|
new phone who dis posted:It's funny because arguing about this stuff constantly has made me realize that shaming as a tool is pretty limited. It's obviously not working on fat people, either. That's true I suppose but at the same time why should we be responsible for Jon Jafari's education? You do dumb poo poo in front of a wide audience, people make fun. That's how it goes.
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 20:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 01:03 |
|
|
dont call fats people
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 20:54
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:He's a grown rear end man. He could easily take 30 minutes to research the facts behind his ideas but he won't and I doubt he'll listen to someone else, either. It's not like 10 years ago where you could actually do some decent research on this topic without a ton of spin. Typing any of this poo poo into Google in 2017 is just going to result in reams of slanted political bullshit that only further entrenches people in their already existing inklings. The hack to scholar ratio in regards to this type of stuff has exploded.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 20:54
|
|
|
new phone who dis posted:Which is why it would be useful to have a culture less polarized and willing to discuss things instead of running to tattle at the first opportunity. JonTron is pretty obviously in a flux state and having someone around him who could explain where he's taking the wrong turn ideologically would be helpful. Unfortunately it's just echo chambers and grenades lobbed over the fence by both sides constantly. lol ok gandhi runtydick
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 20:54
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:That's true I suppose but at the same time why should we be responsible for Jon Jafari's education? You do dumb poo poo in front of a wide audience, people make fun. That's how it goes. You either recruit the moderates for your side or let the other guy get them. Preaching to the choir has limited value.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 20:55
|
|
|
Ein cooler Typ posted:if Springtime For Hitler were made today, people would say it is problematic The plot of The Producers would not have worked if Springtime For Hitler wasnt problematic
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 20:55
|
|
|
new phone who dis posted:It's not like 10 years ago where you could actually do some decent research on this topic without a ton of spin. Typing any of this poo poo into Google in 2017 is just going to result in reams of slanted political bullshit that only further entrenches people in their already existing inklings. The hack to scholar ratio in regards to this type of stuff has exploded. Ahh come on man it's not impossible to do research from an objective viewpoint. The signal to noise ratio has been hosed up lately but if you're not trying to avoid an echo chamber and consider all sources critically instead of just agreeing with whatever tickles your fancy then you're not being a serious adult interested in the topic. Statements like "colonialism was good for colonized peoples" reveals such a breathtaking amount of ignorance of just basic history and economics.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 20:56
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:Ahh come on man it's not impossible to do research from an objective viewpoint. The signal to noise ratio has been hosed up lately but if you're not trying to seek out an echo chamber and consider all sources critically instead of just agreeing with whatever tickles your fancy then you're not being a serious adult interested in the topic. I'd say America is doing pretty well 
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 20:57
|
|
|
America loving owns
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 20:57
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:Ahh come on man it's not impossible to do research from an objective viewpoint. The signal to noise ratio has been hosed up lately but if you're not trying to seek out an echo chamber and consider all sources critically instead of just agreeing with whatever tickles your fancy then you're not being a serious adult interested in the topic. Education as a whole is placing less and less value on critical thinking. These kids weren't trained or educated in the same way you or I were. Schools are currently another ideological battleground. The "colonialism was good" argument isn't actually indefensible, it just lacks tact and understanding. Colonialism had extremely high points and extremely low ones. Just 50 years ago most of the colonialists were presented as brave explorers rather than exploiters. The massive reaction in the other direction isn't unwarranted, but it does specifically gloss over a lot of other stuff that doesn't go with the narrative of colonialism=100% evil.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:01
|
|
|
new phone who dis posted:it does specifically gloss over a lot of other stuff that doesn't go with the narrative of colonialism=100% evil. We didn't mercilessly slaughter all the native Hawaiians!
