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So, turns out with the Von Carstein hero building and the tech that reduces hero recruit costs you can recruit vampires for free.
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Mar 13, 2017 16:53
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I really like the fantasy setting over 40k because 40k is up it's own rear end about how grimdark and mature it is. Fantasy is a crapsack world but it's a crapsack world filled with people trying to hold things together and improve it.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:15
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unwantedplatypus posted:I really like the fantasy setting over 40k because 40k is up it's own rear end about how grimdark and mature it is. Fantasy is a crapsack world but it's a crapsack world filled with people trying to hold things together and improve it. Definitely agreed.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:16
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unwantedplatypus posted:I really like the fantasy setting over 40k because 40k is up it's own rear end about how grimdark and mature it is. Fantasy is a crapsack world but it's a crapsack world filled with people trying to hold things together and improve it. Yeah the old world gets a bit grimderp sometimes (I remember one of the bretonnian books going on about how a peasant got a pig and that made them the richest peasant ever or something) but it's still way better than 40k
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Mar 13, 2017 17:19
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The peasant that invented the Trebuchet was rewarded with a fatted pig and two gold coins, which was more wealth than he ever had in his lifetime. As much as they talk about class divide in Brettonia, I get the sense that the countryside itself is pretty fertile; hard to maintain the status quo if they're having Irish Potato Famine levels of disasters ever other year. So as far as peasants go, I wonder just how awful it is compared to other nations. And they apparently do have some inkling of a middle class which I imagine are the source of some of the more prestigious peasant military jobs (like Yeomen).
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Mar 13, 2017 17:26
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To be honest it feels like Warhammer and wh40k both were meant to be a little silly but 40k lost every crumb of self awareness at some point while warhammer kept some
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Mar 13, 2017 17:30
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The Bretonnian cities are just as lousy with merchants as the Empire ones are. They have some funny sumptuary laws that they have to pay lip service to, but they look jealously on places like Marienburg. If top nobles weren't superhuman paragons of virtue then there would probably be a lot more unrest in Bretonnia.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:30
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Mr Gentleman posted:To be honest it feels like Warhammer and wh40k both were meant to be a little silly but 40k lost every crumb of self awareness at some point while warhammer kept some They've brought some of it back with the Regimental Standard though.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:37
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Panfilo posted:The peasant that invented the Trebuchet was rewarded with a fatted pig and two gold coins, which was more wealth than he ever had in his lifetime. It also helps that Life magic the Damsels have access to has powers that directly benefit crop development, so even in non-magical poor weather it is still rich land. it is just a hugely divided society and peasants have little freedom of movement, so they can't really trade in cities for gold, and if they tried to they would be arrested for stealing themselves (and crops) from their liege. Plus they have to give most of their crops to their lieges, who then trade it to finance their retinue, weapons and all those fantasy Disney castles they have.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:44
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i like bretonnia where you have oppressed poo poo peasants with autonomous collectives but the twist being that the nobility by and large is actually the real loving deal, riding across the sky full of gallant with mighty glowing lances and the problem is not that society is bad because greedy evil people and more because poo poo is actually a little complex (like life magic corps and actual decent nobility resulting in stagnation of social orders) rich burlew, who writes the Order of the Stick, had a fun series of articles on RPG stuff and worldbuilding. one thing i liked was his advice on villains, since on top of being smart, had a fun anecdote where he had two bad guys without much of a practical reason to not betray each other, and yet were friends and so were planning on divvying up their conquests. the players assumed "oh the bad guys must be planning to betray each other" and so tried to get one to turn on the other, and instead got led into an ambush. point being, 40k and some of whf i can find tiresome because a lot of the grimdark poo poo is just so loving rote and predictable. the bad guys always back stab and they do it constantly and for sometimes stupid reasons because they're bad and chaotic and poo poo. and all the nobles are corrupt, and doing good is naive and dumb, and chaos will win because everyone is really evil, yadda yadda. you lose out on a lot of possibility of interesting situations or making actual relatable stories or messages, and create boring bad guys when you get so dedicated to being hardcore or whatever, but some people just cant comprehend all characters and settings not behaving like they "should". Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 17:47
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furthermore, can you loving believe at one point, GW tried to put the axe to doomwheels for being too silly? loving philistines.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:51
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Tiler Kiwi posted:furthermore, can you loving believe at one point, GW tried to put the axe to doomwheels for being too silly? loving philistines. I still want my snotling pump wagon.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:55
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Panfilo posted:The peasant that invented the Trebuchet was rewarded with a fatted pig and two gold coins, which was more wealth than he ever had in his lifetime. yeah that's what I'm referring to GW is lousy with the kind of writers who think that you can make any piece of writing or worldbuilding more badass by adding some extra superlatives
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Mar 13, 2017 17:57
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Tiler Kiwi posted:furthermore, can you loving believe at one point, GW tried to put the axe to doomwheels for being too silly? loving philistines. I hope when they bring skaven in, that running down enemies/unlucky clanrats with doomwheels leaves them comically flattened, like something out of looney tunes.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:59
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I don't listen to the pre-battle chatter between units enough but I do look forward to it when Skaven come around, I want to hear everyone's reactions to rat men and whatever they do since there's also lines about "they're using magic!"  I hope an ability on all Skaven units is "musk of fear"
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Mar 13, 2017 18:01
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It's supposed to be feudalism as it was intended: the peasants work the land and pay taxes in exchange for protection by fabulously wealthy and particularly martial nobles who focus on chivalry and martial prowess above all in their pursuit of murdering orcs and ugly things. However, instead of real-life Christian kings who just sit around eating and drinking and loving lesser nobles and hookers, Bretonnian nobles actually are super humans who must and do murder orcs, wood-men, demons, and devil-worshipping satyrs constantly to protect the peasantry. So, the peasants are happily stinky and subdued because just outside of their farm there are about a billion things looking to rape and murder them. On their farm, they have pretty nobility who rudely but effectively protect them and poo poo life magic all over their farms.
