (Pauw & jinek 10-03): "Ik heb duidelijk te verstaande gegeven dat elke bijeenkomst over het referendum in aanwezigheid van een lid van het Turks kabinet door mij zal worden verboden" (I have made it clear that any meeting concerning the referendum attended by a member of the Turkish cabinet will be banned by me).
I agree that the cabinet probably wouldn't have let this escalate this far if there weren't elections in a few days. At the same time if this was just about getting votes from the PVV and "putting muslims in the back of the bus" Aboutaleb could have just as easily said there was no potential disruption of public order and removed himself from the situation. He also cooperated in escalating this situation. Because there are genuine concerns and he has seen what these kinds of manifestations do to the Turkish Dutch community in Rotterdam.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 12:26

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I'm not sure how that is relevant? Or, actually, how this makes Germany look better somehow? If German culture is way more about not socializing with people at work than for example the UK, then they should rightly care less about their co-workers being black or whatever. Unless we're supposed to believe that a lot of them answered "Yeah, I'd be uncomfortable with a black colleague" but really meant "I'd be uncomfortable with any colleague!".

Actually they did, because the corresponding figure for being able to tolerate a white colleague is also lower than in the other countries. Ze German prefers a personal office room in which to efficiently work in exchange for pay, without the onerous bother of human interaction with other Germans working in exchange for pay.

e: granted, that leaves about 8% blatant racists, which roughly corresponds to the racism vote (AFD and so on), which seems right.

suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Mar 12, 2017

# ? Mar 12, 2017 12:29

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:

The proper way to represent this data would have been to show the number of people who are comfortable with a white colleague, but not with a black one. Otherwise, yes, you are not differentiating between misanthropes and racists and just putting them all on one pile.

That 81% figure literally doesn't tell you if Germany is more or less racist than a country with 98%. It's totally retarded and sensationalist to put it in a headline.

So, are we to believe 17% of Germans are so antisocial that having coworkers is uncomfortable to them? I mean, it'd explain a lot of things, but come on.

blowfish posted:

Actually they did, because the corresponding figure for being able to tolerate a white colleague is also lower than in the other countries. Ze German prefers a personal office room in which to efficiently work in exchange for pay, without the onerous bother of human interaction with other Germans working in exchange for pay.

Alternatively explanation: Non-ethnic Germans are understandably uncomfortable working with a bunch of racists, thus lowering the "Comfortable working with white people" number.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 12:41

unpacked robinhood: Feb 18, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

AceOfFlames posted:

My coworkers are all pretty liberal but if the topic is gypsies, they immediately become complete racists. I see this everywhere.

there is no doubt in my mind that gypsies are criminal as gently caress

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 12, 2017 12:43

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

A Buttery Pastry posted:

So, are we to believe 17% of Germans are so antisocial that having coworkers is uncomfortable to them? I mean, it'd explain a lot of things, but come on.

Alternatively explanation: Non-ethnic Germans are understandably uncomfortable working with a bunch of racists, thus lowering the "Comfortable working with white people" number.

Have you like ever been to Germany, the whole country is anti social as gently caress and proud of it

e.g. for Germans it's a culture shock that in other countries you say sorry when accidentally bumping into someone in the supermarket, rather than after punching them in the face and realising you punched the wrong person

unpacked robinhood posted:

there is no doubt in my mind that gypsies are criminal as gently caress

*GIPSCIes

suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Mar 12, 2017

# ? Mar 12, 2017 12:45

you feelin fucky: May 23, 2009

NihilismNow posted:

Even before the landing ban Aboutaleb has spoken out against these kinds of manifestations (Pauw & jinek 10-03): "Ik heb duidelijk te verstaande gegeven dat elke bijeenkomst over het referendum in aanwezigheid van een lid van het Turks kabinet door mij zal worden verboden" (I have made it clear that any meeting concerning the referendum attended by a member of the Turkish cabinet will be banned by me).
I agree that the cabinet probably wouldn't have let this escalate this far if there weren't elections in a few days. At the same time if this was just about getting votes from the PVV and "putting muslims in the back of the bus" Aboutaleb could have just as easily said there was no potential disruption of public order and removed himself from the situation. He also cooperated in escalating this situation. Because there are genuine concerns and he has seen what these kinds of manifestations do to the Turkish Dutch community in Rotterdam.

Oh yeah, those concerns are valid and I don't think the government or aboutaleb did anything wrong. He probably knows them better than any politician. Still, the minister speaking at the consulate was not within his ability to ban. Just be aware aboutaleb stays out of national politics, the games that come with it and the compromises you sometimes have to make.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 12:46

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

A Buttery Pastry posted:

So, are we to believe 17% of Germans are so antisocial that having coworkers is uncomfortable to them? I mean, it'd explain a lot of things, but come on.