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:03
|
|
|
a hole-y ghost posted:Actually, no, the way to deal with everyone with racist or potentially racist views is to further alienate and condemn them. new phone who dis posted:Education as a whole is placing less and less value on critical thinking. These kids weren't trained or educated in the same way you or I were. Schools are currently another ideological battleground. K but I'm still allowed to call people idiots when they get in front of a huge audience and say idiot things. JonTron is never ever going to read any of my posts, I'm under no illusion that whatever I post will change his mind in any way at all. We're just stating our opinions here not trying to win over JonTron. new phone who dis posted:The "colonialism was good" argument isn't actually indefensible, it just lacks tact and understanding. Colonialism had extremely high points and extremely low ones. Just 50 years ago most of the colonialists were presented as brave explorers rather than exploiters. The massive reaction in the other direction isn't unwarranted, but it does specifically gloss over a lot of other stuff that doesn't go with the narrative of colonialism=100% evil. It wasn't 100% evil but it was probably 80%+ evil and it is pretty drat indefensible once you realize "colonized peoples" aren't white people in America today. What's the high point even? It brought jobs to these "savage" peoples so now they can be brutally exploited for their resources/labor for our enrichment and that's good because capitalism? Was it when China said "enough with this poo poo you're forcing us to buy your opium" and Europe went to war with China to ensure they remained under colonial bootheels? Or was it when the British Raj brought back a nearly forgotten caste system so as to better control the population, ensuring discrimination against "lower castes" for generations to come? Or is it today, where the countries that supply vital rare earth materials that are present in all our electronics are still somehow poor as gently caress and 4 year olds work in the cobalt mines? These things are all readily available to learn about if you give a poo poo at all about the issue. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Mar 16, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:04
|
|
|
a hole-y ghost posted:Yeah, but pedophilia isn't an opinion. neither is racism
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:05
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:What's the high point even? Leopold
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:07
|
|
|
the whole its not my job to educate you shitlord strategy while maybe emotionally satisfying is counterproductive as hell. it pretty much is our job to educate people if they want to be educated and engage in good faith to people of good faith. the problem usually is that people aren't really open to being educated or arguing in good faith.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:08
|
|
|
Your Gay Uncle posted:That is literally the most punchable face I have ever seen.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:08
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:K but I'm still allowed to call people idiots when they get in front of a huge audience and say idiot things. JonTron is never ever going to read any of my posts, I'm under no illusion that whatever I post will change his mind in any way at all. We're just stating our opinions here not trying to win over JonTron. uuhhh yeah but a lot of people have benefited from all those things you mentioned. Idiot
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:10
|
|
|
Blue Train posted:Leopold I laughed and then committed suicide
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:10
|
|
|
A Pale Horse posted:the whole its not my job to educate you shitlord strategy while maybe emotionally satisfying is counterproductive as hell. it pretty much is our job to educate people if they want to be educated and engage in good faith to people of good faith. the problem usually is that people aren't really open to being educated or arguing in good faith. Look if JonTron walked into my office right now and said "let's have a frank discussion about colonialism" I'd do my very best to be accommodating and discuss it and try to learn him some stuff but as I said he isn't going to see this ever and it is kind of moot to talk about whether this would convince him or not because we're just making fun of the YouTube man in here. Assuming, like you said, that he is even open to it in the first place. Many of these people just think their gut feels are correct and that's that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:11
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:K but I'm still allowed to call people idiots when they get in front of a huge audience and say idiot things. JonTron is never ever going to read any of my posts, I'm under no illusion that whatever I post will change his mind in any way at all. We're just stating our opinions here not trying to win over JonTron. Colonialism fueled the enlightenment and pretty much set the stage for what we now experience as the modern scientific world. Everything you say is true, not denying it. But when you let one ideological viewpoint saturate the educational system in regards to subjects like colonialism instead of presenting the entire picture, you inevitably end up with idiots like JonTron discovering facts they weren't told and feeling like they were lied to. This is actually how the entire Howard Zinn field of history came to prominence: People feeling that information was being deliberately withheld from them, and it was. Of course, the impulse from the Zinn types once they become the establishment is to do the same thing the previous generations did and create the same type of blowback. Then you end up where we are now, with a nascent right-wing populism becoming the counter-culture by exposing the lies of the establishment.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:12
|
|
|
Colonialism was extremely lovely for everyone being colonized pretty much but the backlash now with idiot students wanting to tear down statues of college founders because they were shitlords in the 1700s is very dumb and even counterproductive, its like a stalinist attempt to disappear people from history rather than discussing why what those people did was lovely but understanding it in the context of the time and not writing everyone off as purely evil.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:12
|
|
|
new phone who dis posted:It's not like 10 years ago where you could actually do some decent research on this topic without a ton of spin. Typing any of this poo poo into Google in 2017 is just going to result in reams of slanted political bullshit that only further entrenches people in their already existing inklings. The hack to scholar ratio in regards to this type of stuff has exploded. new phone who dis posted:Education as a whole is placing less and less value on critical thinking. These kids weren't trained or educated in the same way you or I were. Schools are currently another ideological battleground. lmao