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Mar 13, 2017 18:05
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Yeah, one of the major differences is that in Warhams Fantasy, there is not only war. poo poo is bad and often violent, but there is generally speaking still a life beyond the horror. Sure, your average imperial halberdier will have to contend with otherwordly daemons and monsters, giving him only a fairly miniscule chance of survival. But if he actually does pull through, you could reasonably see him finishing up his tour of duty and settle down somewhere in Reikland to raise chickens. It's a society where war is a near-constant factor, but it still is an actual, functional society. Same goes for most of the other factions, excepting perhaps orcs and anything chaos-related. Contrast that with 40k, where everybody is all about war all the time. In the Imperium, if you're not on the frontlines, there's about a 99% chance you're stuck a forge or hive world living in abject misery to somehow contribute to the war effort. And outside of maybe the Tau, every single other faction has made war more or less their one and only purpose.
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Mar 13, 2017 18:05
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No peace. Just war. And rat scum.
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Mar 13, 2017 18:08
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jokes posted:It's supposed to be feudalism as it was intended: the peasants work the land and pay taxes in exchange for protection by fabulously wealthy and particularly martial nobles who focus on chivalry and martial prowess above all in their pursuit of murdering orcs and ugly things. this is fine but it works much better if you're like "being a peasant sucks" rather than "being a peasant MEGA SUCKS IF A PEASANT SO MUCH AS SEES A LOAF OF BREAD THEY CELEBRATE FOR DAYS"
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Mar 13, 2017 18:08
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erm the orks clearly like going fast as well
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Mar 13, 2017 18:08
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The cool poo poo about Warhammer fantasy is that it could be what it'd be like to live in a world where demons and skellingtons and goat-men run around starting poo poo all the time. You could reasonably see a guy work as a low level apprentice for years, get tangled up with the war effort during another goddamn incursion by Chaos and lose an eye and see some heavy poo poo, then go home and get married and become a relatively successful weaver or whatever who uses military contacts to maintain and supply clothing for the military, and have his kid be magically inclined and go off to be a wizard in the colleges. Dad gets called off to war again as a veteran and, if he comes home, peacefully retire on a small fortune on a farm in the Reikland when his metal wizard son comes home to visit and fixes all his hosed up shop equipment for him here and there and then die of old age. LIke, the war element is a necessity and a constant presence but it's not the bullshit ALWAYS ON ALL THE TIME 100% OF EFFORT that 40k has. Some people never get involved with war. A lot of peasants never see outside their farm, despite 40-foot bird men storming their liegelord's castle and orcs marauding across the land. Jeb Bush 2012 posted:this is fine but it works much better if you're like "being a peasant sucks" rather than "being a peasant MEGA SUCKS IF A PEASANT SO MUCH AS SEES A LOAF OF BREAD THEY CELEBRATE FOR DAYS" Yeah, it's supposed to be the extreme version of functional feudalism which is INCREDIBLE disparity between peasantry and nobility.
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Mar 13, 2017 18:13
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Mordja posted:They've brought some of it back with the Regimental Standard though. hey that's neat and I'm glad they do stuff like that again 
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Mar 13, 2017 18:16
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For the time period they're emulating (late Renaissance) the amount of war is not crazy. Wars were common, and the Holy Roman Empire had a religious civil war that lasted thirty loving years.
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Mar 13, 2017 18:26
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wiegieman posted:For the time period they're emulating (late Renaissance) Early modern 
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Mar 13, 2017 18:28
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my dad posted:Early modern early modern/late antiquity/bronze age, depending on whether you mean the empire or bretonnia or the chaos dwarves
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Mar 13, 2017 18:31
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:early modern/late antiquity/bronze age, depending on whether you mean the empire or bretonnia or the chaos dwarves The chaos dwarves are simultaneously the bronze age and the height of the industrial revolution: endless factories toiling with black clouds of smoke blotting out the skies and no health standards whatsoever. Of course, the dwarves don't work in there, that's for slaves.
