Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Badger of Basra posted:

When you say letting lines form or having lines, what does that mean? I can't imagine how a store is supposed to keep from having lines form.

It means having a line form outside of the bakery made up of people waiting to get in. Like this:

The reason why the regime is banning lines is because they are arguing that bakeries are deliberately not baking bread, or not baking enough bread quickly enough, precisely because they want to let the lines form. This is part of the "Bread War" according to Maduro. By letting lines form, the bakeries are making people upset on purpose and keeping them hungry.

What makes this whole thing even more absurd is that part of this "Plan 700" against the bakeries is that the government is capping the maximum amount of flour that any bakery can use at 300 sacks per month. In other words, the regime is ordering bakeries to bake as much bread as they possibly can or face expropriation while simultaneously putting a hard limit on how much bread they can bake.

The reason why none of this makes any sense is because it's a fantasy that is not grounded in any kind of reality. The reason lines form at bakeries is because there isn't enough bread to go around because the Maduro regime (and that of Chavez before him) effectively destroyed every facet of the Venezuelan economy, full stop.

# ? Mar 17, 2017 18:25

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# ? May 21, 2024 13:14

gobbagool: Feb 5, 2016; by R. Guyovich; Doctor Rope

Chuck Boone posted:

It means having a line form outside of the bakery made up of people waiting to get in. Like this:

The reason why the regime is banning lines is because they are arguing that bakeries are deliberately not baking bread, or not baking enough bread quickly enough, precisely because they want to let the lines form. This is part of the "Bread War" according to Maduro. By letting lines form, the bakeries are making people upset on purpose and keeping them hungry.

What makes this whole thing even more absurd is that part of this "Plan 700" against the bakeries is that the government is capping the maximum amount of flour that any bakery can use at 300 sacks per month. In other words, the regime is ordering bakeries to bake as much bread as they possibly can or face expropriation while simultaneously putting a hard limit on how much bread they can bake.

The reason why none of this makes any sense is because it's a fantasy that is not grounded in any kind of reality. The reason lines form at bakeries is because there isn't enough bread to go around because the Maduro regime (and that of Chavez before him) effectively destroyed every facet of the Venezuelan economy, full stop.

Socialism never fails, it can only BE failed

# ? Mar 17, 2017 18:39

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Labradoodle posted:

In short, if the government insists on cracking down as hard as they're saying, they're going to bankrupt most bakeries, which I'm guessing they will then seize and continue running into the ground. I mean, these clowns have a 0% success record as far as expropriated companies go from what I know. There isn't a single instance where they seized a factory or business and actually managed to increase production or even turn a profit, that kind of commitment to ineptitude is almost impressive.

El Nacional is reporting that one of the two bakeries that was "temporarily" expropriated on Wednesday has had its name changed, and that it's not open for business this morning:

quote:

The establishment is now called "Minka". However, it was not selling bread this Friday morning. The front entrance is locked, and products like baguattes were being taking out through a side door.
(...)
A sign on the front door reads the bread that is being removed in bags from the establishment will be re-distributed to those citizens who receive CLAP bags in the following areas: Cuartel Miraflores, Jardin Miraflores, Nisia Jacinta and Victoria Altagracia.

In other words, the bakery is now closed, and the CLAP (which is a network of community workers who sell subsidized goods in bags to people who have signed up for the system) appear to be looting the store in order to sell the bread through CLAP bags because no one has yet figured out a way to somehow bake bread in a permanent location so as to allow individuals wishing to purchase said bread to visit that central location and conduct the transaction there at their leisure.

# ? Mar 17, 2017 18:46

gobbagool: Feb 5, 2016; by R. Guyovich; Doctor Rope

Chuck Boone posted:

El Nacional is reporting that one of the two bakeries that was "temporarily" expropriated on Wednesday has had its name changed, and that it's not open for business this morning:

In other words, the bakery is now closed, and the CLAP (which is a network of community workers who sell subsidized goods in bags to people who have signed up for the system) appear to be looting the store in order to sell the bread through CLAP bags because no one has yet figured out a way to somehow bake bread in a permanent location so as to allow individuals wishing to purchase said bread to visit that central location and conduct the transaction there at their leisure.

