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There's a nice bit of irony in that Orga, a dude known for winning battles with these insanely convoluted and desperate plans, is ultimately taken out by a basic drive-by shooting.
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Mar 20, 2017 19:07
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I think it's entirely possible McGillis leaked the info to someone else rather than that he set it up himself (though honestly there are scant few people, Gordon Nobliss is about it and he's sort of a weird choice. That or Makanai but Makanai feels similarly weird considering.) But the idea that McGillis was completely unconnected and it was sheer coincidence rings pretty false after an entire episode about why it makes sense for McGillis to do it.
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Mar 20, 2017 19:07
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Kanos posted:The only other faction who would be interested in doing this would be Gjallarhorn The idea that he somehow did it because he said a couple of enigmatic things and might have potentially maybe had the time to make a phone call while rushing out to fight, completely ignoring the fact that the shooting was done by goons who looked suspiciously like Nobliss Gordon's men and that Nobliss Gordon has set himself against Tekkadan is pretty loving stupid.
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Mar 20, 2017 19:30
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I hope it's never fully explained.
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Mar 20, 2017 19:45
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Lemon-Lime posted:The idea that he somehow did it because he said a couple of enigmatic things and might have potentially maybe had the time to make a phone call while rushing out to fight, completely ignoring the fact that the shooting was done by goons who looked suspiciously like Nobliss Gordon's men and that Nobliss Gordon has set himself against Tekkadan is pretty loving stupid. You're right. Clearly they spent the entire episode setting up McGillis considering Orga a rival for Mika only to have Orga assassinated by a minor side character with no connection at all to the entire rest of the episode. As was pointed out it wasn't a 'couple of enigmatic things'. Literally every single bit of screentime McGillis had this episode was either related to Orga or talking to Mika and getting Orgablocked. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 19:52
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I do have to wonder, what did killing Orga actually accomplish with respect to Mika? Orga laid out his plan pretty unambiguously before he died, is anyone going to be able to make Mika deviate from that in any way? Seems like all it accomplished was to remove Mika's limiter and make everyone sad. I could see him being lost and able to be manipulated once that final direction is gone, but not before. Possibly McGillis just wants to watch the world burn. His lone wolf monologue at the end certainly seemed more 'gently caress everything' rather than 'I have a sweet plan to make Mika my best bud'
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Mar 20, 2017 20:25
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OTOH McGillis wanting to be best buds with Mika just to make Gaelio jealous would be funny.
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Mar 20, 2017 20:29
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ImpAtom posted:You're right. Clearly they spent the entire episode setting up McGillis considering Orga a rival for Mika only to have Orga assassinated by a minor side character with no connection at all to the entire rest of the episode. So how do you reconcile that with his later monologuing about wolves hunting in packs and that poo poo being not for him? Because that reads like he gave up on Mika.
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Mar 20, 2017 20:31
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Xy Hapu posted:I do have to wonder, what did killing Orga actually accomplish with respect to Mika? Orga laid out his plan pretty unambiguously before he died, is anyone going to be able to make Mika deviate from that in any way? Seems like all it accomplished was to remove Mika's limiter and make everyone sad. I could see him being lost and able to be manipulated once that final direction is gone, but not before. I think McGillis genuinely is underestimating Mika's connection to Orga. Mika is so dedicated to Orga that when asked what to name his child he wants to turn to Orga with it. I don't think anyone in (or out) of the show really know what Mika's response to Orga's death is going to be except 'extremely bad.' Without knowing Mika as the audience does it's easy to imagine that Mika is a more normal person who is just very loyal to Orga. Remember that McGillis genuinely didn't seem to get Mika and Orga's relationship this episode and seemed befuddled by Mika's responses. "Hey, if Orga dies, then Mika won't have anyone else to turn to and I can totally take advantage of that" is a totally reasonable idea if you think Mika is just a loyal dude and not the completely insane co-dependent mess that Mika is. genericnick posted:So how do you reconcile that with his later monologuing about wolves hunting in packs and that poo poo being not for him? Because that reads like he gave up on Mika. I assume that line was "Well, they're outlived their usefulness, time for betrayal." It's certainly more evidence that McGillis isn't doing it just to be nice to Orga.
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Mar 20, 2017 20:33
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Just lol if you think that McGillis murdering the hypotenuse of his working relationship with Mika isn't something he would do. So far he has always taken the shortest, most convenient path to getting what he wants. This is no different.
