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Thug Lessons posted:If you're of so low intelligence that your "attention budget" is depleted by repeatedly pressing two keys instead of one you shouldn't be part of any discussion on game design. Let me rephrase the issue then: Say you are playing a roguelike with a text input interface. In order to attack a monster to the north of you, you would type: "attack north" The developer included a key that automatically finds and attacks an enemy for you, but doing so makes you miss your attack 25% more often than manually typing it out. Design theory implies that you either have the first player who takes their time typing out "attack north" every time, or the second player who presses auto-attack and accepts missing more often to avoid having to type. The design reality is the third player, who writes a macro that binds their numpad's 8 key to automatically type "attack north" (repeating the same for all other directions), who now gets the same bonus as the first player in 1 keypress instead of 13. The fourth player finds this script and adds to it to automatically look, find the first monster to be reported, and automatically type the attack sentence for that monster. This fourth player has now recreated the developer's key, but without the 25% miss penalty. The first player is putting in more effort for no reason if they don't use these scripts, and the second player is taking a mechanical penalty for no reason if they don't use these scripts. You argue that adadada is fine because Tab is the same amount of effort, but you think/type more with adadada so it is more interesting. I (and others who are arguing against old Whirlwind) are arguing that we could script Tab to press it for us, because it is not actually interesting in practice. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 02:51
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But it is interesting in actual practice because you have to choose less ideal ground, especially with the way the various branch maps are designed, in order to adadadad. The input is irrelevant, the tactical choices it encourages are not.
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Mar 20, 2017 03:15
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Mr. Prokosch posted:But it is interesting in actual practice because you have to choose less ideal ground, especially with the way the various branch maps are designed, in order to adadadad. The input is irrelevant, the tactical choices it encourages are not. It changes "Find a 1 tile wide corridor and lure monsters back to it to fight 1v1" to "find the entrance to a 1 tile wide corridor and lure monsters back to fight 1v1, lure it in a circle back to the same spot if it moves and lets more enemies through". This is why the changes that are being suggested are to make it so that either more damage/slow/whatever secondary effect are added back in to make Whirlwind interesting (because a point of agreement is that it is not interesting as just an attack+move), but to make sure it only applies to non-1v1 situations so that it literally isn't just used for a busywork version of tabbing the majority of the time. Edit: VVV This would also be a quick fix to the Whirlwind issue that I would find acceptable (although I'm not sure how broken that would be from a power persepective), if you mean moving into the enemy/pressing Tab would cause the same chance to Slow that Whirlwind does. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 03:26
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Solve the adad problem by making WJC add slow to the player's regular attacks as well
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Mar 20, 2017 03:28
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Samog posted:Solve the adad problem by making WJC add slow to the player's regular attacks as well It literally already does that lol
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Mar 20, 2017 03:33
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lol the idea of neutering something because someone is annoyed that it takes alternating two different keystrokes instead of just repeatedly pressing the same key (even though it's usually less keystrokes total!) is the most :crawl: thing ever
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Mar 20, 2017 03:37
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lazorexplosion posted:lol the idea of neutering something because someone is annoyed that it takes alternating two different keystrokes instead of just repeatedly pressing the same key (even though it's usually less keystrokes total!) is the most :crawl: thing ever It is so :crawl:, in fact, that it's in the manual! quote:Anti-grinding
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Mar 20, 2017 03:42
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Thug Lessons posted:It literally already does that lol
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Mar 20, 2017 03:46
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adadadad also won't automatically stop if you go below whatever threshold of HP, unlike tabbing.
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Mar 20, 2017 04:04
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Whirlwinding one enemy is not grinding (also known as scumming)
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Mar 20, 2017 04:08
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Mar 20, 2017 04:16
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Thug Lessons posted:It's not any less repetitive than pressing tab over and over though? I'd argue it's less repetitive, at least I'm using different fingers and frankly it's easier to reach.
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Mar 20, 2017 04:22
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vOv posted:adadadad also won't automatically stop if you go below whatever threshold of HP, unlike tabbing. If the fight is so easy that you're considering just holding tab, you could just hold tab and not whirlwind?
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Mar 20, 2017 04:22
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Floodkiller posted:It is so :crawl:, in fact, that it's in the manual! I'm not sure if this reply is entirely serious given the post you were replying to but adhering to the philosophy is not necessarily a good thing; I'm sure this is highly subjective but I feel there's a much bigger interface problem when I play spellcasters, for example. I cannot play spellcasters too often because it's pretty draining to constantly adjust spells like fireball, beams spells and dazzling spray constantly to maximize the amount of targets affected and it adds an enormous amount of time to a single playthrough. Yes, there are plenty of cases when more targets isn't always better but having the option to do this automatically would save me minutes, if not hours depending on how many runes I'm going for. Even still, I think it's okay for these spells and the current targeting system to be around because the spells are cool and the default behavior (closest target first I think?) isn't horrible, it just means I might play tabby characters more often in between hybrid/blaster casters. Right now no slow on whirlwind kind of sucks because even if it's temporary it deviates from the concept of having some form of wombo combo/synergy going on with whirlwind + lunge. There's still walljumps but those are much more situational unless you go out of your way to drag everything to an applicable wall. I hope whirlwind makes a comeback I'm just not sure how to go about it without setting off a philosophical minefield.
