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While being critical of Obama, I do wonder what left-winger's baseline for a good president is.
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Mar 13, 2017 15:28
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Someone cam be bad, even if there's nobody better in recent memory to point to
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Mar 13, 2017 15:30
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Henchman of Santa posted:While being critical of Obama, I do wonder what left-winger's baseline for a good president is. I was going to say Norman Thomas but he's probably too Christian for most left-wingers.
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Mar 13, 2017 15:37
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We should have periodic government purges. Like random company drug testing, but more deathy.
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Mar 13, 2017 15:45
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Das Boo posted:We should have periodic government purges. Like random company drug testing, but more deathy. Oh! Like in Logan's Run! Entertainment and population control!
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Mar 13, 2017 15:54
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I don't know if this is really unpopular in the real world, but anyone who describes themselves as a "leftist" is insufferable and their opinions should be generally ignored.
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Mar 13, 2017 16:17
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Wheat Loaf posted:I was going to say Norman Thomas but he's probably too Christian for most left-wingers. Presidents of the United States
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Mar 13, 2017 17:06
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yeah I eat rear end posted:I don't know if this is really unpopular in the real world, but anyone who describes themselves as a "leftist" is insufferable and their opinions should be generally ignored. Honestly I think that goes for anyone that takes politics too seriously.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:22
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Henchman of Santa posted:Presidents of the United States There isn't really anyone because there's never really been a "left-wing" American president. FDR probably comes closest to the ideal (in my opinion as a non-American he is probably the best and most successful president America has had) but there's a lot of people who can't put up with Japanese internment or free trade or the fact that he didn't really do much about the segregationists in the Democratic Party because he needed their co-operation to get the New Deal through. The takeaway to me is that we need to acknowledge that politicians are human beings with human failings and shortcomings whose actions are often shaped by the circumstances they have to deal with, and it's slightly ludicrous to demand MUH PURITY from any one candidate or other public figure. You have to take the good with the bad, weigh up the pros and cons and try and get them to balance. Wheat Loaf has a new favorite as of 17:33 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 17:27
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Solice Kirsk posted:Honestly I think that goes for anyone that takes politics too seriously. Thinking like this is how you ended up with Trump
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Mar 13, 2017 22:26
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yeah I eat rear end posted:I don't know if this is really unpopular in the real world, but anyone who describes themselves as a "leftist" is insufferable and their opinions should be generally ignored. yeah, as long as your criticism is that they should go full communist
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Mar 13, 2017 22:48
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My PHUO for today is that people who act like Obama and Bush are "the same" are idiots. I'm pretty drat left-wing, FDR is far and away my presidential fave, and yeah there's a shitload Obama can be criticized for. Drone reign of terror or no, though, Obama did not launch any full-on wars. Two of my cousins (not to mention countless and counting iraqis and afghans) died because of the Bush admin. Obama is guilty of not stopping some things, Bush is guilty of STARTING a host of awful things.
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Mar 13, 2017 22:48
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Wheat Loaf posted:You have to take the good with the bad, weigh up the pros and cons and try and get them to balance. We don't though.
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Mar 13, 2017 22:52
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zh1 posted:yeah, as long as your criticism is that they should go full communist Yeah, milquetoast western leftists are the sort that look the other way while Rosa Luxembourg is murdered then support Hitler because he's just trying to do his job give him a chance maybe???
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Mar 13, 2017 22:55
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah, milquetoast western leftists are the sort that look the other way while Rosa Luxembourg is murdered then support Hitler because he's just trying to do his job give him a chance maybe??? or who cry about their cousins getting themselves killed in a war of aggression they elected to take part in
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Mar 13, 2017 22:57
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zh1 posted:or who cry about their cousins getting themselves killed in a war of aggression they elected to take part in such a spicy take, you are truly the edge lord
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Mar 13, 2017 23:58
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Hot Smart ARYAN Girl posted:such a spicy take, you are truly the edge lord what personal failing in particular compelled you to make such a worthless post?
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Mar 13, 2017 23:59
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I read a lot of Marxist books in university but I find the communists difficult to take seriously. They always come off like a religion when I encounter them, whether in real life or on the Internet. 
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Mar 14, 2017 00:06
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zh1 posted:what personal failing in particular compelled you to make such a worthless post? 
