Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans II

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Lord Koth: Jan 8, 2012

The Earth Branch arc is about the only one that would of gone similarly had Orga not formed that alliance, and even that one was indicative of what the problem with Tekkadan is. Just about the only one that bothers to think about what they're doing is Orga, with everyone else just going with the flow. Earth Branch had effectively no good leader, and while the person directly in charge was so-so, there was absolutely no backup plan. Tekkadan Earth Branch was used because it was both in a powerful position, had a good reputation for competence, AND because it had utter poo poo and easily manipulated leadership - it wasn't some spiteful use out of malice or anything.

It's not like they can't think for themselves, as several individuals have demonstrated throughout the series, it's just that it's more comfortable for them to fall into old patterns and let Orga do all the thinking himself, while they don't bother. For Earth Branch, in lieu of Orga they just migrated to the next most charismatic person they came across, again without bothering to think about the situation at all. Those few who both think for themselves and are willing to express said thoughts are all outsiders with little to no influence.

Hell, even if this magical reformation of Gjallarhorn had happened, it's not like things would necessarily get better for them. It's not Gjallarhorn that's been making these rules of exploitation of the colonies and downtrodden - that's purely on the economic blocs. And given the cracks already forming at the end of S1, what with the various blocs starting to rearm, even Gjallarhorn trying to change direction and suddenly crack down on the abuses would be an extremely bloody affair for everyone.

# ? Mar 11, 2017 07:48

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# ? May 9, 2024 23:30

chiasaur11: Oct 22, 2012

paragon1 posted:

Yes, so that people will stop sending Space Pirates and other ne'er-do-wells to murder them and take their poo poo.

Probably would have, after Dawn Horizon got destroyed.

They were the largest pirate group around, and Tekkadan ate them alive. That kind of thing makes people think twice.

The tragedy was that Tekkadan was moving forward. Not even at a slow pace, really. By anyone else's standards, they were a loving rocket, but Orga, poor Orga didn't want to spend one day more than he had to sending his guys to die. And that's leaving more of 'em dead than ever.

Even the Earth arc was probably influenced by the deal with McGillis. Rustal had moles, and I figure he's got enough sense he'd go "Oh, they're on the outs. Guess someone else would be better bait", if that was how it went.

Iron Blooded Orphans is a story of people making deals with the devil, and what happens when the time comes to collect. And it's pretty rare in that kind of story for the deal to be a good call for all concerned.

# ? Mar 11, 2017 11:11

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

chiasaur11 posted:

Probably would have, after Dawn Horizon got destroyed.

They were the largest pirate group around, and Tekkadan ate them alive. That kind of thing makes people think twice.

The tragedy was that Tekkadan was moving forward. Not even at a slow pace, really. By anyone else's standards, they were a loving rocket, but Orga, poor Orga didn't want to spend one day more than he had to sending his guys to die. And that's leaving more of 'em dead than ever.

Even the Earth arc was probably influenced by the deal with McGillis. Rustal had moles, and I figure he's got enough sense he'd go "Oh, they're on the outs. Guess someone else would be better bait", if that was how it went.

Iron Blooded Orphans is a story of people making deals with the devil, and what happens when the time comes to collect. And it's pretty rare in that kind of story for the deal to be a good call for all concerned.

Nah, Dawn Horizon agreed to it after loving Edmonton happened. People would just convince themselves that the brats got lucky, or that they only won because Gjallahorn showed up at a bad time. Just like everyone else who goes up against Tekkadan despite all evidence suggesting that that is a terrible idea.

As for the suggestion that Rustal would have just left them alone on Earth, obviously I can't actually disprove a counterfactual, but it seems very unlikely to me. The dudes trying to maintain the status quo, and Tekkadan is a symbol of that status quo being upended. The fact that they were there doing what they were doing at all would give him a good reason to target them, and that's before you take into account their Teiwaz handler being easily subverted.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 08:09

gyrobot: Nov 16, 2011

MonsterEnvy posted:

Naze himself felt Tekkadan should stop being so aggressive. He told it to Orga. That he seemed to have no clue were he was going and was just in a rush to get there. .

And look what happened to Naze and all of Teiwaz. Jasley was a meager threat to Tekkadan if they act on it. Naze's caused a domino effect because he didnt realize this was a good time to ask for Orgas help and lay low.