Chuck- youre in country, right? Who is having trouble finding enough to eat at this point? Like, on gobbagool's spectrum of economic position, where is the hunger line?

wealthy
connected upper middle class
upper middle class
middle class
lower middle class
working poor
Poor, but have housing, get some kind of min income
Ultra poor/street people homeless

and then how much of the country is below that line, as a percentage of the population. im curious as to the rough estimate and how far up the line has to go before something happens

# ? Mar 17, 2017 19:53

wdarkk: Oct 26, 2007; Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten

Chuck Boone posted:

What makes this whole thing even more absurd is that part of this "Plan 700" against the bakeries is that the government is capping the maximum amount of flour that any bakery can use at 300 sacks per month. In other words, the regime is ordering bakeries to bake as much bread as they possibly can or face expropriation while simultaneously putting a hard limit on how much bread they can bake.

"Plan 700" sounds like a rejected name for Order 66.

On the other hand, I've been describing Venezuela as "socialism as envisioned by Ayn Rand" so maybe that's more appropriate than I thought.

# ? Mar 17, 2017 20:03

Labradoodle: Nov 24, 2011; Crax daubentoni

gobbagool posted:

Chuck- youre in country, right? Who is having trouble finding enough to eat at this point? Like, on gobbagool's spectrum of economic position, where is the hunger line?

wealthy
connected upper middle class
upper middle class
middle class
lower middle class
working poor
Poor, but have housing, get some kind of min income
Ultra poor/street people homeless

and then how much of the country is below that line, as a percentage of the population. im curious as to the rough estimate and how far up the line has to go before something happens

Chuck's in Canada I believe, so I'll take a crack at this. I'd say the cut-off line lies in the middle class now. The difference is, our definition of middle and upper middle class is also pretty skewed.

Middle class these days pretty much refers to any families that aren't going hungry. They're probably comprised of college-educated professionals working regular jobs that can afford to buy food at high prices but that's pretty much it. Maybe a small luxury here and there, as well as the property they bought decades ago or their parents did, but no major new purchases since they're squarely out of the reach of regular folk.

Upper middle class, on the other hand, would be people who not only aren't going hungry, they can afford to splurge on eating normally. Full meals every day, expensive food items, maybe eating out at a nice restaurant now and then. Furthermore, they probably can afford to make expensive purchases from time to time. Although, these days anything from buying a new home appliance and upwards is a luxury that's squarely out of the possibilities of anyone below the middle class. People in this tier probably earn some sort of income in USD, because BsF salaries are unable to maintain this lifestyle.

Recently I've been reading that a little over 80% of the population can be considered poor, though. That means people that can't afford to eat decently, nevermind splurge on luxuries. How that 80% breaks down into the other categories you mentioned, I wouldn't be able to say.

# ? Mar 17, 2017 20:29

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

I'm actually not in Venezuela, but my PhD work is centered on Venezuela and I still have relatives there that I keep in constant touch with. Labradoodle and El Hefe (if he ever comes back :qq:

) are there.

That chart is a bit tricky to work with because one of the questions it raises is whether there is even a thing called "the middle class" left in Venezuela, for one. Even if there is, we'd have to put a huge asterisk beside it and add a bunch of qualifiers to the label so that people reading this in places like the U.S. and Europe don't equate their middle class with the one in Venezuela.

The best I can do to give you a picture of the misery Venezuelans are living in is from a recent study. It was concluded in mid-February by a team of scholars from two Venezuelan universities, and it revealed that 82% of Venezuelan households live in poverty. The same study found that 9.6 million Venezuelans (about 31% of the population) eat two or fewer meals per day due to the scarcity/price of food.

The regime's response to the food crisis is the CLAP system, which it rolled out last February. On paper, CLAP works by having local committees get together and organize themselves to receive plastic bags (and now boxes) of food from regime warehouses. The warehouses are stocked (if at all) with food imported from Panama and Mexico, mostly, but there's also allegations that they are stocked with stolen goods. The CLAP committees tell the warehouses how many bags they need to service their neighbourhood, the warehouse sends the bags, and then the CLAP committees go door-to-door selling the bags to families at subsidized prices.

The CLAP has been an absolute disaster since its inception because it doesn't do anything to address the root of the issue, which is the fact that Venezuela neither produces nor imports enough food to feed itself. It also doesn't do much when it comes to its intended purpose, which is to provide people with food. CLAP bags often come with only a few items, and they don't come often enough. Families sometimes have to wait two or three months between bags, meaning that the relief that they provide is minimal. I have also seen more than a handful of news reports alleging that some CLAP committees are stealing bags to sell in the black market.

