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Socialism in the US managed to survive by retreating into the university so this is what we get now; it will take effort to form a political program for the general population vs the intelligista And you know, avoiding how the bolsheviks dealt with the issue
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Mar 18, 2017 15:05
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Jeb! Repetition posted:When I talk about how "neoliberal" has lost a lot of its utility through misuse, this is a prime example of what I mean. I'm willing to accept I'm wrong on this, but using the definition of neoliberalism as center left / center right economics favoring free market capitalism, and the question being how neoliberalism hijacks feminism or antiracism I'm not sure how I'm misusing it. This thread has probably had enough of the derail so if you want to PM I wouldn't mind a good faith explanation of where my argument went wrong.
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Mar 18, 2017 16:38
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lancemantis posted:Socialism in the US managed to survive by retreating into the university so this is what we get now; it will take effort to form a political program for the general population vs the intelligista I mean this is what bernies doing right now. People pout about using "their language" all the time but you can pretty much take conservative dialogue and change out "the immigrant is stealing your tax money" to "your boss is stealing your pay/benefits". I brought this up in another thread, but as I'm talking to more libertarian types, I'm finding more common ground with then than I am liberals these days. They aren't really against "government", they're just mad about crony capitalism and use the only language of protest that's been tolerated in political discourse. I think it's much less of a jump to get say, a pro-medicare small govt conservative to give the left a shot than a urban professional liberal. Moving past the big v. small govt and arguing for an efficient govt that works for the people and not for the corporations is a good bridge, for example
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Mar 18, 2017 16:41
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Dr. Poz posted:I'm willing to accept I'm wrong on this, but using the definition of neoliberalism as center left / center right economics favoring free market capitalism, and the question being how neoliberalism hijacks feminism or antiracism I'm not sure how I'm misusing it. This thread has probably had enough of the derail so if you want to PM I wouldn't mind a good faith explanation of where my argument went wrong. i'd appreciate it if y'all could keep the "here's how you COULD be talking to ~normies~" bits in this thread, i feel like i would really benefit from more about "how to talk about socialism without memes." i did a DSA web conference about it but it was focused on the 30-second intro about DSA not the "socialism for beginners" part.
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Mar 18, 2017 19:38
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Jeb! Repetition posted:When I talk about how "neoliberal" has lost a lot of its utility through misuse, this is a prime example of what I mean. What's wrong with that use?
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Mar 18, 2017 20:38
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ChickenOfTomorrow posted:i'd appreciate it if y'all could keep the "here's how you COULD be talking to ~normies~" bits in this thread, i feel like i would really benefit from more about "how to talk about socialism without memes." i did a DSA web conference about it but it was focused on the 30-second intro about DSA not the "socialism for beginners" part. Works for me! I just didn't want to be a nuisance or distraction from the other awesome DSA stuff going on. Business Gorillas posted:I mean this is what bernies doing right now. People pout about using "their language" all the time but you can pretty much take conservative dialogue and change out "the immigrant is stealing your tax money" to "your boss is stealing your pay/benefits". Also wanted to say I've found this to be very true as well. Dr. Poz has issued a correction as of 21:14 on Mar 18, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2017 21:07
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Business Gorillas posted:Moving past the big v. small govt and arguing for an efficient govt that works for the people and not for the corporations is a good bridge, for example I completely agree with your entire post but this in particular strikes me as an effective tactic. Right libertarianism (at least the strains that aren't chugging ancap Kool-Aid 24/7) appeals to people because they want to feel like they're in control of their lives and their government. Socialism is actually the route to that but the well's been so poisoned they don't realize it, and they assume they'll have to bear the brunt of expenditures when, in reality, it should be the very "fat cat" politicians they hate so much that should.
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Mar 18, 2017 21:26
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The way I got told, besides my completely capitalist macro class giving examples of how capitalism's only endgame if left alone is feudalism, is that the deal between workers to provide their labor at a discount price and employers taking some of that value for themselves is that the employers offer strong protections to them against getting laid off or otherwise screwed over by the business world. If they don't do that, as they really aren't these days, that deal has broken down and needs to be replaced.