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Mar 14, 2017 00:11
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Wheat Loaf posted:I read a lot of Marxist books in university but I find the communists difficult to take seriously. They always come off like a religion when I encounter them, whether in real life or on the Internet. Commies and Libertarians always come off as this "Beep, boop? Social rules?" type of developmentally disabled that it just breaks my heart. 
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Mar 14, 2017 00:32
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I remember being on an Internet forum in 2008 when this 15-year old who insisted that he was a communist declared that Ron Paul was "the only candidate worth voting for" in the presidential election, which I'm pretty sure could have won me Internet bingo or something.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:48
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zh1 posted:what personal failing in particular compelled you to make such a worthless post? Either Hot or Girl
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Mar 14, 2017 00:55
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Anti-establishment sentiments that takes the form of any kind of authoritarianism is frighteningly short-sighted.
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Mar 14, 2017 01:14
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Grandmother of Five posted:Anti-establishment sentiments that takes the form of any kind of authoritarianism is frighteningly short-sighted. I agree, but it's unfortunately and arguably inevitable.
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Mar 14, 2017 01:43
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Wheat Loaf posted:I read a lot of Marxist books in university but I find the communists difficult to take seriously. They always come off like a religion when I encounter them, whether in real life or on the Internet. I'm surprised it wasn't the Marxist books themselves you couldn't take seriously tbh. I remember reading them years back at the recommendation of some people I knew that drifted into the deep left at university and seeing the actual rhetoric used in the source materials gave me a hearty lol - I didn't find the original arguments at all compelling and it didn't help that Marx made sure to actually applaud himself in the margins for making such profound connections, surely grander than Newton's synthesis of math and physics. Seemed to me like Marx had such reservations re: religion because he was himself peddling one and it's unsurprising actual communists sometimes come off that way. At least I got some good, informed discussions out of reading those beardy tomes since I didn't get much else. I can see why they'd appeal to people starting to question the systems they were born into tho or otherwise want improvement from thinking about alternatives. Pastry of the Year posted:I agree, but it's unfortunately and arguably inevitable. in a sense yeah, unless you're just for the paring back of certain existing influences instead of like, replacing a bad authority with a good, enlightened one
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Mar 14, 2017 02:10
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I'm never quite sure how Communism is meant to work when it denies something as basic as degrees of ambition. It's no coincidence the ones who wind up with power are the ones who seek it.
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Mar 14, 2017 02:25
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Das Boo posted:I'm never quite sure how Communism is meant to work when it denies something as basic as degrees of ambition. It's no coincidence the ones who wind up with power are the ones who seek it. I think communism could work now, people are already trained to accept retweets, likes, and upvotes as rewards for effort instead of money or getting to live in a house.
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Mar 14, 2017 02:29
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Das Boo posted:I'm never quite sure how Communism is meant to work when it denies something as basic as degrees of ambition. It's no coincidence the ones who wind up with power are the ones who seek it. There's soooo many schools and ideas for building a socialist system it's hard to fully judge or dismiss the core ideas and a lot of people have misconceptions (or are only familiar with one "school" of Marxism). Specially since the only major historical example was just some sort of state-capitalist dictatorship with decent social programs and socialist sounding propaganda. Marx's understanding of capitalism as a whole was extremely insightful for the time, but Das Kapital is mostly analyzing and criticizing capitalism and making suggestions on what not to do, or ways of looking at economics to judge if something is working well or not. But never did he really lay out in detail what an ideal system would look like beyond "workers control the means of production". People like Lenin and the Bolsheviks had to pretty much invent a system 75% on their own and what they came up with was both flawed and was born out of the most non-ideal situations imaginable. Then Stalin took over. Any communist or marxist or leftist who uses Lenin or the soviet union as any sort of foundation for their concept of communism, or is a soviet apologist is an instant red flag for having bad out of date ideas or just being a Tankie. Communists in general are the worst though and are totally stuck in this insufferable academic-marxist way of thinking where if they just write one more paper proving that Trotsky's interpretation of the labour theory of value is the most academically correct there will be world communism tomorrow. No one's thinking of practical solutions, actual policies, or successful movement building. They're far too busy getting into extremely heated pedantic arguments on exactly how bad Lenin was, or the exact interpretation of some minor point Marx wrote. It's more theology than political science and exists in this insular little political bubble. There's some cool communists out there though who's minds are not stuck in the early 20th century. One of the few I've read that actually bothers to outline how a socialist society could actually function today is this guy. http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/new_socialism.pdf Not that any of this matters because around the world it seems that the failure or collapse of the current capitalist status quo is driving people towards the open arms some sort of reactionary nationalism or even full out fascism and the left couldn't organize their way out of a wet paper bag.
