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yes, I do believe that capitalist-driven charity, as well as prosperity gospel, are systemically rotten. But if you cannot hold a reasoned and polite debate without resorting to insults and "i'm rubber and you're glue" then you are not worth engaging with.
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Mar 16, 2017 21:34
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Agnosticnixie posted:I'm sure you'll feel better merely ascribing a lack of empathy instead, since clearly the non-religious left must just love capitalism and the system, and must never do anything charitable. And I never ascribed a lack of empathy, I said that the system is being used as a way to feel better about feeling bad that others are less-fortunate, while allowing one to not do anything about it. rudatron spent a hell of a lot of words trying to say that nobody's being blamed, and then you immediately go right back to it. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 21:38
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Repeatedly acting like being aware that charity doesn't remove structural inegality means you're an uncharitable person does really nothing for the strength of your argument. It's possible to want to help people and still be aware that it's not the ultimate end-goal solution. Non-religious soup kitchens are a thing.
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Mar 16, 2017 21:44
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As are religious ones, again, my assertion is that religion is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Responding to the suggestion that any ideological motivation that leads someone to act to assist others is good, with "well actually really big charities are just another form of capitalism" is not helping your argument any. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 21:54
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OwlFancier posted:That depends entirely on your religious ideology, if your religious ideology emphasises charity and self sacrifice for the wellbeing of your fellows like, y'know, the bible has some pretty ace verses on, I'd say you're probably on a pretty good track. Who gives a poo poo about the Bible?
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Mar 16, 2017 21:59
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Shbobdb posted:Who gives a poo poo about the Bible? Who do you think, based on the sentence you quoted, might care about the bible. You get three guesses.
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Mar 16, 2017 22:02
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OwlFancier posted:Who do you think, based on the sentence you quoted, might care about the bible. The people ruining the planet forever The people ruining the planet forever
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Mar 16, 2017 22:10
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OwlFancier posted:Who do you think, based on the sentence you quoted, might care about the bible. Well, some of the bible. It's hard to really appeal to the whole of it in a way that's particularly coherent given how many things are in there.
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Mar 16, 2017 22:19
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OwlFancier posted:Who do you think, based on the sentence you quoted, might care about the bible. "Christians" theoretically. But guess what? The Bible is an empty text. I don't care what people read, I care what they do. Supply Side Jesus is much more immediate in the world than whatever peace-and-love Jesus you are suggesting.
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Mar 16, 2017 22:41
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Shbobdb posted:"Christians" theoretically. But guess what? The Bible is an empty text. What are you a tankie?? Are you some kind of communotard? Everything is the same and nothing is meaningful. Allow me to spin what I think is some kind of web but is just nakedly desperate flailing from someone who doesn't even know the terms they're trying to argue.
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Mar 16, 2017 22:50
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OwlFancier posted:If all it takes to be a leftist is to ignore the unfortunate in hopes that the revolution will happen and help them, that's loving laughable. ok, let's do this one more time even though you're going to ignore this post and keep railing against your strawman: Charitable people are not bad. Charity itself is not inherently bad. A society structured so that poor and working class people have to rely on charity to survive is bad. Arguing that charity is as valuable and good as creating a society where it isn't necessary is bad. As long as a secular, democratic social safety net exists, there's nothing wrong with charity. If that safety net does not exist, charity only papers over the intrinsic societal problem.
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Mar 16, 2017 23:26
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:ok, let's do this one more time even though you're going to ignore this post and keep railing against your strawman: Dr. Fishopolis Wants Generous People to Burn at Stake. Christianity Proven True as Result of that Particular Moral Failing. - some d&d moron
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Mar 16, 2017 23:29
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zh1 posted:What are you a tankie?? Are you some kind of communotard? Everything is the same and nothing is meaningful. Allow me to spin what I think is some kind of web but is just nakedly desperate flailing from someone who doesn't even know the terms they're trying to argue. Well sure, but you see, from a materialist perspective...