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Mar 20, 2017 04:47
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Floodkiller posted:It is so :crawl:, in fact, that it's in the manual! I have an idea: why not just rejigger tabbing to take into account Whirlwind and auto-use it if available instead of just smacking your face into the nearest enemy? Seems like it would solve the problem pretty neatly without removing the funhaver aspect of WJC, and the only reason I'm not trying it myself is because I'm not exactly much of a programmer.
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Mar 20, 2017 04:58
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Mar 20, 2017 05:00
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apple posted:I'm not sure if this reply is entirely serious given the post you were replying to but adhering to the philosophy is not necessarily a good thing; I'm sure this is highly subjective but I feel there's a much bigger interface problem when I play spellcasters, for example. I cannot play spellcasters too often because it's pretty draining to constantly adjust spells like fireball, beams spells and dazzling spray constantly to maximize the amount of targets affected and it adds an enormous amount of time to a single playthrough. Yes, there are plenty of cases when more targets isn't always better but having the option to do this automatically would save me minutes, if not hours depending on how many runes I'm going for. Even still, I think it's okay for these spells and the current targeting system to be around because the spells are cool and the default behavior (closest target first I think?) isn't horrible, it just means I might play tabby characters more often in between hybrid/blaster casters. It was half serious. I don't think adhering to the philosophy to the letter at all times is entirely possible either, but it should probably be taken into consideration first to determine if the fun aspect is worth more than the philosophy it breaks by keeping it. For the record, Whirlwind and Wall Jump are broken and each have their own problems, but I don't consider either as bad as Centaurs (and Spriggans in a lesser degree, since at least they have significant drawbacks) in both unlimited free kiting and tedious melee mechanics (polearm/ranged weapon kiting) that involve using a lot more input to perform the same function but in a safer/more powerful fashion. Also, pre-emptive apology for getting Centaurs and Spriggans removed. LORD OF BOOTY posted:I have an idea: why not just rejigger tabbing to take into account Whirlwind and auto-use it if available instead of just smacking your face into the nearest enemy? Seems like it would solve the problem pretty neatly without removing the funhaver aspect of WJC, and the only reason I'm not trying it myself is because I'm not exactly much of a programmer. I guess you could tie tab to automatically try to walk around the monster clockwise (and go counter-clockwise if unable, or just attack head on if neither are available) for WJC worshippers, but as a lazy programmer I would prefer to just tie the slow chance to normal attacks like it was proposed above as it would have roughly the same impact for less work. Edit: I also liked the idea of merging Uskayaw and WJC. Have all the martial arts from 0*, have current piety affect the strength and proc chance of the martial arts secondary effects so it encourages staying in a big fight over dragging single enemies to a corridor, probably replace the Line Pass with Serpent's Lash. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 05:06
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Overall I have mixed feelings about the recent changes but not much else to do other than Play The Video Game for me Also this was unintentionally funny so: code:
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Mar 20, 2017 05:28
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If you wanted to be really strict you could make WJC autoattacks slow targets if and only if there's an unoccupied space adjacent to both you and the target, but we all know this issue is just a psyop to distract the community from the way the devs are dragging their feet on Singularity.
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Mar 20, 2017 05:47
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Ferrinus posted:If you wanted to be really strict you could make WJC autoattacks slow targets if and only if there's an unoccupied space adjacent to both you and the target, but we all know this issue is just a psyop to distract the community from the way the devs are dragging their feet on Singularity. Alright, I'm done here too. The biggest clown in town is alway some rear end in a top hat on SomethingAwful.
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Mar 20, 2017 06:17
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If the optimal strategy for the most dangerous encounters was to corridor fight even with whirlwind slow, why is removing whirlwind slow an issue? Just Tab It But then I'm someone who will use whirlwind frequently even if it doesn't slow and don't have any problems with this change. apple posted:Right now no slow on whirlwind kind of sucks because even if it's temporary it deviates from the concept of having some form of wombo combo/synergy going on with whirlwind + lunge. There's still walljumps but those are much more situational unless you go out of your way to drag everything to an applicable wall. I hope whirlwind makes a comeback I'm just not sure how to go about it without setting off a philosophical minefield.