Here is a picture that I found on Twitter of someone claiming that they got this in their CLAP bag. We have no way of knowing if she's telling the truth, but what I see in the picture is consistent with what I know of the bags:
https://twitter.com/zaidaledezma1/status/839117047229480962

There's enough in there to keep you alive, but since the bags come one per family and maybe once every 2-3 months if you're lucky, you're still going to have to rely on supermarkets.

The CLAP system's ineffectiveness is reflected in its lack of popularity. A survey from earlier this week found that if given the choice, only 10.4% of Venezuelans would like the CLAP system to continue (and 88.7% would like to be able to buy food in supermarkets). Perhaps more tellingly, only 30.4% of people who identify as PSUV supporters like the CLAP system.

If you're ever down for getting depressed, go on Twitter and search "comiendo basura" ("eating garbage"). Most of the videos/pictures you'll see come up are from Venezuela.

EDIT: Thank you, Labradoodle!

Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Mar 17, 2017

# ? Mar 17, 2017 20:33

gobbagool: Feb 5, 2016; by R. Guyovich; Doctor Rope

Chuck Boone posted:

I'm actually not in Venezuela, but my PhD work is centered on Venezuela and I still have relatives there that I keep in constant touch with. Labradoodle and El Hefe (if he ever comes back ) are there.

That chart is a bit tricky to work with because one of the questions it raises is whether there is even a thing called "the middle class" left in Venezuela, for one. Even if there is, we'd have to put a huge asterisk beside it and add a bunch of qualifiers to the label so that people reading this in places like the U.S. and Europe don't equate their middle class with the one in Venezuela.

The best I can do to give you a picture of the misery Venezuelans are living in is from a recent study. It was concluded in mid-February by a team of scholars from two Venezuelan universities, and it revealed that 82% of Venezuelan households live in poverty. The same study found that 9.6 million Venezuelans (about 31% of the population) eat two or fewer meals per day due to the scarcity/price of food.

The regime's response to the food crisis is the CLAP system, which it rolled out last February. On paper, CLAP works by having local committees get together and organize themselves to receive plastic bags (and now boxes) of food from regime warehouses. The warehouses are stocked (if at all) with food imported from Panama and Mexico, mostly, but there's also allegations that they are stocked with stolen goods. The CLAP committees tell the warehouses how many bags they need to service their neighbourhood, the warehouse sends the bags, and then the CLAP committees go door-to-door selling the bags to families at subsidized prices.

The CLAP has been an absolute disaster since its inception because it doesn't do anything to address the root of the issue, which is the fact that Venezuela neither produces nor imports enough food to feed itself. It also doesn't do much when it comes to its intended purpose, which is to provide people with food. CLAP bags often come with only a few items, and they don't come often enough. Families sometimes have to wait two or three months between bags, meaning that the relief that they provide is minimal. I have also seen more than a handful of news reports alleging that some CLAP committees are stealing bags to sell in the black market.

Here is a picture that I found on Twitter of someone claiming that they got this in their CLAP bag. We have no way of knowing if she's telling the truth, but what I see in the picture is consistent with what I know of the bags:
https://twitter.com/zaidaledezma1/status/839117047229480962

There's enough in there to keep you alive, but since the bags come one per family and maybe once every 2-3 months if you're lucky, you're still going to have to rely on supermarkets.

The CLAP system's ineffectiveness is reflected in its lack of popularity. A survey from earlier this week found that if given the choice, only 10.4% of Venezuelans would like the CLAP system to continue (and 88.7% would like to be able to buy food in supermarkets). Perhaps more tellingly, only 30.4% of people who identify as PSUV supporters like the CLAP system.

If you're ever down for getting depressed, go on Twitter and search "comiendo basura" ("eating garbage"). Most of the videos/pictures you'll see come up are from Venezuela.

EDIT: Thank you, Labradoodle!

wow, thanks to both of you for providing context.

# ? Mar 17, 2017 20:53

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Chuck Boone posted:

Yesterday was the four year anniversary of Chavez's death, and the regime marked it with an ALBA meeting in the Miraflores Palace in Caracas.

how is ALBA still kicking. Venezuela doesn't even have 10 billion dollars left, i assume its an excuse for the party to suckle off other countries for money?

