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Sojenus posted:rip fun version of wu jian, 2017-2017, sacrificed on the altar of tab All hail otab, the one true god of crawl.
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Mar 19, 2017 19:00
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dpeg posted:It's good to see this thread back at its best! See above where a gave a better alternative to what was implemented. The God played in melee is about seeking out areas that are semi-open so you can use your best abilities instead of seeking out corridors that isolate enemies. Yes, luring a bit is still ideal as it has always been because that's one of the key tactics in the game. But luring to an open area leaves you more exposed, and as you attract additional enemies you have to make difficult placement decisions and probably dance around them in a satisfying way. Whirlwind came with an inherent limitation because you need open space around the enemy to use it. Unlimited wall jumping makes you feel mobile and powerful during play but you have to skillfully position under tension to get the most out of it. Yes, it was such a useful tool it may have made the God attractive to non-melee combatants. The answer to that is instead of taking it away from melee just put restrictions on the God. My suggestion was to put an exhaustion timer on jumping depending on armor encumbrance and make destructive magic + maybe ranged cost piety. I also very much disagree that the council was ever overpowered compared to any of the gods that let you summon a number of late-game allies whenever there is a crisis. This God made melee in the game fun and gave some interesting tools that really changed play, but the ideal melee fighter was still a Troglodyte who lures everything to a narrow corridor and spams trolls at the big threats. I think it's very indicative of the state of Crawl design that the best piece of design for a very long time came from an outsider and then was immediately cut down in a way that reveals a lack of understanding about what made it fun and the justification for that particular Nerf is "it was the easiest nerf to implement".
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Mar 19, 2017 19:14
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What I don't like about the change is not that the god is weaker and now I'm terribly upset my character numbers aren't as big and gently caress the developers, what made it interesting to me is that I was making a trade off of cognitive load and play speed for bonuses. The game is essentially an elaborate slot machine in which I'm hoping for jackpots, and slamming into it as quickly as possible is the optimum way to see how many interesting items/layouts/mutations/etc. I come across. What Wu Jian offered was tangible reasons to slow down and put more thought into how I'm playing the game, and without those bonuses I've got no real incentive to expend the mental effort (like I am on this extremely important forum post).
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Mar 19, 2017 19:24
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This troper only wall jumps onto bullies not away from them
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Mar 19, 2017 19:26
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Every time I wall jumped I'd make wooshing sounds and imagine it was really me doing them and that I was strong enough to flip with my oxygen tank.
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Mar 19, 2017 19:28
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Wu Jian was very OP and if you don't think "apply slow to anything for free while attacking them in exchange for more button presses" (and also wall jump literally being a free escape from almost anything)was a bad design idk what to tell you Changing whirlwind was important because "hurt something and slow it" is something you almost always want to do, in virtually every combat situation, which means not only is it OP but it's not actually any more involved in terms of decision making because you always want to do it. Replacing tab with something which is a straight upgrade in terms of power but makes you press more buttons(and only is not a good idea to do in corridors, so the only situation you wouldn't use it when you would tab is one where it makes you lure more because you want to kite individual tough threats out of corridors into space where you can move back and forth in front of them) is... not great. Meanwhile, "reposition while still getting a chance to attack" is situational and so when you think you might want to use it you have to actually think about the situation instead of just doing it 99% of the time. Kind of like how whirlwind-esque attacks in other RLs tend to work!
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Mar 19, 2017 19:30
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IronicDongz posted:Wu Jian was very OP and if you don't think "apply slow to anything for free while attacking them in exchange for more button presses" (and also wall jump literally being a free escape from almost anything)was a bad design idk what to tell you Do you like this version of WJC more then? (not trolling, legit curious since I haven't tried it yet)
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Mar 19, 2017 19:37
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Please add a Yak King unique who leads a pack of yaks I can whirlwind into and die.
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Mar 19, 2017 19:39
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My idealized version of Crawl is line sprint, but it's one solid line rather than turning back and forth.