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Mar 13, 2017 18:52
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hobgoblins are just a stealth allegory for the lumpenproletariat
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Mar 13, 2017 18:58
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Tiler Kiwi posted:hobgoblins are just a stealth allegory for the lumpenproletariat the chaos dwarves are enslaving huge numbers of people to run all this industry with no apparent purpose beyond making more industry, that is late capitalism as gently caress
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Mar 13, 2017 18:59
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:the chaos dwarves are enslaving huge numbers of people to run all this industry with no apparent purpose beyond making more industry, that is late capitalism as gently caress But they made the DoomTrains run on time!
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Mar 13, 2017 19:00
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Tiler Kiwi posted:hobgoblins are just a stealth allegory for the lumpenproletariat They're lumpen all right! :iamafag:
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Mar 13, 2017 19:02
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you know, it'd actually be kind of brilliant for the chaos corrupted evil version of dwarves to just be dwarves who decided that greed is good and thus turned themselves into robber barons and/or hedge fund managers e: yeah this
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Mar 13, 2017 19:02
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Weissritter posted:Unit upkeep be damned. A pure living saints army is a thing of beauty (grail knights, grail guardians). Immune to vigor makes it so you can cycle charge the knights forever without stats debuff. When I went on the Errantry War, my army consisted of Louen, a Lore of Life Damsel, a high-level Paladin, the Green Knight, six units each of Grail Knights and Grail Guardians and four units of Royal Pegasus Knights. Maximum chivalry. 
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Mar 13, 2017 19:04
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Tiler Kiwi posted:you know, it'd actually be kind of brilliant for the chaos corrupted evil version of dwarves to just be dwarves who decided that greed is good and thus turn them into robber barons and/or hedge fund managers that would explain why they wear chaos top hats 
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Mar 13, 2017 19:05
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Perestroika posted:Yeah, one of the major differences is that in Warhams Fantasy, there is not only war. poo poo is bad and often violent, but there is generally speaking still a life beyond the horror. Sure, your average imperial halberdier will have to contend with otherwordly daemons and monsters, giving him only a fairly miniscule chance of survival. But if he actually does pull through, you could reasonably see him finishing up his tour of duty and settle down somewhere in Reikland to raise chickens. It's a society where war is a near-constant factor, but it still is an actual, functional society. Same goes for most of the other factions, excepting perhaps orcs and anything chaos-related. It's a shame 40K went that way tbh. The Eisenhorn books have some good space detective poo poo going on and its mostly on worlds that don't have any war anywhere near them, they are just lovely cyberpunk societies.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:06
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40k's fluff went from a pretty decent 'maybe the regressive, theocratic fascist xenophobe goodguys aren't actually the good guys *wink wink*' story that didn't take itself too seriously to 'check out these badass regressive, theocratic fascist xenophobe goodguys!' I think it's because their writers are GW fanbois who didn't quite get the joke when they were 14 and sure af don't get it now.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:06
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Tiler Kiwi posted:you know, it'd actually be kind of brilliant for the chaos corrupted evil version of dwarves to just be dwarves who decided that greed is good and thus turned themselves into robber barons and/or hedge fund managers The crazy thing about chaos dwarves is that they are actually more sane then regular dwarves. They don't spend years thinning their numbers doing stupid things like fighting their best allies over being underpaid by a penny or having their best join a suicidal death cult for loving up once. Though they do have a variant of that, except it involves wearing a heated metal plate strapped to your face, but on the plus side, it only lasts a decade or so and once it's through your fuckup is forgotten. I mean, hell, actually they're comparatively the least prone to gently caress ups out of all the factions. They had one major disaster of note that they caused. compared to the 3-6 average most factions have.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:08
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:that would explain why they wear chaos top hats i'm going to buy GW just to make this interpretation canon
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Mar 13, 2017 19:08
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There will inevitably be a 'bigger more blinged out hats for chaos dwarves' mod and it will be glorious 
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Mar 13, 2017 19:11
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Tiler Kiwi posted:i'm going to buy GW just to make this interpretation canon Good news! They have legions of slaves working day in day out, while they reap the profits and sell off all the surplus to genocidal murderers. Not to mention consisting of insular clans utterly removed from the pain their society inflicts and sacrificing the blood of their workers to their graven idols of gold. The chaos dwarves as capitalists interpretation is already canon! The arms dealer bit is serious, they're responsible for all the shiny black armor, weapons and hellcannons that chaos gets.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:14
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Orks are of course mid-to-late 21st century.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:18
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