# ? Mar 17, 2017 22:59

Baloogan: Dec 5, 2004; Fun Shoe

Chuck Boone posted:

If you're ever down for getting depressed, go on Twitter and search "comiendo basura" ("eating garbage"). Most of the videos/pictures you'll see come up are from Venezuela.

drat. Why isn't there international food aid?

# ? Mar 17, 2017 23:19

BeigeJacket: Jul 21, 2005

I'm guessing because it'd probably be stolen and sold on the black market by the same group of arseholes currently running the country into the ground.

# ? Mar 17, 2017 23:20

Dr Kool-AIDS: Mar 26, 2004

Baloogan posted:

drat. Why isn't there international food aid?

The government has openly rejected it.

# ? Mar 17, 2017 23:40

DeusExMachinima: Sep 2, 2012; This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!

Put this loser on ignore immediately!

Baloogan posted:

drat. Why isn't there international food aid?

Reminding the world that socialism only works on paper is a thankless job but somebody's gotta do it.

# ? Mar 18, 2017 00:03

DoctorStrangelove: Jun 7, 2012; IT WOULD NOT BE DIFFICULT MEIN FUHRER!

Here's the secret to socialism: it doesn't even work on paper.

# ? Mar 18, 2017 00:27

Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

What was Maduro trying to say when he was addressing his statements at Trump?

DoctorStrangelove posted:

Here's the secret to socialism: it doesn't even work on paper.

Actual Democratic Socialism does :smaug:

# ? Mar 18, 2017 00:30

MullardEL34: Sep 30, 2008; Basking in the cathode glow

Sinteres posted:

The government has openly rejected it.

Even sicker is the PSUV's flat out of refusal of Medical Aid and supplies, while children are dying of sepsis from skinned knees due to the profound lack of basic antibiotics and sterile dressings. Socialismo o Muerte indeed.

MullardEL34 fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Mar 18, 2017

# ? Mar 18, 2017 00:34

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

As others have pointed out, the regime refuses to accept humanitarian aid because as far as its concerned, there is no humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. If you have eight minutes, watch this video from Human Rights Watch on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N6_E8gEejI. The video starts with Foreign Affairs Minister Delcy Rodriguez saying, "There's no humanitarian crisis in the country. I say that with full responsibility, there is not."

In a case emblematic of this stance, Brazilian footballer Dani Alves donated 300 doses of Hepatitis C medicine to a Venezuelan NGO back in August of last year, but the regime refused to accept them. Accepting humanitarian aid would mean admitting that there is a humanitarian crisis in the country, and there can't be a humanitarian crisis in the country because Supreme and Eternal Commander Hugo Chavez gave us the Socialism of the 21st century, which is the best political system the country has ever had and Venezuela has never seen better days.

Lightning Lord posted:

What was Maduro trying to say when he was addressing his statements at Trump?

Which statements? It's been hard to gauge Maduro's stance towards Trump because he hasn't talked about him too much, I think, and what little he has said has been contradictory. The default position against the U.S. is that it's an evil empire bent on destroying the revolution.

Having said that, Maduro did refer to "comrade Trump" in a speech last Sunday and said that he was selling Venezuela subsidized food, and that "there will be surprises" in the coming days on the relationship between Venezuela and the U.S. I wouldn't put stock on any of that, though. If there is anyone more prone to talk nonsense and make stuff up in front of cameras than Trump, it's Maduro.

# ? Mar 18, 2017 01:02

Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

Chuck Boone posted:

Which statements? It's been hard to gauge Maduro's stance towards Trump because he hasn't talked about him too much, I think, and what little he has said has been contradictory. The default position against the U.S. is that it's an evil empire bent on destroying the revolution.

�Mr. Trump, please open the leez!� he said. �Mr. Trump, open your hair. Don�t let them got to you.�

# ? Mar 18, 2017 01:27

MullardEL34: Sep 30, 2008; Basking in the cathode glow

Lightning Lord posted:

“Mr. Trump, please open the leez!” he said. “Mr. Trump, open your hair. Don’t let them got to you.”

I thought you were joking, then I googled it. I wish I hadn't googled it.
What the hell is he even saying?