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Mar 16, 2017 23:30
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Well sure, but you see, from a materialist perspective... Things are only thing if you thing. If you don't thing, you're a anti-thinger and you therefore thing. I post in d&d 2017. What you thing is just a thing that I can thing if you thing. I can post  to show you that you thing, I do a thing, I can't do THAT thing, at least not on Tuesday, but you do a thing and therefore a thing is wrong if you do it. Things are not things though when I post, they are only things when you thing the thing that things and I am not involved.
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Mar 16, 2017 23:40
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One Thread With Actual Debate In It Rated Poorly in D&D 2017; Users Complain of Real Things Being Discussed
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Mar 16, 2017 23:45
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The Kingfish posted:So what's the problem? How is that different than a political movement?
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Mar 17, 2017 09:24
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zh1 posted:This forum is deader than the real Christ after 3 days stinking up that loving cave or whatever, what do you expect? For years now this place has been a punchline, and it's no surprise, everyone decent has been banned by the worthless mod/admin team. Good-faith poster zh1 gets 7 days, while noted crazy-poster/troll shdpbbbt gets 3. OwlFancier has a total meltdown and spooges all over this thread for like 48 hours using fallacious arguments to defend his "anti-leftist" agenda - de nada. Got it! we're /r/pol/ now, I'm moving away far and fast. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 17, 2017 09:40
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God is actually great and works in mysterious ways.
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Mar 17, 2017 14:54
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He's great at being not-real, I'll give you that. 
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Mar 17, 2017 15:17
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zh1 posted:This forum is deader than the real Christ after 3 days stinking up that loving cave or whatever, what do you expect? For years now this place has been a punchline, and it's no surprise, everyone decent has been banned by the worthless mod/admin team. Everyone says this but if there were better forums out there I'd be posting there and not here. Every other forum I have been to either has less activity than this forum or basically no moderation.
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Mar 17, 2017 15:32
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Do people who believe in science and value intellectual thought despise religion? Yes
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Mar 20, 2017 02:18
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The entire point of religion is to denigrate human achievement and tell us all how worthless we are. It's counter-revolutionary, reactionary at heart. It is worship of a cosmic Hitler.
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Mar 20, 2017 11:51
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Panzeh posted:The entire point of religion is to denigrate human achievement and tell us all how worthless we are. I disagree on this. If anything, religion is more anthropocentric than a scientific worldview, most religious traditions placing man at the centre of God's or gods' project. In contrast, a purely scientific perspective places humankind in a vast and unforgiving universe, at the mercy of violent cosmic forces we're powerless to act against and often even to predict or comprehend. We are truly insignficant before the vastness of the godless universe, no divine providence protects us, we are but insects, microbes. Panzeh posted:It's counter-revolutionary, reactionary at heart. It is worship of a cosmic Hitler. This is only true of monotheistic religions and even then if you conceive of god as all-knowing and all-loving and all-powerful then he or she or it's really more a force than a personality, a unifying idea rather than a dictatorial figurehead.
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Mar 20, 2017 13:21
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Ask a kid getting his eyes devoured by parasites if he feels like he's being protected from a vast and unforgiving universe by divine providence.
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Mar 20, 2017 13:59
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Who What Now posted:Ask a kid getting his eyes devoured by parasites if he feels like he's being protected from a vast and unforgiving universe by divine providence. Maybe faith sustains him, maybe it doesn't. My point wasn't that god exists or that there's someone up there looking out for us, just that the idea that religion denigrates man's place in the universe in contrast to a purely materialistic worldview is quite false. The kid's going blind either way, human beings are still just meat whether they believe god exists or not.
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Mar 20, 2017 14:06
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We'll ask him again on judgment day.
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Mar 20, 2017 14:05
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edit: Should have read TomViolence's post. They made the point I was trying to make. Oh well.
NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 14:12
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TomViolence posted:In contrast, a purely scientific perspective places humankind in a vast and unforgiving universe, at the mercy of violent cosmic forces we're powerless to act against and often even to predict or comprehend. We are truly insignficant before the vastness of the godless universe, no divine providence protects us, we are but insects, microbes. The bible puts us at an endgame, pretending that we are the main characters, that we will be for all of time. Well, at least until we heatwave or freeze to death. Science acknowledges that while we are fascinating creatures, we hold no significance on the cosmic scale. However, one day we could achieve such significance. Reality leads to results and fairy tales lead us directly to our demise.
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Mar 20, 2017 16:28
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Tonetta posted:The bible...pretend[s] that we are the main characters The Bible, composed by man, inspired by God, is an account of man's relationship to the divine, and thus also an account of man's relationship with one another and creation as a whole. Most of the canon demonstrates what a bunch of lame gently caress-ups we are, which is why the whole thing is important to begin with. The Bible isn't revelation for dogs or birds; we are the "main characters", insofar as we by our free and rational nature have certain responsibilities and have always struggled to inscribe into our hearts the greatest commandments. The Bible isn't "the story of the universe." it's "man reckoning with his place in creation." quote:Science acknowledges that while we are fascinating creatures, we hold no significance on the cosmic scale. Science says no such thing. "Significance on the cosmic scale" may be the case quantitatively, as we are not so large as star or powerful as a black hole or resilient as certain viruses (though does a star have anything so interesting as a human brain?), but this isn't the same relative or qualitative significance we're generally talking about when we say man is "significant". A scientist could just as easily declare that we, as thinking beings not only able to perceive and understand the universe, but change both ourselves and the world to achieve our aims, makes us already very significant. Significance is a philosophical (and theological!) position, not scientific. And the Bible echoes here: we are humbled before the vast and inconceivable depth of the cosmos, we are ash or dirt, yet we are special and beloved in our being. quote:However, one day we could achieve such significance. See how quickly you slipped into that kind of qualitative concept of significance here? If we skip back to the quantitative assessment this doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? And at what point have we changed so much that though we're now "cosmically significant" we're also no longer even human? And where's the line between insignificant and significant, human and post-human? Though informed by material facts, both of these are philosophical distinctions.
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Mar 20, 2017 20:33
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Tonetta posted:
I believe in the significance of all, man and woman, old and young, educated and not, intelligent and dumb. If by significance you're indulging in some level of post-humanity technological fantasy, well, Lord save me from such significance. Ftr, I believed these particular things when I was an atheist too. CountFosco fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 20:45
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Bolocko posted:Most of the canon demonstrates what a bunch of lame gently caress-ups we are, This is what people talk about when they call some religions denigrating. If you think mankind is a bunch of lame gently caress-ups then that's incredibly sad and disappointing.
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Mar 20, 2017 20:58
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Who What Now posted:This is what people talk about when they call some religions denigrating. If you think mankind is a bunch of lame gently caress-ups then that's incredibly sad and disappointing. OK. Man is great and "very good", beloved by God, elevated by the Incarnation; "for God so loved the world..." etc.; "the glory of God is a man fully alive." Man isn't a lame gently caress-up by nature, but plays one on TV, often following the path of concupiscence that leads to suffering for one's self and for others. We are good, but we don't always choose the good, and sometimes we choose the very bad. So we're not a bunch of lame gently caress-ups, but we also kill a lot of people, wreck ecosystems, exploit others, stick gum under desks, and so forth — yeah, when telling the story of man's activity on Earth, we act like a bunch of lame gently caress-ups. We stumble. The Bible is us asking God "what the hell, man" and God trying to push back to show us how to realize our true human glory, reassuring us to have no fear and to trust even as we stumble.
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Mar 20, 2017 21:41
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Who What Now posted:This is what people talk about when they call some religions denigrating. If you think mankind is a bunch of lame gently caress-ups then that's incredibly sad and disappointing. The inherent flawedness of mankind isn't a mere emotional position. It's a legitimate philosophical question. When I was taking a course in Confucianism years ago, I remember seeing the debate over whether man was inherently good, only to be corrupted by the world, vs. man being inherently bad, to be reformed by civilization, play out among their scholars as well. Mankind is a bunch of lame gently caress ups. It's also a bunch of incredible, bold, wonderful people as well.