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Mar 20, 2017 06:17
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just using a low cost activated ability to kill one of the most dangerous melee enemies in the game in melee without it even getting a chance to attack lads also using whirlwind to maneuver out of poison clouds while still killing swamp dragons in the same move and using wall jump against packs of death yaks to get myself into a better position while still damaging them, haven't had any need to even use my capstone ability yet and haven't used enough piety to go down a pip at any point. really tragic that this god was nerfed into the ground and is useless now 
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Mar 20, 2017 06:19
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Darox posted:If the optimal strategy for the most dangerous encounters was to corridor fight even with whirlwind slow, why is removing whirlwind slow an issue? Just Tab It I have no objective measure of Goodness of said combo, definitely subjective. I like the concept of having multiple melee abilities that synergize with each other, lunge is flawed but I think having something there instead of nothing is better; whirlwind still owns but the lack of slow definitely feels more plain is how I'd put it. The extra keystrokes for lunge don't feel offensive either, it just felt like something I would cash in on sometimes.  I'm definitely way more concerned by stuff like managing spellcasting targeting.I think a change that tries to make ground in terms of exploring interesting alternatives to tab would focus on the other effects of whirlwind, i.e. slow and setting up lunge and how to make that more interesting and flow more naturally, not the other way around which precisely makes it the most similar to tab (unless the goal is to argue for removal of whirlwind in which case point taken). IronicDongz posted:just using a low cost activated ability to kill one of the most dangerous melee enemies in the game in melee without it even getting a chance to attack lads Yes serpent's lash is pretty OP and whirlwind is still strong, anyone who isn't on the same page on that is crazy.
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Mar 20, 2017 06:45
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Lunge as a bonus to opening a fight and as additional flexibility while moving around groups is good. Lunge as a sick combo you repeatedly use against a single target is where I have issues. I don't think focusing on the debuff aspect of whirlwind over the damage is a good idea. If you did that it would stop being an alternative to regular melee combat and start becoming a weird version of temporal distortion that you activate in an unusual way. Whirlwind, Walljump & Lunge could all be 100% damage attacks with no other special abilities and they would still be good and influence how I take on encounters. This is doubly true once you consider Serpents Lash and Heaven on Earth.
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Mar 20, 2017 07:01
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lazorexplosion posted:lol the idea of neutering something because someone is annoyed that it takes alternating two different keystrokes instead of just repeatedly pressing the same key (even though it's usually less keystrokes total!) is the most :crawl: thing ever Spells have the potential to be similarly tedious, but in practice they avoid that by scaling up into various forms of AOE as you progress, eventually hitting most of the screen if you invest enough to use L9s. You're also not moving around while using them, which reduces some of the cognitive load & makes it easier to spam z-enter without misaiming. WJC is just the same adadadadadadad forever. In my perfect Crawl world, it'd be better to use WJC moves over tab some, but not all of the time; that way you'd have the benefits of the god & break up the endless tabbing without turning tedious. The problem is that it's going to be really loving hard to find the perfect balance there, and I expect to see WJC oscillating between being overpowered & being too weak to bother with instead. (While we're on the subject of reducing tab: have I mentioned how tight the xp curve is nowadays, and how that's making it really annoying to play hybrids without making them all into lazy melee tabbers? There's basically no reason to start with a hybrid class when you're punished for hybridizing early & splitting your xp too much. By midgame, when you can actually spare the xp, you'll have likely found a hybrid book or two anyway.)
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Mar 20, 2017 07:09
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Darox posted:Lunge as a bonus to opening a fight and as additional flexibility while moving around groups is good. Lunge as a sick combo you repeatedly use against a single target is where I have issues. That may be the case! Debuff stuff, if nothing else, seemed cool and thematic for a martial arts god: striking pressure points and that kind of jazz should do weird things = debuff. If straight damage is determined to give way for better gameplay then so be it, hopefully playtesting reveals that. The god is likely going to keep changing though; since SteelNeuron is out of the equation it seems kind of up in the air where WJC will end up.
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Mar 20, 2017 07:16
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Mu. posted:I played a Wu Jian character the other day and I did not understand what I was supposed to be doing but I just walked around giant groups of enemies in big circles like a huge retard and everything died, including me. This is great, your posts are great, thank you. And I'm honestly tempted to put the 2-3 posters who are generating 80% of the new posts on ignore, holy poo poo shut up.
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Mar 20, 2017 07:19
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Haifisch posted:(While we're on the subject of reducing tab: have I mentioned how tight the xp curve is nowadays, and how that's making it really annoying to play hybrids without making them all into lazy melee tabbers? There's basically no reason to start with a hybrid class when you're punished for hybridizing early & splitting your xp too much. By midgame, when you can actually spare the xp, you'll have likely found a hybrid book or two anyway.) This is something I've paid attention to. Don't worry too much on that front. I think Crawl has already come towards approaching that point of experience tension, if not already broken it. Remember, the game is an ongoing project.