# ? Mar 18, 2017 04:00

learnincurve: May 15, 2014; Smoosh

Asking again on behalf of the F1 thread. Anyone heard from el hefe? It's the start of the new season and I would expect him to be posting by now. If you are lurking hefe, come back and say you are ok, the thread keeps acting out of character and showing genuine concern. Bernie is out Brawn is in charge now. No joke.

# ? Mar 18, 2017 08:15

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Lightning Lord posted:

�Mr. Trump, please open the leez!� he said. �Mr. Trump, open your hair. Don�t let them got to you.�

I also hadn't seen this before. Oh... my. Wow.

I think the first thing to keep in mind is that Maduro is not an intelligent person. He obviously doesn't speak a word of English, but even his Spanish is shaky too. He doesn't pronounce things properly a lot of the times (for example, the word for "truth" is verdad, but for some reason he tends to pronounce it verdadK).There are also lots of examples of him just butchering words or making them up. Plus, he seems to have difficulty understanding basic principles anyone in a position of authority should be aware of, like inflation. If you listen to him speak for any period of time you'll quickly realize that putting sentences together is a challenge for him.

Anyway, in that clip it looks like Foreign Affairs Minister Delcy Rodriguez was telling Maduro what to say, and Maduro was repeating whatever he heard through the screaming crowd phonetically.

"Don't let them get to you" reminds me of comments that Maduro has made before on Trump. Back in February, Maduro made a speech in which he asked Trump to "open your eyes" because "they" (???) were trying to mislead him and get him to be hostile towards Venezuela. Maduro said:

quote:

President Donald Trump, open your eyes. Don't let yourself be led towards the failed regime-change policies against Venezuela and Latin America that the old George W. Bush and Barack Obama administrations used.

At another point Maduro said that he was somewhat hopeful that Trump would be good for Venezuelan because he couldn't be worse than Obama. Trump has been fairly anti-Maduro, but who knows what that orange baby will end up saying/doing. I wouldn't read too much into Maduro's comments on this. I think he just got up on that stage and got the idea to say those words and that's how they came out.

EDIT: On second though, if Maduro and the US are working on some kind of secret deal as Maduro hinted earlier, it might be that Maduro is trying to set the stage for better relations with the U.S. He might be trying to construct a narrative that would allow him to save face if Trump does soften up on Venezuela, because for essentially all of Maduro's presidency the U.S. has been the big bad wolf. But I may be giving Maduro too much credit here.

Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Mar 18, 2017

# ? Mar 18, 2017 15:07

beer_war: Mar 10, 2005

I like the lady smiling and nodding enthusiastically at "Open your hair".

# ? Mar 18, 2017 15:44

fnox: May 19, 2013

Maduro was legitimately god awful at just talking in public during his presidential campaign. He was even worse than he is now.

# ? Mar 18, 2017 21:14

TROIKA CURES GREEK: Jun 30, 2015; by R. Guyovich

Lightning Lord posted:

What was Maduro trying to say when he was addressing his statements at Trump?

Actual Democratic Socialism does

You might be referring to social democracy aka the nordic model? Which is really just a market capitalist economy with more safety nets and regulations. I don't believe there are any working examples of actual socialism beyond small communities like kibbutz -- it would seem it's very hard to scale. At least it wasn't a complete disaster in Cuba I suppose. You could argue that western powers cause them to fail through their policies but governments need to work in the realities of the real world, not theory papers.

e: maybe parts of kurdistan as well in the YPG? It would seem that it requires small, tightly nit communities that are highly ethnically and racially homogeneous.

TROIKA CURES GREEK fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Mar 19, 2017

# ? Mar 19, 2017 15:02

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:

e: maybe parts of kurdistan as well in the YPG? It would seem that it requires small, tightly nit communities that are highly ethnically and racially homogeneous.

I don't know a lot about the Kurdish factions political directions, but I don't think the YPG, and definitely not the PDK Iraqi Kurds, are at all socialist. The PKK is and it'd be a huge nightmare dumpster fire, even if Erdogan wasn't a warmonger. (Edit: Or was; their primary political message at the moment is trying to set up a bunch of federalist countries in the area, economic models be damned)

# ? Mar 20, 2017 11:53

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

One of the bakeries that was expropriated last week (Mansion's Bakery in La Candelaria, which was renamed "Minka" immediately after it was taken over) is now closed. It's not clear when or if the establishment will open again.