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Mar 19, 2017 19:39
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What about merging some aspects of WJC and Uskyaw, since U seems to be aiming at similar gameplay and has sensible limitations for powers that ensure players are staying in the action? Flavor-wise the council would be a great candidate for U's dynamic piety system as well
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Mar 19, 2017 19:40
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Yak King and Yak Queen pair
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Mar 19, 2017 19:42
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apple posted:Do you like this version of WJC more then? (not trolling, legit curious since I haven't tried it yet) Roctavian posted:What about merging some aspects of WJC and Uskyaw, since U seems to be aiming at similar gameplay and has sensible limitations for powers that ensure players are staying in the action? Flavor-wise the council would be a great candidate for U's dynamic piety system as well
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Mar 19, 2017 19:44
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like, piety increases/decreases at the same sort of rate that U currently offers; whirlwind always possible (doing damage but not slow) wall jump at * and lunge at **, figure out how to put together serpent's lash and line pass (it's still 2 moves at 0 aut but some positioning situations could give you a line pass effect) whirlwind gains slow at **** or something, wall jump gains stomp effect at a similar level, heaven cloud ability passively starts up at high levels of piety and you can blow all your piety/clouds/slaying bonus with a grand finale kind of effect.
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Mar 19, 2017 19:51
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It doesn't matter if it's OP because it's optional, like the reverse mummy.
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Mar 19, 2017 19:56
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apple posted:Judging from SteelNeuron's response I think he doesn't have the time/energy to pull back in the direction he envisioned, and I think these kind of commits give off the message that the people doing the merges to trunk have their minds made up already This is pretty much where I'm at. It takes an enormous amount of energy to stay on top of a feature like this without being a dev, and with these changes the god has moved too far away from my vision for me to care or to put any extra energy on it. I wish the best to the god in the future, and hopefully it will stick around, but I would be lying if I didn't say that the current version is broken. I have left a final writeup at the tavern, but I don't hold much hope for my voice to be heard at this point, it appears the next changes being considered are removing the damage bonus from lunge and possibly taking away the opacity of Heaven on Earth clouds, which I also believe will make the god worse, and eventually will lead to it never making it out of trunk. Note that I did also identify whirlwind spam as being a problem, but I proposed a completely different solution (reducing whirlwind damage so it functioned primarily as a debuff and competed with tab in equal terms). I have made very detailed arguments why I feel this would be better so I won't repeat them here. SteelNeuron fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 19:58
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I like that idea, particularly since fighting multiple enemies with WJC actually felt like dancing around them. However, the argument of which theme to go with, martial arts vs dance party, is just too much. It would tear the game apart.
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Mar 19, 2017 19:58
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Goodpancakes posted:It doesn't matter if it's OP because it's optional, like the reverse mummy. it does matter because it makes the god feel worse to play. you spend all game walking back and forth in front of enemies because of the disproportionate power of whirlwind when it has slow, and it makes something that would create room for interesting positioning and makes it into a better but slower-irl tab.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:00
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Why not something like a proportional slaying bonus whenever you would hit two or more targets during any martial attack(maybe +3-5 for two enemies, increase by +2-3 for each additional enemy; excluding cleave from axes). For examples:code:code:code:Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 20:02
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A power bonus to martial attacks against multiple enemies could be neat. In fact, I actually think putting slow back on whirlwind but requiring multiple enemies to apply them could work(aka, if you whirlwind against one thing you get 0% chance of slowing it per hit, against 2 enemies 25% chance of slowing them per hit, etc), the advantage of slow on demand is a lot less significant when you are putting yourself in harm's way via being in the range of multiple enemies to get said slow. Same thing can apply to other martial attacks, though the particular debuffs would probably need to be changed.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:07
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I was thinking about that as an option, but would it not be countered with the idea that "optimal play" would be to bring along a weak enemy to ensure you get whirlwinds off on stronger ones?
