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I'm probably missing something and since A) I never played the Kung Fu god and B) its creator spent 200 hours balancing it already so I'm just speculating, but the main thing I'm seeing is that people are constantly using the one ability because it's better than tabbing? Why not just add a cooldown or exhaustion level to the abilities that are causing grief so that a player can use them a few times but have to wait a couple of turns between uses if they've spammed it too much, kind like that one gun in Halo that overheats if you go nuts with it?
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Mar 20, 2017 17:22
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lazorexplosion posted:Hey if you want to argue for neutering it for balance reasons knock yourself out, but pretending that you need to do it because alternating two different buttons is just too arduous compared to pressing one button the same number of times is hilarious. you can also continue telling me that it's not annoying but like, you can't really decide what is and isn't annoying for other people and I know I am not alone in this.
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Mar 20, 2017 17:34
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Samog posted:is the wuxia god actually so strong compared to every other god in the game that it needs more nerfs Summons 5 allies in exchange for * to kill samog.
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Mar 20, 2017 18:26
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quote:1770955 rj54x the Impregnable (level 27, 189/189 HPs) Gargoyle hits 115 points of defences in 3-rune game, nerf Gargoyle. (Don't actually nerf Gargoyle, in a game like Crawl it's good for different species / backgrounds / gods to have differing power levels) (Any item with +blink is more broken than Wu Jian wall jump was by giving free escape option for a minimal evocations investment, without needing to be adjacent to a wall. They're admittedly rare, but hell I found two of 'em this game)
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Mar 20, 2017 18:33
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Is a scarf of cold resistance just a scarf?
Maxmaps fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 18:38
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Maxmaps posted:Is a scarf of cold resistance just a scarf? It's a very fluffy scarf.
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Mar 20, 2017 18:46
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Nice try steel neuron. Iron council ruled.
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Mar 20, 2017 19:09
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Going to save the cool and good version that I downloaded the other week forever.
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Mar 21, 2017 00:06
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Crawl .20: Wu Jiang Clan got hosed with Edit: I'm a filthy casual who really enjoyed the fresh take on a melee God and it was really fun in the iteration that let me whirlwind and walljump with reckless abandon. It got me interested in the game again. Fhqwhgads fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Mar 21, 2017 |
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Mar 21, 2017 01:58
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Games › Crawl .20: Wu Jian Council Ain't Nuthing Ta gently caress Wit e:  I was looking at the wrong page and got Chei'd
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Mar 21, 2017 02:33
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i am glad to see that after I took a break and returned Crawl remains the same: the devs removing fun and useful things because Tavern doesn't like them.
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Mar 21, 2017 02:42
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Chas McGill posted:Going to save the cool and good version that I downloaded the other week forever. Could you put that up somewhere? I didn't grab it. edit: Assuming this isn't  if it is, I made a mistake and don't want it.
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Mar 21, 2017 02:51
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It's tempting to be snarky like everyone else who doesn't like the nerf, but I think I used all of that up when high elf was removed. I genuinely don't understand the thought process behind the change, and I again wonder why something that was almost universally praised is being made less fun. I don't think there is a case to be made that overpowered play styles are a problem as long as challenge races/gods are still in the game. e.g., mummy is seriously not a fun race to play and it gimped as all hell, but some people like it, so it stays. That's fine. Balance and fun are not a factor there. WJC is fun and easier than many other gameplay options, but lots of people like it, so it should stay too. If Crawl savants get to keep their challenge playstyles, "fun-seeking" players should get to keep something that they enjoy too, especially when there's so much enthusiasm behind it.