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Mar 20, 2017 07:56
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Hey if you want to argue for neutering it for balance reasons knock yourself out, but pretending that you need to do it because alternating two different buttons is just too arduous compared to pressing one button the same number of times is hilarious.
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Mar 20, 2017 08:18
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On the topic of whirlwind vs tab, since it seems to be where the conversation is focused now: If you think the change to whirlwind has made it compete with tab, unfortunately that's not the case, whirlwind is still strictly better than tab due to damage frontloading. In the most common case where your attack delay is lower than weapon delay, it's better to whirlwind against a single target since multi-strikes reduce the chance of retaliation. The reason why I proposed a significant drop on whirlwind damage is that it would create a real choice when choosing how to approach an enemy, between maximizing immediate damage and setting up a more complicated fight. These two answers are the kind that match very well with the question "Is this enemy threatening?". The changes that we have instead appear to solve the problem by making whirlwind worse, but don't go far enough to make it worse than tab and go in the wrong direction by making it more similar to tab, invading its spot even further. Another reason why I wanted lower damage on tab is to create a feedback look when spamming "adadadad". If the player knows that spamming whirlwind once the slow lands is suboptimal, the incentive to spam at all disappears, and choosing to use the martial attacks requires 100% attention. This would be very tedious without a mindless alternative, which is important in a game full of irrelevant fights, and that's why tab should keep the role of most efficient damage dealer without any extra perks. If anything, the current iteration of the god is the one with the most incentive for "adadadadad", it just reduced the margin by which it is better than tabbing, but that does not solve the problem if you want to play optimally. I made the point in the tavern that the cornerstone of the god is feedback loops while fighting. Taking an action, looking at the result, and choosing the next action. What many players have found engaging about it is these constant exchanges of information with the game when fighting in melee. My biggest design flaw was having a whirlwind that could be spammed without a feedback loop, which some players correctly identified as tedious, and I agree. The solution to this problem is to add a feedback loop to whirlwind while keeping tab relevant. Instead, what we have done is removed several feedback loops, which will result in more, not less spam. Case in point: The current wall jump is trivially better than tab, since it does the same + a chance to distract, so if the level geometry allows for it, you should just "adadadad" in reverse. Suggesting that "now that it can't be used to escape, we can buff it!" goes diametrically opposed to making it a better ability. SteelNeuron fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 09:09
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Mr. Prokosch posted:Good luck, I think you're making the right choice, and I hope someday we'll be able to enjoy something better from you somewhere where you have more authority over your creations. Thank you for the kind words! Actually, I've enjoyed the process of developing the god so much (and interacting with the players meanwhile) that I'm going to be working on my own roguelike. It won't have blackjack and hookers. I'll let you know when there's something worth showing 
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Mar 20, 2017 09:29
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Mu. posted:Instead of nerfing this god I believe it should actually be made slightly more powerful, but altars to the god should only be allowed to spawn in the Hall of Blades (25% chance). Powerful, but rare. My reasoning is that this decision would make everybody unhappy, and I like it when other people are unhappy. Missed this last night, but 
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Mar 20, 2017 13:15
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IronicDongz posted:really tragic that this god was nerfed into the ground and is useless now I don't think anybody is claiming the god is weak now. It needed a nerf before, it needs a nerf now. The problem is that the wrong things were nerfed and it is less fun to use.
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Mar 20, 2017 13:20
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SteelNeuron posted:I don't think anybody is claiming the god is weak now. It needed a nerf before, it needs a nerf now. The problem is that the wrong things were nerfed and it is less fun to use. The devs turn their gaze upon you. Your effort twists and deforms!
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Mar 20, 2017 15:32
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You hit the dev with Fun Design He resists!
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Mar 20, 2017 15:59
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Haifisch posted:In my perfect Crawl world, it'd be better to use WJC moves over tab some, but not all of the time; that way you'd have the benefits of the god & break up the endless tabbing without turning tedious. The problem is that it's going to be really loving hard to find the perfect balance there, and I expect to see WJC oscillating between being overpowered & being too weak to bother with instead. It's not that it's really hard, it's that it makes no sense in the context of Crawl. It's a zero-cost ability. It will always, all things being equal, be either better or worse than the other zero-cost abilities you can use, like tab. Fortunately in Crawl all things are rarely equal, and there already exist plenty of situations where you don't want to fight in the open.
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Mar 20, 2017 16:12
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tote up a bags posted:Please quote this when the god considered almost universally as fun as hell is removed in favour of balance in a game that has "challenge species" to make it harder and thus unbalanced
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Mar 20, 2017 16:57
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Has it really been axed already?
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Mar 20, 2017 16:59
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Carcer posted:Has it really been axed already? No more like: Decrepus posted:The devs turn their gaze upon you.
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Mar 20, 2017 17:01
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is the wuxia god actually so strong compared to every other god in the game that it needs more nerfs
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Mar 20, 2017 17:03
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