At least with the Turbines in exile they some logistical help

# ? Mar 12, 2017 10:12

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

paragon1 posted:

Nah, Dawn Horizon agreed to it after loving Edmonton happened. People would just convince themselves that the brats got lucky, or that they only won because Gjallahorn showed up at a bad time. Just like everyone else who goes up against Tekkadan despite all evidence suggesting that that is a terrible idea.

As for the suggestion that Rustal would have just left them alone on Earth, obviously I can't actually disprove a counterfactual, but it seems very unlikely to me. The dudes trying to maintain the status quo, and Tekkadan is a symbol of that status quo being upended. The fact that they were there doing what they were doing at all would give him a good reason to target them, and that's before you take into account their Teiwaz handler being easily subverted.

He's been specifically targeting McGillis all the way through the season. Compromising Tekkadan was a way to discredit and weaken (and possibly kill) the guy. I suspect that if Tekkadan hadn't worked with McGillis against the Arianrhod Fleet during the Dawn Horizon job, he would probably have still tried to use them against him, because they're powerful weapons for hire, but it would probably have been in a more honest and up-front manner. It's a pretty consistent character trait of Rustal that he looks after his people, whoever they are, and him straight-up hiring Tekkadan would probably have resulted in him trying to turn them into an entire army of Juliettas. Which really isn't that bad a fate, all things considered.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 11:23

Raxivace: Sep 9, 2014

The Gundam preventing Mika from going to hug Kudelia was a nice touch.

Some nice shots of people being dwarfed/isolated by their surroundings this week too. Seems appropriate:

# ? Mar 12, 2017 13:48

Kanos: Sep 6, 2006; was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

I'm really glad they addressed the question of why Orga isn't able to just sell McGillis out at this point, and in a pretty logical and consistent manner.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 13:55

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

Also reminding everyone that Rustal is still a piece of poo poo

# ? Mar 12, 2017 14:01

Cao Ni Ma: May 25, 2010

rudatron posted:

Also reminding everyone that Rustal is still a piece of poo poo

I'll be incredibly down with the series if he manages to make it out unscathed

# ? Mar 12, 2017 14:13

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Cao Ni Ma posted:

I'll be incredibly down with the series if he manages to make it out unscathed

If they're going with the 'rise and fall of Imperial Japan' angle, I don't believe that anyone in the US high command faced any consequences for Hiroshima or Nagasaki - and yeah, I don't want to get into a big argument over whether those were justified in real life, I'm just noting that the show might be drawing from the popular narrative that they were a show of force against a country that was already trying to surrender.

Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Mar 12, 2017

# ? Mar 12, 2017 14:18

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

Darth Walrus posted:

If they're going with the 'rise and fall of Imperial Japan' angle, I don't believe that anyone in the US high command faced any consequences for Hiroshima or Nagasaki - and yeah, I don't want to get into a big argument over whether those were justified in real life, I'm just noting that the show might be drawing from the popular narrative that they were a show of force against a country that was already trying to surrender.

I can't think of anything in the show that would fit this "angle"?

# ? Mar 12, 2017 14:28

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

genericnick posted:

I can't think of anything in the show that would fit this "angle"?

OK, this is fairly loose, but there are enough nods and parallels here that I can't help but wonder.

The official series abbreviation is G-Tekketsu - as in the Tekketsu Kinnotai, the child soldiers who died at Okinawa in the closing months of the Pacific War.

There's a small organisation of children shunned as subhumans, an unusual number of whom have Japanese names (Mikazuki, Itsuka, Akihiro, Shino). They overthrow their oppressive sellout masters (the Meiji Restoration to remove the decaying Western puppet-state that the Tokugawa shogunate had become), and rename themselves in ways that assert their Japanese identity - Chryse Guard Services becomes Tekkadan, the Will o' the Wisp becomes the Isaribi, while adopting a logo of a red symbol on a white field (the fact that it's a flower may be a reference to the Chrysanthemum Seal, the symbol of the Japanese imperial family, who regained power in the Meiji Restoration). They also come into conflict with the current rulers of the world, the decaying, corrupt, aristocratic, and very Western-coded Gjallarhorn (observe, for instance, that while the Barbatos was designed after a young samurai, according to its creator, the Kimaris was explicitly modelled after a European knight). In order to gain an edge, they scramble desperately to acquire as much of their enemies' advanced technology as they can, and make alliances with other, more sympathetic great powers who aren't too happy with Gjallarhorn's status quo. Eventually, they manage a stunning, impossible, and decisive victory that earns them respect, notoriety, and a true place at the table (the Russo-Japanese War).