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Mar 21, 2017 03:01
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was wjc even good in extended
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Mar 21, 2017 03:01
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Captain Monkey posted:Could you put that up somewhere? I didn't grab it. It's not , anyone can grab the master branch of Crawl, then reset it to any previous version they desire (including the one right before the WJC nerfs). After I'm done with rebuilding my local branch for Cyno, I'll do most of the dirty work and provide a link so that all you have to do is download/clone it and compile.Edit: Here's a pre-nerf branch. I won't be updating it with any other changes, so it will stay forever frozen in time at the point in development right before WJC was nerfed. I'll try to get a compiled version together as well for download from another link, but it will take a bit. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Mar 21, 2017 |
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Mar 21, 2017 03:02
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Can we get WJC merged into .19 and also have rMut added back in? Then we can gooncrawl forever and never bother the devs again.
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Mar 21, 2017 03:45
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Here's a Tiles compilation of pre-nerf WJC for those who don't want to learn to compile Crawl (console lovers will have to compile it themselves or ask someone else).Speleothing posted:Can we get WJC merged into .19 and also have rMut added back in? Then we can gooncrawl forever and never bother the devs again. You'll want to make a fork of Crawl's respository. From there, make a branch based off of stone_soup_0.19 and push that to your fork for a development branch. After this, to add back in amulets of rMut you'll probably want to look mainly at this commit and manually revert the changes. You may have to put in a bit of effort if the related files have changed in format since removal. To add in WJC, you'll want to use git cherry-pick to grab this commit from the master branch (either from your fork or the main repository), any previous commits that are required to have that commit function, and any future commits up to the point you want to stop (such as changing Ieoh to Wu).
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Mar 21, 2017 04:05
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Uh wow, well thanks for being super legit. Thats a lot more effort than you needed to put out so I really appreciate it.
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Mar 21, 2017 04:43
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Samog posted:was wjc even good in extended Never provided anything tailored towards extended but none of its abilities were rendered useless by demonic/undead resists, so it worked fine there. Another god that can do find in extended but you'll need to get your defenses from somewhere else since they provide none. The vast majority of gods fall into this category. Not that it matters since devs never balance around extended anyways.
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Mar 21, 2017 04:47
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I guess I missed it, what is the actual nerf? Loss of slow on the jump?
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Mar 21, 2017 04:48
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Everyone makes fun of this thread but the Tavern is the ULTIMATE grognard whine centre. The only difference is we make lovely mean shitposts about stuff we don't like, whereas the Tavern writes novels about how having rMut is bad and then submit a github pull request
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Mar 21, 2017 04:50
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Whirlwind was probably too good but should have had its damage nerfed instead; the sweet spot is probably around 75% of normal damage so you get a significant bonus against two enemies but a significant penalty vs only one enemy. Walljump requiring you to land next to an enemy is utter horseshit that reinforces to me that the game being fun isn't a goal of the dev team, and hasn't been for a while. (My hot take fix would be to make it exhaust you but that's just theorycrafting and I'm sure it's one of the ideas Steel Neuron had and tried).
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Mar 21, 2017 05:46
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Aw damnit, haven't played in several weeks because I finally got Overwatch and didn't get to try out full powered Wu on webtiles. Could always get the compiled version but man I prefer webtiles over it so much more.
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Mar 21, 2017 06:32
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dpeg posted:Alright, I'm done here too. yeah, and his name is dpeg! CLUB_AIRHORN_TRIPLEBLAST.OGG
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Mar 21, 2017 09:26
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I support the changes to the council god, even if I'm not entirely sure what they are. Trunk for life.
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Mar 21, 2017 10:16
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So the new thing being discussed is merging WJC with Uskayaw, taking the least important parts of WJC in a completely disconnected way and making GBS threads all over Usk in the process. Removing opacity from the HoE clouds is also on the table (which is the entire point of the ability, even more than the slaying) I can't even. The reason why I made that last tavern post is because I would have expected the devs to at least leave the god stable for a while with the new changes and evaluate if they were good, but apparently there is no time for that. I foresee than in a month or two the god will either be completely unrecognizable or outright removed (and if I'm being cynical, I'm starting to think this looks like a microsoft style embrace-extend-extinguish cycle). Anyway, back to working on my own stuff! At least I'm glad I know where to put my effort now. SteelNeuron fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Mar 21, 2017 |
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Mar 21, 2017 10:43
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Please let us know when ya got something up and running. Would love to try it out.