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Mar 21, 2017 03:16
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The thing about broad generalizations is that they're always wrong*. *the irony here is on purpose. I just want that to be clear for some of you
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Mar 21, 2017 03:28
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Bolocko posted:Man is great and "very good", beloved by God, elevated by the Incarnation; "for God so loved the world..." etc.; "the glory of God is a man fully alive." Man isn't a lame gently caress-up by nature, but plays one on TV, often following the path of concupiscence that leads to suffering for one's self and for others. We are good, but we don't always choose the good, and sometimes we choose the very bad. Just as valid as your personal interpretation others focus on sin, rules to be obeyed, Hell and the end-times. You see hope and trust, others see fear and despair. If the Bible poses a question it provides no answers, or rather any and all answers you can discern through your biases, prejudices, flawed assumptions and limited knowledge.
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Mar 21, 2017 05:00
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The realization that the universe is hostile & unforgiving is a precondition to changing it. A belief in a universe that is fundamentally 'just' encourages inaction. You have to see things how they are, before you can fix it.
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Mar 21, 2017 07:57
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How in the hell can you conceive of people being gently caress ups in a scientific view? We are winning so hard we almost circle back around to losing. We have literally dominated the land area of Earth. There is absolutely nothing that poses a threat to us besides ourselves and astronomical level events. Even a mass virus outbreak that kills 90% of humans we would recover from in a few hundred years, which is nothing really in the scope of life. We have the ability to pass down what we have learned to future generations, slowly making us stronger. The idea that we are a bunch of gently caress ups comes from religion comparing humans to hypothetical perfect or larger than life beings. We are winning so much that we have time to sit back and ponder these ideas and debate whether people are "good" or "bad" without worrying about survival at all, using a complex electronic network that connects everyone on Earth with internet access. It makes me incredibly sad that religious people view humans as being unworthy, or sinners, or in need of outside guidance. We are so much greater than that and we are only on the potential starting line of our growth. Just another block adding weight to the idea that religion is ultimately a detriment to progressive causes.
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Mar 21, 2017 11:43
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RasperFat posted:It makes me incredibly sad that liberals people view humans as being unworthy, or sinners, or in need of outside guidance.
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Mar 21, 2017 12:46
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RasperFat posted:How in the hell can you conceive of people being gently caress ups in a scientific view? (etc.) This is something a lot of people — religious and non — don't always grasp, which reveals itself every time someone scoffs and says, LOL, but if the Torah/Bible/Qur'an/other were really the so-called word of God then wouldn't he have thrown some advanced physics in there? Some advanced chemistry for formulating important medicine? Going into space is an excellent achievement. Curing disease is a huge boon to public health. We harnessed the power of the atom! Good job, us! But we are talking about human relationships. The Bible is about relationships. We can pass things down to grow our knowledge, but we also pass down race hatred and family blood feuds. We cure disease, but oh, sorry, it involved experimentation without consent on a minority population and resulted in some terrible outcomes that affect their families for generations. We harnessed the atom but then we put it into a bomb and used it. What a wonderful variety of devices we have, built using materials mined in third-world nations by families struggling to live, that enable us to ignore the person sitting right next to us. etc. quote:The idea that we are a bunch of gently caress ups comes from religion comparing humans to hypothetical perfect or larger than life beings. It comes from the idea that the most important thing is to love each other, and we, often, don't. It doesn't mean we should be ashamed as gently caress-ups by nature, it doesn't mean we are unworthy, it means we can and should acknowledge our errors and get better, because we are worthy and good.
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Mar 21, 2017 17:23
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The Bible is really bad at teaching about relationships, though. It's actively harmful in a lot of instances.
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Mar 21, 2017 17:50
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