Alternatively explanation: Non-ethnic Germans are understandably uncomfortable working with a bunch of racists, thus lowering the "Comfortable working with white people" number.

And maybe aliens brain rays made them say that? Who the gently caress knows, it's all just speculation. The point is that this specific figure is wet garbage and doesn't tell you anything interesting about racism in Germany.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 12:52

you feelin fucky: May 23, 2009

I also don't think holland has an apartheid regime or muslims are physically limited to seats in public transport usually occupied by teenagers. It was a joke. Maybe a poor one.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 12:54

orange sky: May 7, 2007

Gypsies are still the class I have the most internal fights about. It's really hard based on my experience being completely neutral regarding them. Keep in mind that the area of lisbon I live in is also the area where most gypsies live. We have a shitload of programs aimed at gypsies, mostly regarding education, and that's where I'm 100% sure we must invest - we try to make all kids attend school but by 6 most kids have left school and are helping their mothers because their fathers are out of the picture, arrested or moved somewhere else. It's completely impossible to make the kids actually attend school and then by 15 they can't read and the whole cycle repeats. And that is all due to their culture that completely shuts down every outside influence - girls marry as soon as there's a man in the picture and they have their first period.

I'd love to know how to help all these people, but it's really hard and sometimes I have huge conflicts on how to look at them.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 13:03

orange sky: May 7, 2007

Btw Erdogan is going full tilt, this is going to poo poo fast

# ? Mar 12, 2017 13:07

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:

And maybe aliens brain rays made them say that? Who the gently caress knows, it's all just speculation. The point is that this specific figure is wet garbage and doesn't tell you anything interesting about racism in Germany.

Garbage according to you. Comparing like for like with Denmark, you get:

8%/2% = 4 times as many racists per capita
19%/4% = 5 times as many racists per capita

Which basically leaves us at the same conclusion. Doing it for the EU as a whole:

8%/11%/ = 0.7 times as many racists per capita
19%/17% = 1.1 times as many racists per capita

You end up somewhere between slightly better or slightly worse than average. The point definitely stands, even if you handwave poo poo away with the "They hate everybody equally" excuse.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 13:11

Honj Steak: May 31, 2013; Hi there.

orange sky posted:

Gypsies are still the class I have the most internal fights about. It's really hard based on my experience being completely neutral regarding them. Keep in mind that the area of lisbon I live in is also the area where most gypsies live. We have a shitload of programs aimed at gypsies, mostly regarding education, and that's where I'm 100% sure we must invest - we try to make all kids attend school but by 6 most kids have left school and are helping their mothers because their fathers are out of the picture, arrested or moved somewhere else. It's completely impossible to make the kids actually attend school and then by 15 they can't read and the whole cycle repeats. And that is all due to their culture that completely shuts down every outside influence - girls marry as soon as there's a man in the picture and they have their first period.

I'd love to know how to help all these people, but it's really hard and sometimes I have huge conflicts on how to look at them.

That's a dilemma of multiculturalism we should be aware of. Sometimes lifting people out of their misery and raising their living standards can lead to the destruction of their culture. If you help Roma and Sinti acquire integration and stability that almost necessarily means banning their arranged marriages which will lead to an end of Gypsie culture in the mid- to long-term.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 13:13

unpacked robinhood: Feb 18, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

Honj Steak posted:

That's a dilemma of multiculturalism we should be aware of. Sometimes lifting people out of their misery and raising their living standards can lead to the destruction of their culture. If you help Roma and Sinti acquire integration and stability that almost necessarily means banning their arranged marriages which will lead to an end of Gypsie culture in the mid- to long-term.

If a culture is poo poo garbage it must go

# ? Mar 12, 2017 13:15

BabyFur Denny: Mar 18, 2003

The concept of cultures is inherently oppressive and needs to die.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 13:20

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

Honj Steak posted:

That's a dilemma of multiculturalism we should be aware of. Sometimes lifting people out of their misery and raising their living standards can lead to the destruction of their culture. If you help Roma and Sinti acquire integration and stability that almost necessarily means banning their arranged marriages which will lead to an end of Gypsie culture in the mid- to long-term.

arranged marriages are hosed up and should go

# ? Mar 12, 2017 13:21

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Garbage according to you. Comparing like for like with Denmark, you get:

8%/2% = 4 times as many racists per capita
19%/4% = 5 times as many racists per capita

Which basically leaves us at the same conclusion. Doing it for the EU as a whole:

8%/11%/ = 0.7 times as many racists per capita
19%/17% = 1.1 times as many racists per capita

You end up somewhere between slightly better or slightly worse than average. The point definitely stands, even if you handwave poo poo away with the "They hate everybody equally" excuse.

