|
Milky Moor posted:you're actually all wrong about bobbie because she's a Broke Brain Valkyrie Hitler, sorry In the books she's a Broke Brain Succubus Pol Pot.
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 07:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 23:50 |
|
|
I just wanted to say that I recognized the bar music in Se. 2, Ep. 3 where Miller invites Amos to drink with him. It's Santigold's "Starstruck", which is fitting. Wouldn't it be neat if all the music in the series was space-themed?
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 07:48
|
|
|
Big Mean Jerk posted:I'm ok with Holden the character, but that actor is easily the weakest link in the chain when it comes to talent. It would be a bigger issue if the rest of the cast wasn't picking up more than their fair share of the slack. Holden's character is super vanilla, he's doing fine imo
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:40
|
|
|
GREAT WHITE NORTH posted:I just wanted to say that I recognized the bar music in Se. 2, Ep. 3 where Miller invites Amos to drink with him. It's Santigold's "Starstruck", which is fitting. Wouldn't it be neat if all the music in the series was space-themed? In the books everyone listens to the Space Girls, a Spice Girls cover band who only perform naked in zero g.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:43
|
|
|
Spoiler that poo poo man cmon
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 16:07
|
|
|
el dingo posted:Spoiler that poo poo man cmon The Expanse takes place in space Awwww poo poo spoilers
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 16:25
|
|
|
Milky Moor posted:you're actually all wrong about bobbie because she's a Broke Brain Valkyrie Hitler, sorry Loosely based on the end boss to Wolfenstein 3D (It's Hitler in a mech suit)
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 16:35
|
|
|
It's such a shame they cut Yojimbo
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 16:41
|
|
|
el dingo posted:Spoiler that poo poo man cmon Lol if you don't have Number Ten Cocks ignored already.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 17:02
|
|
|
Professor Shark posted:Holden's character is super vanilla, he's doing fine imo His silly low, raspy angry voice was a bit overused last episode. Every scene was just rumble grumble. But that's the only time that he's gotten on my nerves.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 17:04
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:Not sure I agree about Holden. You say he always does the right thing, but he was about to execute the remaining proto scientist just like Miller executed the lead scientist. And he gave Miller a really hard time about doing that, so he knows it's a lovely thing to do. But he was going to do it anyway, and would have if Dawes had not gotten to the guy first. The problem is that the source material is on par with an ambitious 14 year olds creative writing project. The characters exist to serve the plot in the most hamfisted ways. They're dumb when the plot needs them to be oblivious, and brilliant when the plot needs them to find a resolution. You have characters claiming the moral high ground and berating someone who used violence to solve a problem in a desperate moment. Then two pages later they themselves do something out of stupidity and selfishness that results in the death of thousands but that's okay just because. Season one worked because someone up the food chain of the show recognized that the books were a kernel of a neat idea buried under a pile of terrible writing, and they did a great job salvaging the bits that worked. I don't know if that person quit or just gave up, but either way there's a lot of crap creeping it's way into season two that should have never made the transition from the page.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 17:20
|
|
|
Book Holden is basically Superman, he fights for good, justice and the American way. Show Holden is Man of Steel era Superman, the same but with a dose of teen angst and a raspy voice.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 17:21
|
|
|
Frankenstyle posted:You have characters claiming the moral high ground and berating someone who used violence to solve a problem in a desperate moment. Then two pages later they themselves do something out of stupidity and selfishness that results in the death of thousands but that's okay just because.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 17:54
|
|
|
I do think the prose is kind of clunky at times, especially the dialogue. I don't have a great example at hand, but occasionally the characters say things that make me think "nobody read this aloud before publishing." Like, it'd be okay in an e-mail or something, but it sounds awkward as a thing that's supposed to be coming out of someone's mouth.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 18:08
|
|
|
The prose in the expanse cannot be described as great, it's functional, somewhat dry and very very nerdy in its tone. Even when it describes epic moments or visages it's never really evocative, however, I don't think this applies to the plot itself and the character's motivations, for what it's worth I think everyone tends to stick to their character traits and behave the way you'd expect them to.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 18:24
|
|
|
Lord Hydronium posted:Characters acting in a way inconsistent with values they preach to others? Whoa now, no one would ever do that, that must be some bad writing. No it's blatantly in service to the plot. It's so over done it starts to feel like maybe it's a heavy handed attempt to illustrate how people justify their actions on a personal sliding scale, but six books in and it becomes pretty clear that it's just a case of the characters being whoever the author needs to deflect the plot in the desired direction. The characters being consistent is a illusion created by them being consistently inconsistent. Lord Frankenstyle fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Mar 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 19:44
|
|
|
Bobbie is a marine literally the only thing they teach marines, including male marines, is that the enemy is bad and killing them is the only way to get poo poo done. Do you think they are made privy to who shot first or who escalated what? If shes gung ho about killing earthers its because thats what was drilled into her head as a marine. Seems pretty simple right?