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Mar 19, 2017 20:12
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maybe. I guess that depends on the terrain, kiting weak enemies around for a long while might not really be reasonable when moving adjacent to them will hit them automatically and kill them
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Mar 19, 2017 20:17
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Sojenus posted:I was thinking about that as an option, but would it not be countered with the idea that "optimal play" would be to bring along a weak enemy to ensure you get whirlwinds off on stronger ones? Usually the 'kiting a weaker enemy for a specific ability' tedious play is only useful in circumstances where you keep said enemy alive during/after fights for their ability. Anything that is weak enough to not be an issue to kite around is also likely to die after a single boosted attack, which probably isn't worth the effort if you really want that boost against a stronger enemy vs just using consumables.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:19
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Sojenus posted:My idealized version of Crawl is line sprint, but it's one solid line rather than turning back and forth.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:21
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You know, what drains me of my will to engage in this conversation is that lots of the ideas you guys are coming up with are very good, but I've tried them already. I don't understand exactly what prompted the need for the god to be fully reworked from the ground up. It was working well and it was well received. It has issues, but there were proposals, mine and otherwise, to tackle them incrementally without rocking the boat. In fact I was advised by Brannock to be conservative and take it slow, hence why I didn't push them yet. Then suddenly, since three days ago we're knee deep in full rework mode, and I'm seeing people rapidly go through dozens of ideas that I have already tried and discarded for very specific reasons. I don't have the energy to engage anymore. I just hope that nobody has to go through the same round trip that I did and end up in the same spot, it would be painful to watch. I'd rather see the god removed than that.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:26
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Floodkiller posted:Why not something like a proportional slaying bonus whenever you would hit two or more targets during any martial attack(maybe +3-5 for two enemies, increase by +2-3 for each additional enemy; excluding cleave from axes). I think this is a good direction to try, because (as I see it), this god is in part about encouraging you to fight more than one monster -- which usually is bad. And even if your damage output is higher, it's still generally a bad idea. Your suggestion is an offensive bonus for multiple neighbours (as is the Whirlwind in the first place!). One could also think of negative ones. Some random ideas: (a) only one adjacent monster gets to hit you for sure; all the others roll. (b) adjacent monsters may hit each other instead of you. Stuff like this. I played the god with honest intentions, so I didn't abuse walljump even though it was obvious how it can be abused, and I didn't bore myself with repeated whirlwinds in most situations. It was clear that these things have to be addressed. The moves are cool and can provide genuinely new choices. The power level does not really matter: now that you use walljump less often, we can make it more powerful.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:29
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SteelNeuron posted:You know, what drains me of my will to engage in this conversation is that lots of the ideas you guys are coming up with are very good, but I've tried them already SteelNeuron posted:I just hope that nobody has to go through the same round trip that I did and end up in the same spot, it would be painful to watch. I'd rather see the god removed than that. By the way, even though I know how much it hurts to see your creation get dismantled, disfigured and (hopefully) reassembled: many thanks for the design, the code and the ongoing patches. The god has come very, very far -- I recall the very first discussion about it on the forum. 
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Mar 19, 2017 20:33
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i remember following the council god back when it had all the stuff about weapons and all that in the beginning since it seemed like a neat idea for a god, and it's kind of depressing to see where it's ended up at this point, honestly. i had fun with it while it lasted, at least.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:35
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dpeg posted:Yes, I can see that. I think the main mismatch between you and "us" (the devs) is how we evaluated free walljumps. For you, it seemed to an issue, but a minor one which should be addressed one way or another. I think for most of us it was a dealbreaker. Even though I'm not particularly motivated to discuss the god in detail right now, I think this prompts an interesting discussion about what exactly we dislike about kiting in the first place. I think there is a gigantic mismatch between what the devs (and I know you're a particular defendant of this position) and the players find unfun about luring. While I've heard several players complain about whirlwind spam being unfun, I never once heard a complaint about wall jumps that wasn't out of a formal approach to game design. In practice, everyone loved it. More relevantly, the game is full of mechanics that allow you to gain distance from enemies for free. I still haven't heard a single convincing argument why centaurs and spriggans aren't more damaging to the game than the old form of wall jump was, since they also offer the free ability to gain distance from an enemy at will, and I would argue that an even lower cost (since you're paying with your species opportunity cost, not your god opportunity cost + the restrictions on your environment). Whenever I brought this up, the very unsatisfying response was "yes, centaurs and spriggans are also bad design" but I'm honestly not buying that, they have been with the game for ages and they have their niches. I am firmly convinced that the only form of luring that is really unfun is the form that requires a disproportionate amount of keypresses to gain one tile of distance, which would be abusing energy randomisation. That's the true enemy. Also, I think we should be making a more clear distinction between kiting and luring. While wall jump helped kiting, it didn't particularly help luring. Luring is already a built in mechanic for every species except Naga, because once you get two tiles of distance with a normal speed melee monster, you can basically take it wherever you please in the level. dpeg posted:That would be nice indeed. Like I just said, I really think the basic concept is strong and flexible. This god can work. Not in the current form. The wall jump change is something I could potentially get behind, or at least try to work with, but the major mistake is removing the dependency between whirlwind and lunge. I insist that changing whirlwind the way MPA has changed it breaks lunge. Until that's addressed, lunge will flicker between being abusable and completely worthless, and no damage bonus tweaking will change that. A double whammy is the fact that these two major, sweeping changes have been implemented at once, I think it shows a fundamental lack of confidence in the design. Trying one separate from the other would have made more sense, but we are suddenly rushing. dpeg posted:By the way, even though I know how much it hurts to see your creation get dismantled, disfigured and (hopefully) reassembled: many thanks for the design, the code and the ongoing patches. The god has come very, very far -- I recall the very first discussion about it on the forum. Thanks for the kind words. You've always been very supportive and I also hope the god ends in a good state. I can't say I'm hopeful right now but I wish the best anyway. I think you know me relatively well dpeg, what hurts is not the fact that my creation has been dismantled, it has been dismantled multiple times in the past, and very often I've implemented dev changes verbatim. I'm not attached to it. I loved seeing it burn and be reborn into something better. But this time it has been reborn into something worse, in ways that I have already experienced and measured in detail. What pains me is the fact that this experience is being disregarded even though it mirrors what a substantial amount of players are feeling with the new iteration of the god. SteelNeuron fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 20:43
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Excellent choice developers way to alienate a new dev and piss off your player base at the same time!! Bravo!!!