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Mar 18, 2017 23:14
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Samurai Sanders posted:The way I got told, besides my completely capitalist macro class giving examples of how capitalism's only endgame if left alone is feudalism, is that the deal between workers to provide their labor at a discount price and employers taking some of that value for themselves is that the employers offer strong protections to them against getting laid off or otherwise screwed over by the business world. If they don't do that, as they really aren't these days, that deal has broken down and needs to be replaced. iirc even known idiot and person who i'm glad is dead ayn rand agreed that labor needs to unionize for the free market to be healthy this got linked in the trump thread and we're already starting to see people like mark cuban realize that the writing is on the wall for the current system and that something has to give. capital is gonna have to choose between bleeding a little (concessions to labor to increase their quality of life) or bleeding a lot (lol) pretty soon, especially considering trump is such a loving oaf that he's put late stage capitalism in warp drive as opposed to the continued tightening of the vice we'd see under clinton
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Mar 18, 2017 23:45
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anime was right posted:i genuinely feel like its like how elites take up random "causes". its to remove themselves mentally from moral guilt without actually putting any effort into solving the real underlying problems because that would inconvenience them and their checkbook. What's so alien too is if you ever read any of those "compassionate capitalism" business books these people are completely convinced that their crass accumulation of wealth is benefiting the world. Everything from shoes to coconut water, they see themselves as saviors, or at least "one of the good ones," but don't bat an eyelash at the fact that they have butlers and limo drivers and write about their servants as if it's ordinary, every day life.
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Mar 19, 2017 04:00
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Study finds (recent) political polarization is asymmetric, led by insulated right-wing media ecosystem. If an insular media ecosystem can get an orange narcissist elected president, it could surely get a second New Deal passed. I wonder if we could Grassroots something like this. Maybe start with collating, and bulk disseminating links from, a list of already-existing interrelated left-wing news organizations and blogs. We'd need discriminating themes, though, for insularity. And they need to have a real basis. Something like, 'We're pro-labor. They're pro-corporate.'
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Mar 19, 2017 21:05
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Business Gorillas posted:I mean this is what bernies doing right now. People pout about using "their language" all the time but you can pretty much take conservative dialogue and change out "the immigrant is stealing your tax money" to "your boss is stealing your pay/benefits". A major leap from libertarianism to socialism is getting them to understand that what they think of as "cronyism" was the necessary historical development of "Actually Existing Capitalism." There just isn't any getting away from the incestuous links between politicians and private capital, especially not when so many politicians are millionaires themselves. I dunno how you can overcome this problem without having to literally school them on economic history. Speaking as someone who used to be a libertarian before making the big leap to socialism, there's a lot of autodidactic will that has to go on. The capitalist classes have been guaranteeing their grip on state levers of power, since Napoleon crowned himself emperor of France.
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Mar 19, 2017 21:34
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One thing to point out is that some of the first libertarians were libertarian socialists and much of the movement grew out of socialist and anarchist thought (though the way we understand it now, it has definitely grown far away from that today). Lenin in The State and Revolution even calls the state the structure which controls the class conflict endemic to capitalism. To many early socialists, the idea of the state as it was and still is conceived of would disappear once the final victory of one class, the proletariat of course, was achieved over the other. It's common in the US especially to view socialism as simply more state power, but we as socialists recognize this as absurd since no true socialist would say that the army or the police are in any way socialist institutions (though liberals sometimes will). I think many libertarians are drawn to the ideology from the idea of wanting control of their economic future without state interference. Socialism actually provides that by giving control of the economy back to workers and democratizing the economic forces of society. Obviously this line of thinking doesn't work on wealthy libertarians who basically want to own everything, but there are many poor and working class libertarians who just need to have their class consciousness raised. There is definitely a big gap to jump in america though in getting people to accept collectivist politics since they are so heavily indoctrinated in ideas of individualism.
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Mar 19, 2017 22:03
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Over my life, I've gone from Republican to Libertarian to Socialist. The latter transition was indeed premised on maximizing freedom and human health and happiness. The tools required can't fit inside Libertarian economics, but Democratic Socialism is built around those tools.
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Mar 19, 2017 22:09
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I am hungry and want to eat the rich. Where can I find them?
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Mar 19, 2017 23:40
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Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:I am hungry and want to eat the rich. Where can I find them? Turn off your monitor Woof Blitzer has issued a correction as of 00:42 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 23:45
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anyone in NY going to this?