The bakery got a face-lift before shutting down:

https://twitter.com/Imag3n/status/844154071997124608?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Yesterday, the bakery's owner - a man named Emilio Dos Santos - told a major newspaper that he was literally kicked out (as in, the regime agents literally kicked, punched and shoved him out of his bakery) when they took it over last week. The bakery's 18 employees were left in limbo, as they were not allowed to work in the establishment after it was expropriated and it's not entirely clear if the bakery will ever be returned to Dos Santos.

Yesterday, one of the regime agents (likely when asked if anyone now in charge of the bakery knew how to run a business or how to bake in general) said:

quote:

We're not perfect. We'll figure it out as we go along.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 19:27

Haramstufe Rot: Jun 24, 2016

ah yes, the socialism mantra

# ? Mar 21, 2017 21:40

Mozi: Apr 4, 2004; Forms change so fast
Time is moving past
Memory is smoke
Gonna get wider when I die; Nap Ghost

"Sir, the bread isn't rising!"

"Just add more yeast and put them back in the oven."

# ? Mar 21, 2017 22:18

fnox: May 19, 2013

There was a spontaneous, organized protest right outside Miraflores, organized by neighbors at the Av. Baralt. This was impromptu, without any sort of intervention from the MUD, they were just upset that the government shut down the bakery that served their neighborhood. That's a really good sign of things to come.

fnox fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Mar 22, 2017

# ? Mar 22, 2017 11:02

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

The protest last night at the bakery was a pretty good size, and like fnox said, the fact that it was spontaneous is good. This is, by the way, the same bakery that we've been talking about this whole page (Mansion's Bakery, which was renamed "Minka" and then closed).

The bakery is located about a block away from the Palacio de Miraflores, which is the seat of government (bakery marked with a Blue X):

The fact that the protest took place so close to Miraflores is huge, because there is a long-standing ban on any kind of demonstration that is not sanctioned by the PSUV in that whole half of the city. Every MUD attempt to lead a demonstration anywhere near Miraflores has failed.

Here are some videos from the protest:

In the video below, the crowd is chanting "Y va a caer! Y va a caer! Este gobierno va a caer!" [It will fall! It will fall! This government will fall!"]:
https://twitter.com/pedrosanchez57/status/844366291720949768

In the video below, you can hear the excitement in the woman's voice as she says, "We're half a block away from Miraflores! Half a block!":
https://twitter.com/MechanicBot1/status/844368353821118466

# ? Mar 22, 2017 22:26

Plastic_Gargoyle: Aug 3, 2007

Forgive me for asking the dumb question, but how is it that Venezuela can't produce enough food for itself?

# ? Mar 23, 2017 02:11

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Plastic_Gargoyle posted:

Forgive me for asking the dumb question, but how is it that Venezuela can't produce enough food for itself?

They've relied on oil cash for like 50 years to afford to import food, and the reliance only got worse in recent years.

It would take huge investment to build up local agriculture to a sufficient level which no government in the last few decades has been interested in, with Chavez and Maduro being no exception.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 02:58

I dont know: Aug 9, 2003; That Guy here...

In addition to the fact that Venezuela has long left their agricultural sector underdeveloped, the PSUV has put price controls on staple goods which covers most of what people would grow. These price controls are far below not only the market rate, but cost of production as well. The government doesn't subsidize the difference, and instead just lets producers eat the losses. Thus whatever domestic production used to exist has been systematically destroyed over the last decade or so.

It's really hard to overstate just how badly the government has hosed Venezuela. You would be hard pressed to come up woth more destructive policy if you tried.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 04:28

Warbadger: Jun 17, 2006

Plastic_Gargoyle posted:

Forgive me for asking the dumb question, but how is it that Venezuela can't produce enough food for itself?

Part of the problem is that the government sets prices for many staple food items. These prices are only periodically updated (see: vulnerable to inflation) and tend to be set low enough that many farmers and such simply could not make ends meet by growing/making the food.

So the farms go out of business and agricultural work becomes a road to guaranteed poverty.

Warbadger fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Mar 23, 2017

# ? Mar 23, 2017 06:42

bedpan: Apr 23, 2008

Plastic_Gargoyle posted:

Forgive me for asking the dumb question, but how is it that Venezuela can't produce enough food for itself?