Unfortunately, their position still isn't stable after this, with other powers resenting their rapid advancement. In a grab for even more power, they deepen their unwise alliance with a charismatic madman who seeks a world built on strength and violence, and are drawn into his disastrous war with his rivals in ~~the West~~ Gjallarhorn (it should probably be mentioned here that their new super-cool mass-produced suits are Shidens, named after Japan's best mass-produced fighters in World War II). The fight goes against them, requiring increasingly extreme and increasingly pointless sacrifices (Norba's death is shot just like a kamikaze mission, complete with the iconic headband being represented by his long, flapping, blood-stained bandages), but their increasingly troubled leader is spurred on by the enthusiasm of his young subordinates (the 'gekokujo' principle), and when they finally try to surrender in order to avoid the fate of their allies, the enemy commander ignores them and gets ready to butcher them in a show of force to cow the rest of the world.

Like I said, there's just enough there to make me consider it as a possible reading of the show. If Tekkadan somehow turn it around in the last few episodes, beat the odds, and win, though, permanently reforming the world, it would be a little harder to read the story this way.

Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Mar 12, 2017

# ? Mar 12, 2017 15:30

Caros: May 14, 2008

Darth Walrus posted:

OK, this is fairly loose, but there are enough nods and parallels here that I can't help but wonder.

The official series abbreviation is G-Tekketsu - as in the Tekketsu Kinnotai, the child soldiers who died at Okinawa in the closing months of the Pacific War.

There's a small organisation of children shunned as subhumans, an unusual number of whom have Japanese names (Mikazuki, Itsuka, Akihiro, Shino). They overthrow their oppressive sellout masters (the Meiji Restoration to remove the decaying Western puppet-state that the Tokugawa shogunate had become), and rename themselves in ways that assert their Japanese identity - Chryse Guard Services becomes Tekkadan, the Will o' the Wisp becomes the Isaribi, while adopting a logo of a red symbol on a white field (the fact that it's a flower may be a reference to the Chrysanthemum Seal, the symbol of the Japanese imperial family, who regained power in the Meiji Restoration). They also come into conflict with the current rulers of the world, the decaying, corrupt, aristocratic, and very Western-coded Gjallarhorn (observe, for instance, that while the Barbatos was designed after a young samurai, according to its creator, the Kimaris was explicitly modelled after a European knight). In order to gain an edge, they scramble desperately to acquire as much of their enemies' advanced technology as they can, and make alliances with other, more sympathetic great powers who aren't too happy with Gjallarhorn's status quo. Eventually, they manage a stunning, impossible, and decisive victory that earns them respect, notoriety, and a true place at the table (the Russo-Japanese War).

Unfortunately, their position still isn't stable after this, with other powers resenting their rapid advancement. In a grab for even more power, they deepen their unwise alliance with a charismatic madman who seeks a world built on strength and violence, and are drawn into his disastrous war with his rivals in ~~the West~~ Gjallarhorn (it should probably be mentioned here that their new super-cool mass-produced suits are Shidens, named after Japan's best mass-produced fighters in World War II). The fight goes against them, requiring increasingly extreme and increasingly pointless sacrifices (Norba's death is shot just like a kamikaze mission, complete with the iconic headband being represented by his long, flapping, blood-stained bandages), but their increasingly troubled leader is spurred on by the enthusiasm of his young subordinates (the 'gekokujo' principle), and when they finally try to surrender in order to avoid the fate of their allies, the enemy commander ignores them and gets ready to butcher them in a show of force to cow the rest of the world.

Like I said, there's just enough there to make me consider it as a possible reading of the show.

Don't forget that the guy they are allied with is a blue eyed, blond haired Aryan god who has spent much of the show working with a guy who literally looks like Hitler.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 15:41

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

Darth Walrus posted:

OK, this is fairly loose, but there are enough nods and parallels here that I can't help but wonder.