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Mar 20, 2017 20:56
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Out of every fight in the show, the only time Mikazuki displayed outright cruelty and malice was when he butchered Carta and her subordinates in response for killing Biscuit. Now piloting a machine that seems more Mobile Armor the Mobile Suit in terms of destructive power, the most important person in Mikazuki's world is now dead. McGilles and everybody else involved in the plot to kill Orga has just opened Pandora's Box and in a horrifying way it should be fun to see just what in the IBO setting will survive what is about to come.
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Mar 20, 2017 21:05
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Lemon-Lime posted:The idea that he somehow did it because he said a couple of enigmatic things and might have potentially maybe had the time to make a phone call while rushing out to fight, completely ignoring the fact that the shooting was done by goons who looked suspiciously like Nobliss Gordon's men and that Nobliss Gordon has set himself against Tekkadan is pretty loving stupid. Nobliss had no way of knowing about Orga's location. Lots of use don't think Nobliss is uninvolved. I think McGillis told Nobliss the location.
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Mar 20, 2017 21:10
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MonsterEnvy posted:Nobliss had no way of knowing about Orga's location. Lots of use don't think Nobliss is uninvolved. I think McGillis told Nobliss the location. Watching Kudelia's office is a total nobrainer. The only other place you could try to lay an ambush would be the farm. ImpAtom posted:
But the wolf in question is clearly Mika (Lupus Rex). So the motive of getting rid of Orga to recruit Mika doesn't work.
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Mar 20, 2017 21:31
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genericnick posted:But the wolf in question is clearly Mika (Lupus Rex). So the motive of getting rid of Orga to recruit Mika doesn't work. "Recruit Mika" and take advantage of Mika aren't the same thing. With Orga dead there's very little that Mika will do that isn't in McGillis' favor unless Mika finds out McGillis was involved somehow. Even if Mika just goes batshit on the Gjallerhorn forces and dies doing so that's a win for McGillis compared to Orga's plan.
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Mar 20, 2017 21:35
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Hunt11 posted:He used a mobile worker in battle during the first episode. Nah, it was someone else (I want to say Biscuit) who was piloting it. Orga was sticking his head out, coordinating the battle. My bad, it was Eugene. derra fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Mar 21, 2017 |
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Mar 21, 2017 00:18
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ImpAtom posted:"Recruit Mika" and take advantage of Mika aren't the same thing. With Orga dead there's very little that Mika will do that isn't in McGillis' favor unless Mika finds out McGillis was involved somehow. Even if Mika just goes batshit on the Gjallerhorn forces and dies doing so that's a win for McGillis compared to Orga's plan. Which, to be fair, seems pretty likely, given that Mika has shown a remarkably good radar for people's hidden agendas. But McGillis has spent a lot of time seeing the Mikazuki he wants to exist instead of the Mikazuki that actually exists. One more instance would be quite likely.
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Mar 21, 2017 00:49
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It's obviously either Nobliss or McGillis through Nobliss.
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Mar 21, 2017 01:12
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In some way, shape, or form I hope it was Iok who set it up.
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Mar 21, 2017 02:33
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Ethiser posted:In some way, shape, or form I hope it was Iok who set it up. Iok's actions gave Orga the chance to slip away.
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Mar 21, 2017 02:37
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Iok ends up responsible for the death of every single member of Tekkadan. The final shot is him accidentally cashing his mobile suit onto the house that Kudelia and Atra are staying in, followed by him stumbling out covered in cartoon soot.
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Mar 21, 2017 02:41
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Lemon-Lime posted:The idea that he somehow did it because he said a couple of enigmatic things and might have potentially maybe had the time to make a phone call while rushing out to fight, completely ignoring the fact that the shooting was done by goons who looked suspiciously like Nobliss Gordon's men and that Nobliss Gordon has set himself against Tekkadan is pretty loving stupid. Nobliss Gordon is explicitly working with Gjallarhorn. Why would Nobliss send gangland assassins to anonymously shoot Orga and no one else from Tekkadan present rather than call up Rustal and go "yo dude Orga Itsuka is completely undefended right now, free win" to curry an ENORMOUS amount of favor from the most powerful man in the solar system right now?
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Mar 21, 2017 02:46
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Kanos posted:Nobliss Gordon is explicitly working with Gjallarhorn. Why would Nobliss send gangland assassins to anonymously shoot Orga and no one else from Tekkadan present rather than call up Rustal and go "yo dude Orga Itsuka is completely undefended right now, free win" to curry an ENORMOUS amount of favor from the most powerful man in the solar system right now? Plus his job is to control the media he has no real reason to shoot Orga, rather then simply call Rustal. Not that Nobliss should know as he should have no clue about any of them leaving the compound. I think his goons did preform the Hit. But it was at McGillis's urging.