Many countries today can't feed their population from purely domestically produced food. Being a food importer really only becomes a problem when you can't pay in a currency anyone wants and/or don't have any raw materials to barter. Venezuela has depended not just on oil, but that oil is priced and traded in US dollars, which is both the world reserve currency and the backbone of international trade; when Venezuela sold oil, what they received in payment could instantly be converted into any commodity they could ever want.

Although this doesn't answer your question, "how is it that Venezuela can't produce enough food for itself," and sadly, I cannot give you a specific answer. What I can say is that modern, industrial food production is an intricate process reliant on a constellation of companies, each specializing in one of the many requirements for industrial scale production (seeds, fertilizers, pesticides, irrigation and water control equipment, planting and harvesting machinery, fencing, grain and produce storage facilities, slaughter and meat packing houses, transportation for all of this and every food commodity at every stage of the process, etc.) all of which must either be produced locally or purchased abroad and often times requiring aid and subsidy from an equally expansive list of government programs to provide discount crop insurance, price supports, and infrastructure programs.

It is far from an easy thing to feed a nation and the process that turned peasants into workers is not reversible.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 07:22

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

I'll add to these really great answers by stressing two points.

The first point is that starting in the early 2000s, Chavez began to expropriate private businesses and land that he felt were being mismanaged in some way. The expropriations included farms, other agricultural entities, and generally businesses that either produced and/or imported food. From 2002 to 2012, Chavez expropriated approximately 1,168 businesses. Many of them were essentially gutted under government control or otherwise driven into bankruptcy. For example, Chavez ordered 47 farms expropriated in Maracaibo state in December of 2011 totaling 20,000 hectares. By the following February, 11 of the farms had been completely abandoned and others were still "operational" but completely overrun by weeds and pests due to lack of maintenance. You can find lots and lots of examples just like this one showing that the party was wholly incapable of operating agricultural assets, which is a big part of the reason why Venezuela is struggling to feed itself today.

The second point is that, as bedpand pointed out, Venezuela like many other countries relies mostly on imports to feed itself. That was true before Chavez came to power and it is true today. The problem with getting imports into the country is the fact that the regime has had a currency exchange system in place since 2002 (or 2003?) that is extremely vulnerable to corruption. In fact, I believe that the system exists primarily to facilitate corruption. The exchange system is multi-tiered, and allows companies to purchase foreign currency (mostly US dollars and Euros) for imports. The best rate is reserved for companies that import or produce food: Bs. 10 per US dollar. The black market exchange rate today is Bs. 2,900 per US dollar. What this means is that if I can somehow convince the government that I am a food importer so that I can get access to US dollars at Bs. 10, I can immediately turn around and sell the dollars that I bought for cheap at Bs. 2,900 and make an instant profit of 290%. In 2014, a parliamentary commission headed by a PSUV (the ruling party) deputy found that $20 billion dollars disappeared into shell companies through this exchange system between 2011 and 2013. That's $20 billion that could have gone to importing food but instead went into someone's pockets over two years alone. The commission resulted in 0 changes to the exchange system. It operates today in virtually the same way as it did then, hence my (and many peoples') feeling that the system is actually working as intended.

TL;DR: Why can't Venezuela produce enough food to feed itself? The ruling party destroyed the country's ability to produce and import food over a period of about 15 years.

Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Mar 23, 2017

# ? Mar 23, 2017 15:15

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

It'd be interesting to see, but I would guess that if you normalized countries food production vs their quantity of arable land vs their population, you'd find that Venezuela is an order of magnitude worse than any other country. Hell, even Iraq is more food sufficient than Venezuela despite having the same population of Venezuela, being in a civil war, and having probably <10% of Venezuela's arable land. CIA factbook lists arable land, but you probably can't find food import or production statistics very easily for most countries.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 17:52

Feinne: Oct 9, 2007; When you fall, get right back up again.

Saladman posted:

It'd be interesting to see, but I would guess that if you normalized countries food production vs their quantity of arable land vs their population, you'd find that Venezuela is an order of magnitude worse than any other country. Hell, even Iraq is more food sufficient than Venezuela despite having the same population of Venezuela, being in a civil war, and having probably <10% of Venezuela's arable land. CIA factbook lists arable land, but you probably can't find food import or production statistics very easily for most countries.