The official series abbreviation is G-Tekketsu - as in the Tekketsu Kinnotai, the child soldiers who died at Okinawa in the closing months of the Pacific War.

There's a small organisation of children shunned as subhumans, an unusual number of whom have Japanese names (Mikazuki, Itsuka, Akihiro, Shino). They overthrow their oppressive sellout masters (the Meiji Restoration to remove the decaying Western puppet-state that the Tokugawa shogunate had become), and rename themselves in ways that assert their Japanese identity - Chryse Guard Services becomes Tekkadan, the Will o' the Wisp becomes the Isaribi, while adopting a logo of a red symbol on a white field (the fact that it's a flower may be a reference to the Chrysanthemum Seal, the symbol of the Japanese imperial family, who regained power in the Meiji Restoration). They also come into conflict with the current rulers of the world, the decaying, corrupt, aristocratic, and very Western-coded Gjallarhorn (observe, for instance, that while the Barbatos was designed after a young samurai, according to its creator, the Kimaris was explicitly modelled after a European knight). In order to gain an edge, they scramble desperately to acquire as much of their enemies' advanced technology as they can, and make alliances with other, more sympathetic great powers who aren't too happy with Gjallarhorn's status quo. Eventually, they manage a stunning, impossible, and decisive victory that earns them respect, notoriety, and a true place at the table (the Russo-Japanese War).

Unfortunately, their position still isn't stable after this, with other powers resenting their rapid advancement. In a grab for even more power, they deepen their unwise alliance with a charismatic madman who seeks a world built on strength and violence, and are drawn into his disastrous war with his rivals in ~~the West~~ Gjallarhorn (it should probably be mentioned here that their new super-cool mass-produced suits are Shidens, named after Japan's best mass-produced fighters in World War II). The fight goes against them, requiring increasingly extreme and increasingly pointless sacrifices (Norba's death is shot just like a kamikaze mission, complete with the iconic headband being represented by his long, flapping, blood-stained bandages), but their increasingly troubled leader is spurred on by the enthusiasm of his young subordinates (the 'gekokujo' principle), and when they finally try to surrender in order to avoid the fate of their allies, the enemy commander ignores them and gets ready to butcher them in a show of force to cow the rest of the world.

Like I said, there's just enough there to make me consider it as a possible reading of the show. If Tekkadan somehow turn it around in the last few episodes, beat the odds, and win, though, permanently reforming the world, it would be a little harder to read the story this way.

There's some influence, but there's one problem with this theory - who is kudelia supposed to be?

The bigger theme of this show has been what it means to be family. So I think the current arc is just an examination of how unfortunately toxic some ideas of family can be (criticism is defeatism, collective responsibility and guilt, etc.)

# ? Mar 12, 2017 15:56

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

rudatron posted:

There's some influence, but there's one problem with this theory - who is kudelia supposed to be?

The bigger theme of this show has been what it means to be family. So I think the current arc is just an examination of how unfortunately toxic some ideas of family can be (criticism is defeatism, collective responsibility and guilt, etc.)

One of the democrats/corporatists who were instrumental in Japan's rise, but got sidelined by the country's turn towards militarism, maybe? It's hard to say, but she's still a Martian, and did get lumped in with Tekkadan pretty hard this episode.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 16:01

MonsterEnvy: Feb 4, 2012; Shocked I tell you

Anyway they have a good plan now. And seen to be ditching McGillis.

Glad despite what we thought Orga was not doubling down.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 17:58

NutritiousSnack: Jul 12, 2011

Kuroyama posted:

Let's be honest, Kudelia is Hillary Clinton, McGillis is Donald Trump, and Tekkadan are "middle-class" (actually poor) Americans. Looking at the situation objectively, from the outside, we all know that Kudelia is the best hope for Tekkadan and others like them. But McGillis was able to sway Tekkadan to his side by promising a ton of bullshit that would only happen at their expense, and Kudelia didn't really present her side in a way that would make Tekkadan wanna side with her anymore.

Kuedlia hung out with Tekkadan and pretended to care about them at all, so there goes that theory. Rustval is Hillary Clinton, and will somehow gently caress up everything and then vomit/collapse from dehydration.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 18:20

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

Darth Walrus posted:

It's a pretty consistent character trait of Rustal that he looks after his people, whoever they are, and him straight-up hiring Tekkadan would probably have resulted in him trying to turn them into an entire army of Juliettas. Which really isn't that bad a fate, all things considered.