Well I'm glad that you agree with me that it could be anywhere from 0.7 to 1.1 times as racist as anyone else and that there is no way to tell how much exactly from that poorly compiled statistic.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 13:33

unpacked robinhood: Feb 18, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

So those statistics prove that Germany exists basically

# ? Mar 12, 2017 13:38

goethe42: Jun 5, 2004; Ich sei, gewaehrt mir die Bitte, in eurem Bunde der Dritte!

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Garbage according to you. Comparing like for like with Denmark, you get:

8%/2% = 4 times as many racists per capita
19%/4% = 5 times as many racists per capita

But then, comparing not the hypothetical racism of a badly worded survey, but the actual racism at election time you get:

Germany (AfD): 7,1 %
Denmark(DF): 26,6 %

Which means IRL Danes are 3,7 times as racist as Germans.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 13:59

unpacked robinhood: Feb 18, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

goethe42 posted:

But then, comparing not the hypothetical racism of a badly worded survey, but the actual racism at election time you get:

Germany (AfD): 7,1 %
Denmark(DF): 26,6 %

Which means IRL Danes are 3,7 times as racist as Germans.

What if DFs racism is 4 times less concentrated.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 14:15

Andrast: Apr 21, 2010

unpacked robinhood posted:

What if DFs racism is 4 times less concentrated.

It's not

# ? Mar 12, 2017 14:16

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

If anything, you'd expect the Germans to be better at concentrating racism

# ? Mar 12, 2017 14:35

you feelin fucky: May 23, 2009

mobby_6kl posted:

If anything, you'd expect the Germans to be better at concentrating racism

It's more that german racism leads to concentration.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 14:40

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

unpacked robinhood posted:

If a culture is poo poo garbage it must go

Do tell how you think this should be achieved, I'm sure it will be fascinating :allears:

# ? Mar 12, 2017 14:49

Frogfingers: Oct 10, 2012

you feelin fucky posted:

It's more that german racism leads to concentration.

Has no government since WW2 ever attempted to reach out to the Roma?

# ? Mar 12, 2017 14:49

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Frogfingers posted:

Has no government since WW2 ever attempted to reach out to the Roma?

The Czechs force-sterilized Roma people up until the early 90's, if that's what you mean :shrug:

# ? Mar 12, 2017 15:04

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

goethe42 posted:

But then, comparing not the hypothetical racism of a badly worded survey, but the actual racism at election time you get:

Germany (AfD): 7,1 %
Denmark(DF): 26,6 %

Which means IRL Danes are 3,7 times as racist as Germans.

A lot of Germans trying to pretend like their country ain't hella racist. Just because you don't vote for "the racist party" doesn't mean you're not racist, it just means you're happy to vote for the regular conservatives instead. Perhaps because they give you that sweet "Defining people as Untermenschen" fix without being obviously racist, when they tell lazy Greeks/Southerners/Non-Germans to be more like you. Basically, Germans aren't going to flock to openly racist parties in the same way people do elsewhere, because the status quo seems more appealing when your country is on top and you get to look down on everyone - black or white.

Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:

Well I'm glad that you agree with me that it could be anywhere from 0.7 to 1.1 times as racist as anyone else and that there is no way to tell how much exactly from that poorly compiled statistic.

Not anyone else; the EU average. Which includes a bunch of really racist countries.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 15:14

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

blowfish posted:

e.g. for Germans it's a culture shock that in other countries you say sorry when accidentally bumping into someone in the supermarket, rather than after punching them in the face and realising you punched the wrong person

We're basically an entire nation of Bostonians.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 15:16

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

So what's the problem with Turkish politicians giving speeches in other countries? I assume the content of the speech doesn't incite hatred or break any other law. If you organize a public meeting somewhere and follow all the regulations, how does it matter whether one of the speakers is a politician from Turkey or a poet from Iceland?

# ? Mar 12, 2017 15:23

you feelin fucky: May 23, 2009

Doctor Malaver posted:

So what's the problem with Turkish politicians giving speeches in other countries? I assume the content of the speech doesn't incite hatred or break any other law. If you organize a public meeting somewhere and follow all the regulations, how does it matter whether one of the speakers is a politician from Turkey or a poet from Iceland?

Because it can lead to conflict among the pro and anti edrogan supporters among the native-turkish population. No country wants to import turkey's domestic problems or appreciates its citizens voting to abolish democracy, even if it is in a foreign country.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 15:30

Dr Kool-AIDS: Mar 26, 2004

That plus look at the way the AKP has been campaigning in Europe.

https://twitter.com/WashingtonPoint/status/840515924218265600/photo/1

# ? Mar 12, 2017 15:32

Entropist: Dec 1, 2007; I'm very stupid.