Certainly not for Venezuela where I'd imagine the government works really hard to prevent there being accurate statistics on the subject.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 19:23

caberham: Mar 18, 2009; by Smythe; Grimey Drawer

Jesus loving Christ, fuel shortages in a fuel producing country? So Is Venezuela actually bottoming out in misery and poverty? Or the appropriation doesn't really stop? Cultural Revolution China just kinda dragged people's lives along and I guess people in North Korea are still somehow surviving. The internet age of information is just rubbing salt into the wound

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-23/venezuelan-drivers-line-up-for-gasoline-as-fuel-shortage-worsens posted:

Venezuela�s state oil company was rushing to replenish gasoline supplies in various neighborhoods of Caracas on Thursday morning as drivers lined up at filling stations amid a worsening shortage of fuel.

While Petroleos de Venezuela SA says the situation is normalizing and blamed the lines on transport delays, the opposition says the company has had to reduce costly fuel imports as it tries to preserve cash to pay its foreign debt. Tanker trucks were seen in several neighborhoods of the capital city resupplying filling stations after local newspaper El Nacional reported widespread shortages across the country.

�Yesterday, I went to three filling stations and I couldn�t fill my tank,� Freddy Bautista, a 26-year-old student, said in an interview while waiting outside of a gas station in the Las Mercedes area of eastern Caracas. �I�ve been waiting 30 minutes here, and it seems like I�ll be able to fill up today.�

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As the company�s crumbling refineries fail to meet domestic demand, imports have become a financial burden because the country buys fuel abroad at market prices only to sell it for pennies per gallon at home. PDVSA, as the state-run producer is known, has been reducing the money-losing imports as it prepares for $2 billion in bond payments due next month, said Jose Brito, an opposition lawmaker on the National Assembly�s oil commission.

�They�re not importing enough because they are saving up to pay the debt,� he said in a telephone interview. �It�s unbelievable that this is happening in an oil producing country.�

Call for Calm

Ysmel Serrano, commercial and supply vice president at PDVSA, said on Twitter late Wednesday that the company has sufficient supply from its refineries and is working to increase shipments to stabilize distribution after transportation delays led to lines at gasoline stations in four states.

�We call for calm and to resist false rumors from sectors trying to create chaos in the country!� Serrano said.

The comments came just hours after the company said it had controlled a �minor� fire at the Amuay refinery in Falcon state, the largest refining complex in the country where a 2012 explosion killed dozens of people.

PDVSA�s press department on Thursday declined to make additional comments when contacted by Bloomberg News, but said it may release more information later in the day.

Shortages of Everything

The hunt for gasoline is just the latest headache for consumers after years of severe economic contraction and triple-digit inflation have produced shortages of everything from bread to antibiotics. Long accustomed to the world�s cheapest gasoline in the country with the world�s largest oil reserves, now Venezuelans are worried they�ll lack fuel, too.

Venezuela has been forced to increase imports of finished gasoline and components over the past years as its refinery utilization rates declined because of deteriorating infrastructure and under-investment. The country imported about 75,000 barrels a day of refined products from the U.S. in 2016, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

In Caracas� eastern Sucre municipality, around 20 cars were lined up outside of a PDVSA gas station trying to fill up. National police in the Las Mercedes part of the city, meanwhile, were trying to prevent lines from forming outside of filling stations there.

Outside of Caracas, El Carabobeno, a newspaper based in the central city of Valencia, reported widespread lines there.

caberham fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Mar 23, 2017

# ? Mar 23, 2017 20:56

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# ? May 21, 2024 13:14

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

caberham posted:

Jesus loving Christ, fuel shortages in a fuel producing country?

Venezuela doesn't have much local refinery capacity. Their current facilities, if they were in full working order, could process about 1 million barrels of local crude oil per day (and they're NOT in full working order). So, a ton of Venezuela's domestic oil product use is actually refined up in the US, usually at Citgo's own refineries since it's a subsidiary of PdVSA, and then shipped back to Venezuela. Additionally, a lot of domestic refined oil products are immediately exported to try to get hard currency, and thus not available for local use.

All of this makes Venezuela rather vulnerable to fuel shortages when money runs low, and it doesn't help at all that policy for governments for the past ~50 years has been to heavily subsidize gasoline prices, which means even more spending than is already involved, and a lot of people driving cars that are low fuel efficiency but cheap sot he demand for fuel is higher than you might expect.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 21:30

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

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