HAHAHAHAHA

no

# ? Mar 12, 2017 20:55

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

paragon1 posted:

HAHAHAHAHA

no

Pitched battle between two Gjallarhorn fleets plus explosive allegations of serious crimes on both sides does tend to change a situation rather.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 20:59

jackhunter64: Aug 28, 2008; Keep it up son, take a look at what you could have won

Orga's pleading phone call sounding a lot like Jasley's final words. :ohdear:

# ? Mar 12, 2017 21:17

Lestaki: Nov 6, 2009

Pretty fun episode. Glad Orga tried to do the right thing, even if he was shut down.

The Tekkadan as Imperial Japan angle is pretty interesting and makes a lot of sense to me. It remains to be seen whether that will be taken to its thematic conclusion or whether Tekkadan simply borrows the imperial symbols in order to glorify their deeds while Gjallahorn is coded as western/bad.

As for Arianrhod, Rustal is pushing his luck. Tekkadan still have two Gundam including the invincible Barbatos and are really more trouble than they're worth to put down.

If they hadn't re-calibrated expectations by the end of this episode I would assume Mika was going to kamikaze to kill Rustal and win the war or whatever. I'm still not discounting that possibility, but Tekkadan now has an alternative endgame. Flying to earth in order to commit identity fraud is a pretty hysterical game-plan and I think it would be interesting if they actually followed through with that ending. Tekkadan loses everything but keeps their lives and starts over, presumably taking it slow this time and not trusting any charismatic blondes who make offers that sound too good to be true.

McGillis feels like a loose end at this point but I assume he's going to have prepared something during the time he spent away from Tekkadan for the battle to come. We're on Mars now- has the time finally come for McGillis to unleash a horde of mobile armour? It's my favourite stupid fan theory. I would laugh so hard.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 21:30

Psycho Landlord: Oct 10, 2012; What are you gonna do, dance with me?

jackhunter64 posted:

Orga's pleading phone call sounding a lot like Jasley's final words.

Not really. Difference was Jasley was asking them to let bygones be bygones after directly attacking and killing off several of Tekkadan's close allies, and drop the whole thing simply because he was losing, with the only reparation he was willing to pay being a finger.

Orga offered the actual point of contention (McGillis) as a peace offering and then attempted to lay down his own life as soon as it clicked that Rustal was planning on killing them all, and he was likely prepared to do that before the call even connected.

Sure, they were both reduced to begging in the end, but what they were begging for can't really be equated.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 21:34

Tamba: Apr 5, 2010

jackhunter64 posted:

Orga's pleading phone call sounding a lot like Jasley's final words.

Jasley's final words were the opposite of "You can kill me, but please let my subordinates go"

# ? Mar 12, 2017 21:35

jackhunter64: Aug 28, 2008; Keep it up son, take a look at what you could have won

Psycho Landlord posted:

Sure, they were both reduced to begging in the end, but what they were begging for can't really be equated.

This was more what I was getting at, with the cutting off of hands and heads a thousand times stuff.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 22:31

Argas: Jan 13, 2008; SRW Fanatic

I like that the public (at least within Gjallarhorn, probably) revelation that McGillis was just Iznario's personal favorite boy to abuse is met with Gjallarhorn considering him no longer the successor of the Fareed family and thus a FAKE GJALLARHORN.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 22:33

MonsterEnvy: Feb 4, 2012; Shocked I tell you

Argas posted:

I like that the public (at least within Gjallarhorn, probably) revelation that McGillis was just Iznario's personal favorite boy to abuse is met with Gjallarhorn considering him no longer the successor of the Fareed family and thus a FAKE GJALLARHORN.

Iznario apparently did care for McGillis in a son like way. Wanting their relationship to be more casual. The bruises were from him being too rough. Not that it really makes their relationship any better. It's a horrible that Iznario pretty much had McGillis as a boy toy and pretty much worse that he thought he had a good thing going with McGillis and that McGillis did not hate him.