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:14
|
|
|
new phone who dis posted:Colonialism fueled the enlightenment and pretty much set the stage for what we now experience as the modern scientific world. Everything you say is true, not denying it. But when you let one ideological viewpoint saturate the educational system in regards to subjects like colonialism instead of presenting the entire picture, you inevitably end up with idiots like JonTron discovering facts they weren't told and feeling like they were lied to. This is actually how the entire Howard Zinn field of history came to prominence: People feeling that information was being deliberately withheld from them, and it was. Of course, the impulse from the Zinn types once they become the establishment is to do the same thing the previous generations did and create the same type of blowback. Then you end up where we are now, with a nascent right-wing populism becoming the counter-culture by exposing the lies of the establishment. OK but that's why I said it isn't necessarily 100% evil. However, notice that what you're talking about greatly benefited Europe. JonTron is not only saying the colonizer did well (ofc, that's the point of colonialism) but that the colonized peoples are better off for it as well, which is totally spurious. Plus you can get wealth back to Europe without being psychopath Columbus about it (that dude was lol). France was getting furs back just fine without getting all Trail of Tears about it for example. The British in particular were just a bunch of loving assholes. Look at what they did to the Irish, basically their own drat people. It's possible to say colonialism did some good things while recognizing that in general it hosed over a large part of the globe. To then compare all that to what you think is happening to white people today in America is loving insanity.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:14
|
|
|
A Pale Horse posted:Colonialism was extremely lovely for everyone being colonized pretty much but the backlash now with idiot students wanting to tear down statues of college founders because they were shitlords in the 1700s is very dumb and even counterproductive, its like a stalinist attempt to disappear people from history rather than discussing why what those people did was lovely but understanding it in the context of the time and not writing everyone off as purely evil. Yeah but we probably still chould not name schools or have statues of Nathan Bedford Forrest
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:16
|
|
|
I love my runty dick and I am proud of it despite its extremely tiny size, no worries. I try to engage you honestly sometimes and I'm sorry my patience runs thin, but I hate trying to make jokes and having sensitive people come in and poo poo them up. It definitely has given me perspective on what it must have felt like to be conservative in old GBS? So there's that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:16
|
|
|
Rename Yale to the Ivy League Noonerversity of Pants making GBS threads
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:17
|
|
|
A Pale Horse posted:Colonialism was extremely lovely for everyone being colonized pretty much but the backlash now with idiot students wanting to tear down statues of college founders because they were shitlords in the 1700s is very dumb and even counterproductive, its like a stalinist attempt to disappear people from history rather than discussing why what those people did was lovely but understanding it in the context of the time and not writing everyone off as purely evil. The conservatives 100% have a point about ideological diversity in education, it's just that the diversity needed isn't the stuff most conservatives are bringing to the table. Schools shouldn't be creating activists through propaganda or slant, but that is 100% the goal at a lot of them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:17
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:OK but that's why I said it isn't necessarily 100% evil. It's not totally spurious, though. Every country that was colonized eventually received access to the technology and systems created by the enlightenment. It wasn't fairly distributed and it took a lot longer in some places, but most colonized nations have benefitted greatly both directly and indirectly as a result. The path getting there was nightmarish for many of them, but most are actually better off in a lot of ways for having experienced it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:20
|
|
|
Nooner posted:Yeah but we probably still chould not name schools or have statues of Nathan Bedford Forrest The mongols have giant statues of Genghis Khan everywhere and that dude killed 20% of the world's population and raped thousands of women. History is ugly and I don't think only heroes deserve to be remembered, assholes do too if only as a reminder to future generations how evil people can become given the right time and circumstances. That said, its not something on my list of "poo poo I care about" so whatever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:21
|
|
|
new phone who dis posted:It's not totally spurious, though. Every country that was colonized eventually received access to the technology and systems created by the enlightenment. It wasn't fairly distributed and it took a lot longer in some places, but most colonized nations have benefitted greatly both directly and indirectly as a result. The path getting there was nightmarish for many of them, but most are actually better off in a lot of ways for having experienced it. Prove they wouldn't have been able to get those technologies without colonialism. You can't, bc history is a sample size of 1 and to justify brutalities based on "well it turned out kinda okay later" is illogical reasoning. quote:but most colonized nations have benefitted greatly both directly and indirectly as a result And honestly? No they haven't. A very small % of the people in those nations became wealthy, the rest remain in brutal poverty. Tell the 4 year old mining cobalt for our phones that they benefited greatly, just indirectly. If anything colonialism has ensured those nations remain in a general state of poverty despite otherwise having vast material wealth.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:21
|
|
|
videogame man said a swear page 1 of 400
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:23
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:Prove they wouldn't have been able to get those technologies without colonialism. You can't, bc history is a sample size of 1 look bitch, I've played over 1000 hours of CIV IV and ...