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Mar 21, 2017 04:40
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Kanos posted:Nobliss Gordon is explicitly working with Gjallarhorn. Why would Nobliss send gangland assassins to anonymously shoot Orga and no one else from Tekkadan present rather than call up Rustal and go "yo dude Orga Itsuka is completely undefended right now, free win" to curry an ENORMOUS amount of favor from the most powerful man in the solar system right now? Because his plan in the first season was to create a scenario where Kudelia was apparently martyred by Gjallarhorn on public television, triggering a bloody, catastrophic rebellion he could profit from. It looks very much like he's about to play Rustal hard by doing the exact same thing - which also aligns with the interests of McGillis, the man who worships violent struggle. After all, the Tekkadan kids can't die gloriously with the eyes of the world watching them if they have an escape route.
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Mar 21, 2017 11:13
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Maybe it turns out it was a random person who saw the people openly wearing Tekkadan jackets and called the police, and it filtered its way up to Nobliss.
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Mar 21, 2017 11:42
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Did anyone ever consider it might be that Gjallarhorn would have spotters watching the known associates of Tekkadan like the Admoss Company just in case they try to help, so when they see the goddamn boss of Tekkadan pull up in a car and walk inside they'd be screaming for a hit team to get there ASAP?
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Mar 21, 2017 11:47
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Did anyone ever consider it might be that Gjallarhorn would have spotters watching the known associates of Tekkadan like the Admoss Company just in case they try to help, so when they see the goddamn boss of Tekkadan pull up in a car and walk inside they'd be screaming for a hit team to get there ASAP? No, because the operation is close enough to legitimate that they could have done it with actual Gjallarhorn soldiers rather than Men in Black.
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Mar 21, 2017 12:02
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Did anyone ever consider it might be that Gjallarhorn would have spotters watching the known associates of Tekkadan like the Admoss Company just in case they try to help, so when they see the goddamn boss of Tekkadan pull up in a car and walk inside they'd be screaming for a hit team to get there ASAP? This is plausible but there's literally no reason why they'd send an anonymous hit squad of guys in suits to do a drive by instead of just sending in a platoon of infantry to do the job. Tekkadan is currently Public Enemy Number Two(McGillis is #1), so they don't need to cover anything up. There's also no reason why a Gjallarhorn-led operation would leave the other members of Tekkadan present at the scene alive and free; Rustal was very, very clear to Orga that he plans to kill every loving last one of them to prove a point, and there were multiple other people wearing Tekkadan jackets(seriously, guys, maybe want to take off the jackets for a bit).
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Mar 21, 2017 12:11
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Darth Walrus posted:No, because the operation is close enough to legitimate that they could have done it with actual Gjallarhorn soldiers rather than Men in Black. No, there's a difference between honorable combat against a dangerous armed organization who are clearly attacking valiant Gjallarhorn soldiers first and gunning a man down in a major city street. They need big bad Tekkadan to go down fighting to look like big heroes. An arrest or even a murder makes them look bad when they need everything to go as-designed and come out looking clean and pure. Kanos posted:This is plausible but there's literally no reason why they'd send an anonymous hit squad of guys in suits to do a drive by instead of just sending in a platoon of infantry to do the job. Tekkadan is currently Public Enemy Number Two(McGillis is #1), so they don't need to cover anything up. There's also no reason why a Gjallarhorn-led operation would leave the other members of Tekkadan present at the scene alive and free; Rustal was very, very clear to Orga that he plans to kill every loving last one of them to prove a point, and there were multiple other people wearing Tekkadan jackets(seriously, guys, maybe want to take off the jackets for a bit). Again, openly gunning them all down in the streets doesn't fit their narrative. The public have to see that Tekkadan are a dangerous rogue element, but putting a bullet in their boss is a matter of opportunity that makes things go a whole lot easier when the real shooting starts. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Mar 21, 2017 |
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Mar 21, 2017 12:11
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Eh, there's lots of ways to spin it. Tekkadan refuses to surrender and tries to take hostages, etc. Or if the Admoss company will speak up about it (of course they will), then just implicate Admoss company too. It's not like there's people on the streets or TV cameras rolling. Sure, there'll be witnesses but when you control the local media, who gives a poo poo.