As for the news the fake Gjallerhorn thing. The guy attempted a coup so yes they would be much less forgiving to him. Also McGillis probably should have tried to deal with Iznario in some way. He knocked Iznario down from his pedestal and the guy now had nothing to lose from revealing his true relationship with the man who brought him down.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 22:43

Midjack: Dec 24, 2007

MonsterEnvy posted:

He knocked Iznario down from his pedestal and the guy now had nothing to lose from revealing his true relationship with the man who brought him down.

Besides outing himself as a kid fucker, but that may be okay for the aristocracy of the world.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 22:46

RottenK: Feb 17, 2011; Sexy bad choices

FAILED NOJOE

Argas posted:

I like that the public (at least within Gjallarhorn, probably) revelation that McGillis was just Iznario's personal favorite boy to abuse is met with Gjallarhorn considering him no longer the successor of the Fareed family and thus a FAKE GJALLARHORN.

More proof that McGillis should get to win and burn everything down, IMO.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 22:47

Argas: Jan 13, 2008; SRW Fanatic

Strictly speaking, the personal issues that drove McGillis down the path he took isn't really something Gjallarhorn needs to consider when dealing with him. He's a threat here and now. McGillis isn't even a real Seven Stars and he's a traitor to boot!

But it really highlights how hosed up and corrupt Gjallarhorn is when its leading members, who are held up as exemplars to the rest of the organization, can get away with doing awful awful things. And you can bet that there'll be no introspection about what happened at all. Now Rustal can use McGillis being an insidious FAKE GJALLARHORN to justify everything that happened. They're facing someone who was determined to bring down Gjallarhorn from within, who was never dedicated to the ideals it held dear, etc.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 22:50

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

Midjack posted:

Besides outing himself as a kid fucker, but that may be okay for the aristocracy of the world.

In McGillis's flashbacks, the child brothel was a fancy mansion with butlers and poo poo. They were catering to a wealthy clientele.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 22:53

Lestaki: Nov 6, 2009

Iznario is a huge piece of poo poo but I did laugh at him looking smug in his exile mansion. Basically McGillis needs to get better at following through when he betrays people, a few more corpses and he would have won easily.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 23:05

Kanos: Sep 6, 2006; was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

MonsterEnvy posted:

Iznario apparently did care for McGillis in a son like way. Wanting their relationship to be more casual. The bruises were from him being too rough. Not that it really makes their relationship any better. It's a horrible that Iznario pretty much had McGillis as a boy toy and pretty much worse that he thought he had a good thing going with McGillis and that McGillis did not hate him.

As for the news the fake Gjallerhorn thing. The guy attempted a coup so yes they would be much less forgiving to him. Also McGillis probably should have tried to deal with Iznario in some way. He knocked Iznario down from his pedestal and the guy now had nothing to lose from revealing his true relationship with the man who brought him down.

To be honest, Iznario's confession only really matters because of the horrible position McGillis is in right now. If McGillis was still a secure up-and-coming member of the Seven Stars or if his coup had succeeded, Iznario coming out and going "NO HE'S JUST SOME CHILD WHORE I PICKED UP REALLY" would have mattered not a whit because either McGillis would have been in a position to suppress it and/or nobody would have believed a retired old man's rantings about a respected and powerful military official. It's just that since McGillis is now on the back foot Rustal is now looking for propaganda victories to make it so Gjallarhorn comes out of his debacle largely intact so he needed a convenient way to otherize McGillis and say "yeah he's not like the rest of us don't worry". It's the same logic as to why he's turning Tekkadan into a scapegoat, so that he can blame the civil war on the corrupt influence of outsiders and criminals rather than an internal power grab in a corrupt shitpile of an aristocracy.

Rustal's realpolitik is impressively nasty and assholish.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 23:18

Argas: Jan 13, 2008; SRW Fanatic

It would've looked bad if Iznario had died after being exiled. If he had somehow gotten caught up in the Battle of Edmonton however...

The crux of the issue is that McGillis put too much stock in an idea that Gjallarhorn held but did not conform to. Bael did not give him the absolute authority he assumed it would. Before that he was well on the way to taking a lot of power within Gjallarhorn itself. He had the Mars branch's commander on his side, he had three of the Seven Stars families in his control, and had command of one of Gjallarhorn's fleets. He relied too much on Bael turning more of Gjallarhorn to his side. Had he not been captured by the sight of Barbatos' display of power and desired to take Bael sooner, had Gaelio not confronted him and forced him to hasten his plans, and had Rustal and Iok not given the reformers so much ammo, he wouldn't be in this situation.