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Mar 21, 2017 11:22
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SteelNeuron posted:So the new thing being discussed is merging WJC with Uskayaw, taking the least important parts of WJC in a completely disconnected way and making GBS threads all over Usk in the process. Removing opacity from the HoE clouds is also on the table (which is the entire point of the ability, even more than the slaying) I can't even. Hey on the upside, making the god caused you to join SA, so now you're a stupid arsehole like the rest of us and you get to enjoy stupid arsehole posting in the worst comedy forum in the galaxy. Did I say upside?
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Mar 21, 2017 11:31
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Paging IronicDongz, I have some Beogh questions. If you gift an orc follower an unbranded weapon, will Beogh eventually upgrade it with a brand? Will gifted items get upgraded at all? I've had a severe shortage of branded polearms in my game and several chump warlords with axes/swords. Also I rolled snake and swamp and I'm worried about my orcs getting slaughtered by AoE poison damage, how bad is it really?
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Mar 21, 2017 13:52
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Captain Monkey posted:Uh wow, well thanks for being super legit. Thats a lot more effort than you needed to put out so I really appreciate it. No problem! SteelNeuron posted:So the new thing being discussed is merging WJC with Uskayaw, taking the least important parts of WJC in a completely disconnected way and making GBS threads all over Usk in the process. Removing opacity from the HoE clouds is also on the table (which is the entire point of the ability, even more than the slaying) I can't even. Here's the generic Roguelike megathread if you want another place to talk about your own work and post updates to. I would be interested to see a final product by you that is designed from the ground up in your own vision, instead of weighed down by the existing design philosophy and baggage of Crawl! As for WJC and the dev team's reaction to it, I would say that this has happened many times before and will continue to happen until the dev team decides they want to change the design philosophy. The dev team focuses on design first and fun second. This can lead to either minor tweaks, large scale revamps or removal because something is design problematic, which doesn't take into account whether or not the player base actually finds the end result 'fun'. For example, the original design of Formicids were "squishy, weak normal sized race with strength to wield large weapons". They had Stasis, -20% HP, -rPois, and normal sized shield breakpoints. They also still had their dig, shaft, and wield non-large two handed weapons in one hand. Despite having strong flavor and adhering to their design goal, they were considered design problematic for multiple reasons. -rPois was not interesting (more erratic early game with poison enemies with no real effect later). Being able to wield large weapons essentially made them a squishy ogre with plate armor and stasis, with 2-hand+shield being ignored for being too costly to train and not as strong as a GSC. Against the vision of the original creator, they stripped out the squishiness (normal HP and no weakness to poison) and the large weapons, removing most of the original ant flavor. Instead, they focused on Stasis (and by extension, dig/shaft) and improving the 2-hand+shield concept, which are what they considered the interesting parts. Applying the above to WJC, they found the concept initially implemented as design problematic (ignore the Tavern talking about fun, as it's entirely subjective to them and not coming directly from the dev team's mouth). Once you volunteered your code to the project, you opted into surrendering your control over the design focus; you can still contribute and advise, but it no longer is yours to drive. What looks like the Frankenstein process of desecrating your work is them taking what they feel are the most interesting (from a design viewpoint) features and trying to get it to work within the design philosophy of Crawl to keep them. If that is too frustrating to watch, I would recommend just ignoring whatever it turns into in the end and focus more on your own game, where you will always have control of the design you want and the direction you take.