Doctor Malaver posted:

So what's the problem with Turkish politicians giving speeches in other countries? I assume the content of the speech doesn't incite hatred or break any other law. If you organize a public meeting somewhere and follow all the regulations, how does it matter whether one of the speakers is a politician from Turkey or a poet from Iceland?

There are several problems, only the first of which is actually a legal issue, the others are more political:

- The Netherlands did negotiate about allowing it, on several conditions related to public safety (i.e. they didn't want huge uncontrolled mobs), but those conditions were violated. This violates the principle of non-intervention in other states' affairs.
- Via official diplomatic channels the Turkish consul had told the Netherlands that nothing would happen, while something clearly was happening - at the same time he was asking people to attend on social media, and convoys with politicians were on their way. This is misleading.
- Turkey tried to blackmail the Netherlands by threatening political and economical sanctions if they did not allow it. They wouldn't want to allow it after that, then it would seem as if such threats are effective.
- It's a few days before the elections in the Netherlands, they don't want campaigns for foreign referenda at this time
- The planned speech would be political campaigning for a law which would be illegal and unconstitutional in the Netherlands.
- They try to claim these people as Turkish citizens, while they are also (or only) Dutch citizens, the government does not like that.
- They don't want a fight between Erdogan supporters and other Turkish people (of which there are quite a few, they are supposed to be safer here).

# ? Mar 12, 2017 15:37

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Doctor Malaver posted:

So what's the problem with Turkish politicians giving speeches in other countries? I assume the content of the speech doesn't incite hatred or break any other law. If you organize a public meeting somewhere and follow all the regulations, how does it matter whether one of the speakers is a politician from Turkey or a poet from Iceland?

Also:

- campaigning on foreign soil is strictly illegal under Turkish law

- it's immoral to give a dictatorship a platform to campaign for more power and further disenfranchisement of the people

- campaigning against democracy is illegal as gently caress in Germany, as long as it concerns the German state; people think it's hypocritical to accept it in Turkey's case

# ? Mar 12, 2017 15:46

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Toplowtech posted:

8 Jean-Luc M�lenchon 432

Well, here is french Bernie Sanders/Jeremy Corbyns. We have supporters of his in this thread I think.

Is it wrong of me to hope he doesn't get 500 mayors endorsing him, so that the left vote isn't split between him and Hamon?

Disclaimer: I'd say the same thing about Hamon if their situation wrt. amount of signatures were reversed.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 16:07

Flowers For Algeria: Dec 3, 2005; I humbly offer my services as forum inquisitor. There is absolutely no way I would abuse this power in any way.

Cat Mattress posted:

Is it wrong of me to hope he doesn't get 500 mayors endorsing him, so that the left vote isn't split between him and Hamon?

Disclaimer: I'd say the same thing about Hamon if their situation wrt. amount of signatures were reversed.

He's already got them.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 16:10

Fiction: Apr 28, 2011

What's hamon's EU stance?

# ? Mar 12, 2017 16:19

cancelope: Sep 23, 2010; The cops want to search the train

Pictures from a protest of the Netherlands today by the AKP's Kocaeli* Youth Branch

*_Nicaea

cancelope fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Mar 12, 2017

# ? Mar 12, 2017 16:28

unpacked robinhood: Feb 18, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

Where is this protest happening, what do the signs say and what's the thing with the oranges ?

# ? Mar 12, 2017 17:13

Namarrgon: Dec 23, 2008; Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

unpacked robinhood posted:

Where is this protest happening, what do the signs say and what's the thing with the oranges ?

First; I'm guessing Rotterdam.
Second; "Fascist Netherlands" and "Fascist Rutte" (Mark Rutte is the prime minister).
Third; Royal family is from the House of Orange and orange (the colour) is the national colour of the Netherlands. I doubt there is deeper symbolism than that.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 17:21

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 20:10

cancelope: Sep 23, 2010; The cops want to search the train

This happened today in Kocaeli/Iznik (historical Nicaea) in western Turkey. The color orange has been associated with the area known as the Netherlands through its royal family's house (The House of Orange-Nassau). The signs say things like "Fascist Holland/Rutte" and a rhyming phrase that literally means , "Orange, stay over there!" which is pretty ironic.

This looks like it happened in Rotterdam last night. (This Twitter account belongs to the Turkish foreign minister.) Fella here is bit

https://twitter.com/MevlutCavusoglu/status/840885370493534209

cancelope fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Mar 12, 2017

# ? Mar 12, 2017 17:22

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