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Mar 14, 2017 02:44
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Henchman of Santa posted:Presidents of the United States Some of their songs were OK I guess.
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Mar 14, 2017 04:49
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Aramek posted:Commies and Libertarians always come off as this "Beep, boop? Social rules?" type of developmentally disabled that it just breaks my heart. They strike me as people who don't understand differences in opinion and beleive the world has an objective solution (naturally, the problems include everything they don't personally like)
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Mar 14, 2017 18:35
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The US has a shitload of problems, it's definitely not the best place to be born, but otoh it's pretty progressive in a lot of ways and not some dystopian fascist hellhole. Nor is Sweden or wherever some socialist paradise. Americans who moan about how uniquely awful the place has it need to get some damned perspective. Euros who moan about US imperialism get a special shoutout, Europe had a shot at global superpower and collectively shat over the world so hard that the US looks nice in comparison, and half the Continent is still the sort of people who talk about the perfidious Jew and his lies. I know how easy it is to be socially progressive when your grandparents passed universal healthcare with the unspoken rule that it applied only to proper people of true (x nation) stock, but in practice the whole west is in the same burning house and we all need to address it. Related, people who get smug about other people being ignorant even if they themselves have held more or less the same worldview all their life, can gently caress right off. Johan Q. Sverigesson thinks universal healthcare is great and that John Q. West Virginia is a drooling moron? No poo poo, they're both parroting what their society tells them. Regardless of whether you're objectively right or not, challenging your inherited worldview is hugely more difficult and admirable than agreeing with what 90% of your country does. Being swedish is a privilege a lot of people would die to have a chance at. Having the opportunity to read enough about sociology to form an educated opinion on x thing is something beyond the reach of a lot of perfectly decent people. Swedish guy gets a foreign language drilled into his head from day one and ample opportunity to use it, virginian guy gets maybe two years of lovely spanish classes and no opportunity to interact with non-english-speakers... Yeah, the fact that the swedish guy is multilingual and the virginian guy struggles with "quesadilla" is not a reflection of either's worth or intellect. vintagepurple has a new favorite as of 21:07 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 20:47
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Muslims in Europe also seem to have pretty lovely lives.
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Mar 14, 2017 20:48
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Theodore Roosevelt was a great, great president.
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Mar 14, 2017 21:04
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Arguing about what the "best country" is is pointless. Different people value different things, and no country is perfect at everything. The USA is the best at many things, but not all of them are good things and even the objectively good things they are either the best or among the best at aren't valued equally by everyone. I think a tier system is much more logical than a ranking because there is no objective way to differentiate between similar countries in a ranking way, but you can easily say a country like the USA/Germany/UK/whatever is better to live in than say, Somalia, but you have to acknowledge the faults along with the benefits.
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Mar 14, 2017 21:09
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yeah I eat rear end posted:you have to acknowledge the faults along with the benefits. zh1 posted:We don't though. Apparently.
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Mar 14, 2017 21:13
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yeah I eat rear end posted:Arguing about what the "best country" is is pointless. Different people value different things, and no country is perfect at everything. The USA is the best at many things, but not all of them are good things and even the objectively good things they are either the best or among the best at aren't valued equally by everyone. I think a tier system is much more logical than a ranking because there is no objective way to differentiate between similar countries in a ranking way, but you can easily say a country like the USA/Germany/UK/whatever is better to live in than say, Somalia, but you have to acknowledge the faults along with the benefits. Oh my god dude. Just...what is this?
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Mar 14, 2017 22:31
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My unpopular opinion.
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Mar 14, 2017 22:34
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Relevant to nationalism and communism bad opinions.
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Mar 14, 2017 22:36
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yeah I eat rear end posted:My unpopular opinion. It's more of a nothing/white noise opinion. It's more boring than the people bitching about Skyrim or whatever.
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Mar 14, 2017 22:38
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Mu Zeta posted:It's more of a nothing/white noise opinion. It's more boring than the people bitching about Skyrim or whatever.
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Mar 14, 2017 22:44
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