Gaelio being alive was the big thing that forced him to accelerate his plans and Bael was what his plans relied on given that he had no more time to climb the ranks.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 23:24

MonsterEnvy: Feb 4, 2012; Shocked I tell you

Midjack posted:

Besides outing himself as a kid fucker, but that may be okay for the aristocracy of the world.

Well yeah but already he lost all of his status and power already. So he has nothing to lose from revealing that.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 23:33

MonsterEnvy: Feb 4, 2012; Shocked I tell you

Argas posted:

Gaelio being alive was the big thing that forced him to accelerate his plans and Bael was what his plans relied on given that he had no more time to climb the ranks.

Ironically this was not actually a problem. Gaelio did not plan to act against him until he felt that McGillis really did have bad intentions. Had he waited Gaelio would not have acted against him for a while. After all if Gaelio really wanted to just bring McGillis down from the start he could have just revealed his survival right after he was nearly killed ruining all of McGillis plans. Instead he waited years before acting to try and understand McGillis' intentions better.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 23:39

Argas: Jan 13, 2008; SRW Fanatic

MonsterEnvy posted:

Ironically this was not actually a problem. Gaelio did not plan to act against him until he felt that McGillis really did have bad intentions. Had he waited Gaelio would not have acted against him for a while. After all if Gaelio really wanted to just bring McGillis down from the start he could have just revealed his survival right after he was nearly killed ruining all of McGillis plans. Instead he waited years before acting to try and understand McGillis' intentions better.

That said, it did alert him that Rustal was on to him and what could've been interpreted as Rustal trying to block a rival for power previously would now be seen as Rustal deliberately targeting him. Time simply wasn't on McGillis' side with or without Gaelio because Gjallarhorn's higher ranks didn't suffer much from attrition. The Battle of Edmonton and the events leading up to it was huge for him, allowing him to take control of the Fareed family and giving him control of the Issue and Bauduin families. It also opened a spot of commander of the OEORJF (jesus christ).

# ? Mar 12, 2017 23:44

MonsterEnvy: Feb 4, 2012; Shocked I tell you

Lestaki posted:

Iznario is a huge piece of poo poo but I did laugh at him looking smug in his exile mansion. Basically McGillis needs to get better at following through when he betrays people, a few more corpses and he would have won easily.

Here is the biggest thing. McGillis killing Carta and Gaelio was completely unneeded to his plan. And those crimes are the major things that are bringing him down.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 23:45

OnimaruXLR: Sep 15, 2007; Lurklurklurklurklurk

MonsterEnvy posted:

Anyway they have a good plan now. And seen to be ditching McGillis.

Glad despite what we thought Orga was not doubling down.

huh

Is there a chance that the finale will involve McGillis coming after the Tekkadan for their betrayal, and then Mikazuki taking him down in a really public way that redeems their image? With the possiblity of McGillis doing the whole thing on purpose, to raise the child soldiers he idolizes back into the position of being the heroes of Mars?

I mean, otherwise the Tekkadan are just going to be fugitives or dead. Gjallahorn gets to maintain it's "gently caress the poor Martians (sometimes literally)" status quo. And McGillis just ends up as little more than a non-raving loon who is killed to make Rustal look important.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 23:49

Argas: Jan 13, 2008; SRW Fanatic

MonsterEnvy posted:

Here is the biggest thing. McGillis killing Carta and Gaelio was completely unneeded to his plan. And those crimes are the major things that are bringing him down.

Killing Carta opened up a spot for him to be promoted to. Killing Gaelio was more for the long-term to secure the Bauduin family.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 23:52

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# ? May 9, 2024 23:30

Lestaki: Nov 6, 2009

Argas posted:

Killing Carta opened up a spot for him to be promoted to. Killing Gaelio was more for the long-term to secure the Bauduin family.

Killing Carta had some utility but McGillis was besties with Gaelio and engaged to Almiria, so his alliance with the Bauduin was pretty set in stone as long as he was willing to manipulate Gaelio. Not particularly difficult wrt season one Gaelio who admired McGillis and just wanted to be reform-Gjallahorn buddies.

# ? Mar 12, 2017 23:59

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