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 20:21
|
|
|
The show likes to create a lot of unnecessary drama. In the books they resolve stuff like landing at Tycho for the first time and Bobbie's debrief very quickly and painlessly. Thorsson/Bobby and Fred/Holden were way too suspicious of eachother for no reason in the show
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 20:49
|
|
|
4000 Dollar Suit posted:Bobbie is a marine literally the only thing they teach marines, including male marines, is that the enemy is bad and killing them is the only way to get poo poo done. Do you think they are made privy to who shot first or who escalated what? If shes gung ho about killing earthers its because thats what was drilled into her head as a marine. Seems pretty simple right? It's really only a problem if it turns out she has no arc and doesn't change.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 20:51
|
|
|
Frankenstyle posted:The problem is that the source material is on par with an ambitious 14 year olds creative writing project. The characters exist to serve the plot in the most hamfisted ways. They're dumb when the plot needs them to be oblivious, and brilliant when the plot needs them to find a resolution. You have characters claiming the moral high ground and berating someone who used violence to solve a problem in a desperate moment. Then two pages later they themselves do something out of stupidity and selfishness that results in the death of thousands but that's okay just because. But Cortazar isn't even in the books, right? So the incongruence of Holden's behavior can't really be blamed on the books, at least for that particular scene. (I never read the books so I don't know.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 21:33
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:But Cortazar isn't even in the books, right? So the incongruence of Holden's behavior can't really be blamed on the books, at least for that particular scene. I've just finished book 2 and I can say so far they're pretty good regardless of what he says. To their credit they handle a lot of situations in less dumb and dramatic ways.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 21:37
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:But Cortazar isn't even in the books, right? So the incongruence of Holden's behavior can't really be blamed on the books, at least for that particular scene. Cortazar is featured in one of the novellas, the other two of which cover Amos's past on Earth and the Anderson Station situation. There's also the short story Drive, about Solomon Epstein's creation of his eponymous drive. That said, Cortazar's situation is very different between the show and the novella.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 21:38
|
|
|
What I don't think makes a lot of sense is Naomi suddenly having "split loyalties" drama. In season 1 she expressed a lot of resentment towards the OPA and saw them as separate from or even antagonistic towards the actual needs of belters. Then after spending a lot of time working with Holden and a diverse crew who "do the right thing" as part of a bigger non-nationalistic picture she suddenly gets all patriotic and loyal towards a piece of poo poo like Dawes?? Just out of nowhere she becomes an OPA partisan? It feels like a switch was flipped just to create drama and tension.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 21:39
|
|
|
What has Dawes done besides try to kill Miller that could be considered evil/piece of poo poo? He's an antagonist because he's working against the people who are protagonists, not because he's evil.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 22:15
|
|
|
Duck Rodgers posted:What has Dawes done besides try to kill Miller that could be considered evil/piece of poo poo? He's an antagonist because he's working against the people who are protagonists, not because he's evil. He is a leader of a terrorist organizatino
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 22:19
|
|
Cat Army 
|
Baronjutter posted:What I don't think makes a lot of sense is Naomi suddenly having "split loyalties" drama. In season 1 she expressed a lot of resentment towards the OPA and saw them as separate from or even antagonistic towards the actual needs of belters. Then after spending a lot of time working with Holden and a diverse crew who "do the right thing" as part of a bigger non-nationalistic picture she suddenly gets all patriotic and loyal towards a piece of poo poo like Dawes?? Just out of nowhere she becomes an OPA partisan? It feels like a switch was flipped just to create drama and tension.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 22:22
|
|
|
He's been extremely duplicitous and utterly immoral. You can't trust anything he says and he will betray and backstab anyone and anything, sacrifice anyone, all while feeling perfectly justified because of his "cause". I imagine him with actual power over a more independant belt becoming more of a Slobodan Miloević or Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev than a Nelson Mandela or Václav Havel. The pretense of "just doing what it takes to win freedom for my people" pretense would be dropped and it would be a lovely corrupt kleptocracy masked by appeals to "belter culture" and held in place with brutality, purges, and even genocide.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 22:28