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Mar 19, 2017 20:59
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Decrepus posted:Please add a Yak King unique who leads a pack of yaks I can whirlwind into and die. The Death Yaktaur. He is a Yaktaur Captain with Death Knight spells. . . New thread title, or is it too long: Crawl 0.20: Excellent choice developers, way to alienate a new dev and piss off your player base at the same time! Speleothing fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 21:39
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Sojenus posted:
Combine with Gozag worship for maximum Tamatoa.
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Mar 19, 2017 21:44
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Steel Neuron - thanks for adding the coolest god in years and giving me the most fun I've had playing Crawl in a long time! What's happened is pretty crappy.
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Mar 19, 2017 22:23
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Chas McGill posted:Steel Neuron - thanks for adding the coolest god in years and giving me the most fun I've had playing Crawl in a long time! What's happened is pretty crappy. Yeah. Wu-Jian wasn't even that overpowered - despite his huge collection of powers, a godless gargoyle still does better than a Wu Jian frog.
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Mar 19, 2017 22:57
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I feel like a lot of dismissal of ideas happens because complaints are perceived as "a thing I like became less powerful and I don't like that" rather than "a thing I like became less fun to play and I don't like that." I won't say any more on the subject because I know the devs have been feeling attacked lately so this isn't a productive time to air grievances
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Mar 19, 2017 23:06
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SteelNeuron posted:Even though I'm not particularly motivated to discuss the god in detail right now, I think this prompts an interesting discussion about what exactly we dislike about kiting in the first place. I think there is a gigantic mismatch between what the devs (and I know you're a particular defendant of this position) and the players find unfun about luring. While I've heard several players complain about whirlwind spam being unfun, I never once heard a complaint about wall jumps that wasn't out of a formal approach to game design. In practice, everyone loved it. Yeah, I was going to continue the debate about how Wu Jian is not actually over powered when you include the strategic and tactical opportunity cost, but I'm really starting to get the impression that the devs have no clue about their own game. You've obviously thought a lot more about each of the powers, how they work together to encourage a certain kind of play, and how that play compares to a more traditional martial god. I really liked Wu Jian, actually restored my interest in playing that kind of character, and think you have a lot of talent for this kind of thing. They should have trusted you on this and didn't, and now Wu Jian doesn't make sense. You're right, they're headed for the chopping block because without you the designers won't realize what made the god such an exceptional contribution to the game and will continue to break something that works without a clear design vision. Good luck, I think you're making the right choice, and I hope someday we'll be able to enjoy something better from you somewhere where you have more authority over your creations.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:20
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Darth Windu posted:Excellent choice developers way to alienate a new dev and piss off your player base at the same time!! Bravo!!! The biggest clown in town is alway some rear end in a top hat on SomethingAwful.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:54
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Gimmick posting: a tragicomedy in 3 acts
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Mar 19, 2017 23:56
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Please don't point to the gimmick poster when the real reason you don't want to read the thread is that you'd prefer not to hear that the near unanimous opinion is that the change is real bad. It's a transparent baby fit.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:59
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dpeg posted:Alright, I'm done here too. Well, I guess you're a member of these forums, so... Oh, wait. I see what you mean.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:00
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Darth Windu posted:Excellent choice developers way to alienate a new dev and piss off your player base at the same time!! Bravo!!! dpeg posted:Alright, I'm done here too. lol what a bunch of god drat babies. Maybe people want the game to be cool and fun instead of some perfect balanced autismal circle jerk as desired by a small group of people who prefer to live in a hugbox? But nah, its probably the players who are wrong. Changing the poo poo some other guy added and sidelining him when he is more than capable of toning down some aspect or another because Father Knows Best is supremely lovely. Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 00:01
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