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:23
|
|
|
Like why is Congo so loving poor despite providing all the things we need to build our technologies? Congo, which was once a rich kingdom and a dominant force in the region until the Portuguese showed up
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:25
|
|
|
Like poo poo dude if JonTron gave even half of a gently caress he'd pop on to the wiki on the DRC and immediately seequote:The Democratic Republic of Congo is extremely rich in natural resources, but is politically unstable, has a lack of infrastructure, deep rooted corruption, and centuries of both commercial and colonial extraction and exploitation with little holistic development. and maybe go "oh maybe poo poo sucks for them actually." and then it's like "oh but why are they so politically unstable??" and quote:During the Congo Crisis, Belgian forces helped Mobutu in a coup d'état against the nationalist government of Patrice Lumumba in 1960 to rule the government. Lumumba was the first leader in the country to be democratically elected, but he was subsequently deposed in a coup organised by Colonel Mobutu and executed by a Katangese firing squad led by Julien Gat, a Belgian mercenary.[1] loving lol 'cuz every time they try to self organize the colonizer comes in and coup's the government. Repeat in S. America over and over too, we learned our tricks from the Europeans after all. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Mar 16, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:26
|
|
|
heh, jovial jellyboy also gulag all youtubers
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:26
|
|
|
new phone who dis posted:It's not totally spurious, though. Every country that was colonized eventually received access to the technology and systems created by the enlightenment. It wasn't fairly distributed and it took a lot longer in some places, but most colonized nations have benefitted greatly both directly and indirectly as a result. The path getting there was nightmarish for many of them, but most are actually better off in a lot of ways for having experienced it. Brother, do you have any idea what a nightmare Africa still is, in large part due to colonialism and post colonial chaos? Its nightmarish as gently caress to this day. The aborigines are second class citizens in Australia to this day, Native Americans were essentially genocided and the rest rounded up into giant internment camps called reservations and the indigenous peoples of South and Central America are marginalized in almost every country. Yeah they have cars and electricity so whoop de doo but most places that were colonies have had 300-500 years of continuous misery for the people being colonized, I don't expect them to be grateful.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:27
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:Like why is Congo so loving poor despite providing all the things we need to build our technologies? Congo, which was once a rich kingdom and a dominant force in the region until the Portuguese showed up They just need a hand
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:27
|
|
|
imma start selling You think I'm RETARDED meet THIS GUY WHO THINKS COLONIZED PEOPLE BENEFITED FROM IT shirts
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:28
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:Prove they wouldn't have been able to get those technologies without colonialism. You can't, bc history is a sample size of 1 and to justify brutalities based on "well it turned out kinda okay later" is illogical reasoning. Even in the nations with terrible poverty things like infant mortality is down, life expectancy is up, literacy is higher, and people have access to things they never would have were it not for the global linking of markets and societies done during colonialism. You can point to small groups or individuals who are getting the shaft, but humans as a whole across the globe are benefitting from the systems colonialism put in place. Globalism itself is the evolved version of it, and the third world is undoubtedly currently benefitting in many ways from that system right now. The third world is actually out-populating the first world at a fast rate and it's totally because of the legacy of colonialism.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 01:03 |
|
|
Moridin920 posted:Like poo poo dude if JonTron gave even half of a gently caress he'd pop on to the wiki on the DRC and immediately see When I was a young teen I watched a documentary about Patrice lamumba and it helped shape a hatred of white people that I maintain until this day
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2017 21:29
|
|