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:What I don't think makes a lot of sense is Naomi suddenly having "split loyalties" drama. In season 1 she expressed a lot of resentment towards the OPA and saw them as separate from or even antagonistic towards the actual needs of belters. Then after spending a lot of time working with Holden and a diverse crew who "do the right thing" as part of a bigger non-nationalistic picture she suddenly gets all patriotic and loyal towards a piece of poo poo like Dawes?? Just out of nowhere she becomes an OPA partisan? It feels like a switch was flipped just to create drama and tension. She's not a partisan though, she's just pointing out to her Earther boyfriend why the people of Ceres like Dawes, and that she's down with Belter self rule. Naomi may be done with participating in radical causes herself (insert her quote from the Martian interrogation on the Donnager here, and also her unwillingness to speak up at the Belter conference) but she's 100% behind the cause of the Belter people (see all her interactions with Miller post-Eros as an example.) I think Naomi's split loyalties right now are between Holden and Humanity, not between Holden and the OPA, and those seem rooted in far more pragmatic scientific and engineering concerns regarding the protomolecule sample than they do notions of political theory. She didn't see destroying the only sample of the PM that they knew existed in the system was for the "greater good" even though Holden certainly did. My take is that Holden's current subplot is very "fear of the unknown". He's trying to destroy the every vestige of the PM and roll things back to the way they were before Pheobe, while Naomi is concerned by what might come after if they aren't the only people left with PM data and a sample and is trying to preserve what she can so that Humanity can adapt to this new era. Old Holden would've never gone to assassinate Cortazar, but the events of Eros and after have certainly changed him, just maybe not for the better. E: Would really like some examples of Dawes being an evil dude beyond his loving with Miller and being associated with a radical revolutionary political faction. I wouldn't take Miller and Holden's assessment of Dawes at face value, both of them are giving you the oppressor's view of Belter politics. Miller as a jaded cop working for an Earthcorp who views everything like it's an old noir movie, and Holden an Earther who though sympathetic to the Belters is also very cynical about politicians and any organized hierarchy like Miller and is no expert when it comes to Belter politics. If Naomi of all people is willing to give Dawes some credit, that should reflect well on him, not poorly. I was listening to some of The Churn podcast, and one thing that stood out to me in their recap of the last episode was how they characterized the scene between Diogo and Dawes as being a purely manipulative moment, Dawes is radicalizing this poor naive boy into his cause, when it's just as easily read as Dawes making an honest connection with Diogo and recruiting him on the basis of their shared backgrounds values and goals. Try to imagine this story and setting from the perspective of the Belters before judging them too harshly. ATP_Power fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Mar 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 22:33
|
|
|
Dawes is pre‐revolutionary Fidel Castro. Maybe he hasnt done that all that much bad stuff, but he clearly has the potential to. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Mar 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 22:34
|
|
|
Or Yasser Arafat
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 22:35
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:He's been extremely duplicitous and utterly immoral. You can't trust anything he says and he will betray and backstab anyone and anything, sacrifice anyone, all while feeling perfectly justified because of his "cause". I imagine him with actual power over a more independant belt becoming more of a Slobodan Miloević or Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev than a Nelson Mandela or Václav Havel. The pretense of "just doing what it takes to win freedom for my people" pretense would be dropped and it would be a lovely corrupt kleptocracy masked by appeals to "belter culture" and held in place with brutality, purges, and even genocide. I can see how that might push her back towards sympathising with the OPA, and temporarily blind her to the reasons she left those sympathies behind in the first place. I'm not saying she's being rational. I'm saying she's angry and afraid and Dawes is nominally on her side.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 22:36
|
|
|
tooterfish posted:I'm not saying she's being rational. I'm saying she's angry and afraid and Dawes is nominally on her side. So are plenty of other jerks. Why choose Dawes?
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 22:39
|
|
|
Platystemon posted:So are plenty of other jerks. Did she choose Dawes, though? Last thing we saw her do was try to drag him back to Tycho.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 22:54
|
|
|
Toast Museum posted:Did she choose Dawes, though? Last thing we saw her do was try to drag him back to Tycho. But she was ~emotionally conflicted~ about it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 22:56
|
|
|
My reading of that scene was that Naomi was explaining to Holden that Fred and him telling a bunch about what Belters should do would be the best way to make sure that the Belters won't do that, so maybe let the process roll a bit before you start telling everyone what to do.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 22:58
|
|
|
I guess the OPA isn't as scrappy Hezbollah in space anymore because after Eros they should be a legitimate governing force in the system.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 23:00
|
|
|
You guys are really desperate to pigeon hole these characters into boxes you already have rather than wait and see. This is not a bookreader statement.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 23:49
|
|
|
Buncha inyalowda posting ITT. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCd8MYnHTLw
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 00:03
|
|
|
ATP_Power posted:Buncha inyalowda posting ITT. That lighting and background gave me very strong reminders of this. https://youtu.be/fa3Y7A4k6Ko Never change, greenscreened space bar scenes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 00:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 23:50 |
|
|
Even more than real life political groups the OPA is basically anyone who wants to call themselves OPA. IIRC in the book doesn't Tycho station outright advertise as the legitimate OPA you can trade and negotiate with? And similarly all those rallies that Johnson holds aren't a citizens' forum - those are the heads of the OPA factions, crews, dockers' unions, corporations and so on.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 00:49
|
|