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Mar 21, 2017 12:48
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Neddy Seagoon posted:No, there's a difference between honorable combat against a dangerous armed organization who are clearly attacking valiant Gjallarhorn soldiers first and gunning a man down in a major city street. They need big bad Tekkadan to go down fighting to look like big heroes. An arrest or even a murder makes them look bad when they need everything to go as-designed and come out looking clean and pure. Tekkadan already opened hostilities, on camera. Arresting or (deeply unfortunately) killing the leader of Tekkadan and his perifidious subordinates while they were attempting to contact other seditious elements for assistance in evading Gjallarhorn's justice would play to the narrative perfectly. As a bonus, it would be pretty easy to manipulate a captured Orga, Chad, or Ride into saying pretty much anything they want them to say on camera in exchange for (false) promises regarding the safety of the rest of Tekkadan. What a propaganda coup it would be for Rustal if he could get the leader of Tekkadan on camera talking about how McGillis seduced him with the promise of becoming the King of Mars, for example. That would very, very cleanly paint McGillis in the public eye as a dangerous self-aggrandizing autocratic madman and Rustal as the loyal defender of stability and freedom.
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Mar 21, 2017 13:09
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Kanos posted:Tekkadan already opened hostilities, on camera. Arresting or (deeply unfortunately) killing the leader of Tekkadan and his perifidious subordinates while they were attempting to contact other seditious elements for assistance in evading Gjallarhorn's justice would play to the narrative perfectly. As a bonus, it would be pretty easy to manipulate a captured Orga, Chad, or Ride into saying pretty much anything they want them to say on camera in exchange for (false) promises regarding the safety of the rest of Tekkadan. What a propaganda coup it would be for Rustal if he could get the leader of Tekkadan on camera talking about how McGillis seduced him with the promise of becoming the King of Mars, for example. That would very, very cleanly paint McGillis in the public eye as a dangerous self-aggrandizing autocratic madman and Rustal as the loyal defender of stability and freedom. Rustal explicitly told Orga directly that he didn't want a propaganda victory. Tekkadan has to be killed to a man in a big public battle to make Gjallarhorn look heroic.
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Mar 21, 2017 13:20
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Rustal explicitly told Orga directly that he didn't want a propaganda victory. Tekkadan has to be killed to a man in a big public battle to make Gjallarhorn look heroic. Arresting or killing Orga and friends publicly doesn't stop them from crushing Tekkadan in a big public battle. It just adds potential icing on top.
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Mar 21, 2017 13:25
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Kanos posted:Arresting or killing Orga and friends publicly doesn't stop them from crushing Tekkadan in a big public battle. It just adds potential icing on top. They can crush the rest of Tekkadan while arresting their cowardly leader slinking away after sacrificing the rest of them to cover his getaway. Just like CGS did in the very beginning.
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Mar 21, 2017 19:02
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I'm just happy that our boy Takaki is moving up in the civilian world. 
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Mar 21, 2017 20:59
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Bloody Pom posted:I'm just happy that our boy Takaki is moving up in the civilian world. Well, someone has to survive to tell the story.
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Mar 21, 2017 21:00
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Jesus christ, that would be both perfect and heartbreaking.
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Mar 21, 2017 21:02
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ImpAtom posted:Well, someone has to survive to tell the story. Yeah, I can't wait for that last shot where Granddad Iok is telling his kids how he was the lone survivor of the Massacre on Mars.
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Mar 21, 2017 21:54
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genericnick posted:So how do you reconcile that with his later monologuing about wolves hunting in packs and that poo poo being not for him? Because that reads like he gave up on Mika. It's so sour grapes, too. Like he's trying to rationalize his failure to pull Mika into his Randian-superman-fantasy larp. That said, I think he was *way* too quietly okay with Orga saying he would call the shots from now on, and it would very much fit Macgillis if he considered it a valid way of loosening Mika's other personal ties (remember Macky doesn't acknowledge forms of power he doesn't understand?). It's entirely possible he did the hit, though I'm on the fence about who the show will go with, if they even do. (When I watched the ep, I figured it was Rustal's guys or even, assuming the show bothers telling us, Jasley remnants. Once a buddy suggested it was macgillis I was like wait, poo poo, he *knew* they'd be there, so I'll see I guess.) junopsis fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Mar 21, 2017 |
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Mar 21, 2017 23:03
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So McGillis is going to come out ahead in the end right? He's been pretty chill about his life's ambition falling apart around him and the words the guy in charge of Mars had about you never know how things are going to end up seem like some heavy foreshadowing.
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Mar 21, 2017 23:48
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Ethiser posted:So McGillis is going to come out ahead in the end right? He's been pretty chill about his life's ambition falling apart around him and the words the guy in charge of Mars had about you never know how things are going to end up seem like some heavy foreshadowing. I think he (and Nobliss) will pull off a spectacular reversal against Rustal, but Mika (and possibly Julietta, and/or even Iok) will find a way to screw him over. He doesn't understand or care about love, friendship, or the capacity for forgiveness, and that seems like a huge and fatal blind spot in a Gundam show, let alone a Mari Okada Gundam show.
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Mar 21, 2017 23:56
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