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Mar 20, 2017 01:00
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ChickenOfTomorrow posted:anyone in NY going to this? haven't been to anything at the Base yet, but may check it out
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Mar 20, 2017 03:08
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Fullhouse posted:https://twitter.com/detroitdsa/status/842828353023479809 Thanks for pushing me to seize the NH DSA Facebook and to make the NH DSA an actual thing goons  We even have a state chapter emblem too! https://twitter.com/Angry_Jake/status/842992178502684672
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Mar 20, 2017 03:21
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I can't remember whoever recommended the Facebook group The Swoletariate but I like what they're about : Edit: There's also some, "healthy at any size," retardation from people as fat as I am so it's a mixed bag. Accretionist has issued a correction as of 03:54 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 03:44
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They big thing with libertarianism is a blindness to corporate and financial power, which is often just as, if not more coercive, than state power. Absent the special-pleading assumption that business leaders are more virtuous/smarter than civil leaders, which anyone who has worked a day in their life will quickly discover is not the case, the theory falls apart completely. If you can get them to see that companies as essentially private fiefdoms, with all the tyranny implied, you can start getting them to think about how power is structured, why democracy works as a general power structure, and all the power structures that they live under in their day to day lives. From there, it's a hop, skip and a jump to socialism. rudatron has issued a correction as of 05:39 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 05:37
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Mar 20, 2017 12:39
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I'm the DSA retweet
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Mar 20, 2017 17:42
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Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:I am hungry and want to eat the rich. Where can I find them? The hunger has been inside of us all along. Welcome comrade
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Mar 21, 2017 13:49
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it's real http://www.urbanoutfitters.com/urban/catalog/productdetail.jsp?id=40843575
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Mar 21, 2017 16:17
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jarofpiss posted:it's real Couldn't just start and stop at the Guerrillero Heroico t-shirts, huh? Gotta co-opt all the leftist imagery.
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Mar 21, 2017 16:38
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jarofpiss posted:it's real "This item is no longer available." 
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Mar 21, 2017 18:15
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TrixRabbi posted:"This item is no longer available." that was quick lol https://www.google.com/search?q=stu...P3nih6tueXsO6M:
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Mar 21, 2017 18:21
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Both hands are white. Hmmmm.
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Mar 21, 2017 19:15
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When people were talking about "neoliberal identity politics" a while back, this is basically what they meant. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/transgender-cia/520050/
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Mar 21, 2017 20:05
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Jack Gladney posted:Both hands are white. Hmmmm. the old dsa logo was like that. the stussy shirt is using the socialist international logo not the dsa one but it's still funny.
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Mar 21, 2017 20:07
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Woof Blitzer posted:Turn off your monitor On second thought maybe we shouldn't eat the rich, comrade. <dabs sweat with silk kerchief>
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Mar 21, 2017 21:41
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Thug Lessons posted:When people were talking about "neoliberal identity politics" a while back, this is basically what they meant. "Now unburdened by my crippling feelings of gender dysphoria, I am free to be a more efficient oppressor"; also there's a lot of military queers who were particularly sad that Manning didn't get shot.
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Mar 21, 2017 22:57
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Agnosticnixie posted:"Now unburdened by my crippling feelings of gender dysphoria, I am free to be a more efficient oppressor"; also there's a lot of military queers who were particularly sad that Manning didn't get shot. "Now experiencing life as a woman, I gained a deeper understanding of the rape threats I used on my noncompliant black-site informants."
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Mar 21, 2017 23:14
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Dsa-backed candidate khalid kamau just got got a 43% plurality in the Fulton, Georgia city council race. He goes to a runoff April 18th.
platzapS has issued a correction as of 08:07 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 08:05
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platzapS posted:Dsa-backed candidate khalid kamau just got got a 43% plurality in the Fulton, Georgia city council race. He goes to a runoff April 18th.  https://twitter.com/MetroATLDSA/status/844379059807272962
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Mar 22, 2017 13:17
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Owns owns owns
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Mar 22, 2017 13:30
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oi so get this. i went digging around and ended up looking at Kamau's opponent's twitter feed and found this. check these suggested donation amounts https://twitter.com/charleanp/status/841865193848225794 remember kids, $2600 = 1 vote!
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Mar 22, 2017 14:16
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Donating 106 dollars to a city councilwoman is an act of real courage.Thug Lessons posted:When people were talking about "neoliberal identity politics" a while back, this is basically what they meant. https://twitter.com/mcurryfelidae07/status/741966379105058817 Pener Kropoopkin has issued a correction as of 14:48 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 14:18
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Huh?
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Mar 22, 2017 15:03
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