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Mar 21, 2017 14:18
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SteelNeuron posted:So the new thing being discussed is merging WJC with Uskayaw, taking the least important parts of WJC in a completely disconnected way and making GBS threads all over Usk in the process. Removing opacity from the HoE clouds is also on the table (which is the entire point of the ability, even more than the slaying) I can't even. This is honestly one of the most  posts I have read in a long time. Sorry about your loss, man
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Mar 21, 2017 14:18
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Floodkiller posted:Applying the above to WJC, they found the concept initially implemented as design problematic (ignore the Tavern talking about fun, as it's entirely subjective to them and not coming directly from the dev team's mouth). Once you volunteered your code to the project, you opted into surrendering your control over the design focus; you can still contribute and advise, but it no longer is yours to drive. What looks like the Frankenstein process of desecrating your work is them taking what they feel are the most interesting (from a design viewpoint) features and trying to get it to work within the design philosophy of Crawl to keep them. If that is too frustrating to watch, I would recommend just ignoring whatever it turns into in the end and focus more on your own game, where you will always have control of the design you want and the direction you take. That's a very fair and balanced perspective. Thanks.
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Mar 21, 2017 14:39
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Wu could be reworked to have Usk style piety; rapidly building in combat, rapidly decaying outside of combat, and high ability costs. Reverse their other nerfs, and balance them around momentum. It'll also discourage the hated luring in the process.
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Mar 21, 2017 15:03
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I found the pacing for the WCJ changes odd, there was definitely a communication problem sometime before it got to this point. This reminds me of the "patches welcome" approach of contributing that is encouraged. We talked about it before (with Floodkiller I think?) and while it's pragmatic from a developer's point of view to prefer patches and compiling/testing over a tavern post, some things will simply not happen in Crawl no matter what even if they're not on a "won't do" list and not everyone takes well to finding this out after doing all the work necessary for anything that involves new content and such. Sure, maybe some things could only be found out through testing, but there's things like wall jumps that could have been rejected before it got to trunk because you can simply read the ability description and get that this would be rejected from the beginning from a design standpoint. Allowing this set up the wrong expectations; like more creator involvement is implied here. Which brings me to this: Floodkiller posted:Applying the above to WJC, they found the concept initially implemented as design problematic (ignore the Tavern talking about fun, as it's entirely subjective to them and not coming directly from the dev team's mouth). Once you volunteered your code to the project, you opted into surrendering your control over the design focus; you can still contribute and advise, but it no longer is yours to drive. What looks like the Frankenstein process of desecrating your work is them taking what they feel are the most interesting (from a design viewpoint) features and trying to get it to work within the design philosophy of Crawl to keep them. If that is too frustrating to watch, I would recommend just ignoring whatever it turns into in the end and focus more on your own game, where you will always have control of the design you want and the direction you take. I think the takeaway here is that it's unrealistic to expect everyone who contributes to be completely detached to their efforts; but if expectations are tempered beforehand it would definitely avoid headaches in the future, and it might even get more people to contribute! I also think it's unfair to expect contributors to get what you said here beforehand and it's very important they understand what it means to spend hours on end to contribute to anything in crawl game-design/content wise, specially if you're not part of the team and working closely with them. This game has been constantly getting hammered into shape by a very strict set of design principles and it's gotten to the point where it's going to take a very long time for any new major content additions to get past the filter that is the design philosophy+dev interpretation of these philosophies, there's only so many ways you can do this without bumping into something that already exists (or by somebody's interpretation is a variation of something that exists). @SteelNeuron, I think fundamentally there is a fissure between you and DCSS's vision, and that's fine. I can tell you genuinely care about making things fun and interesting for people, and your creative energy will be valuable for making something amazing in the future. I'm sorry things turned out this way, FWIW. Lesson learned, I guess! (Hopefully on both sides)
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Mar 21, 2017 16:06
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Whenever people start talking about "visions" in their videogame while the community wails and gnashes teeth about changes being unfun it usually means the devs need to crawl back out from inside their own assholes. Unless the goal is to make a game only they want to play.
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Mar 21, 2017 16:09
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What is Niggerkiller's opinion on this matter?
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Mar 21, 2017 16:21
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apple posted:but there's things like wall jumps that could have been rejected before it got to trunk because you can simply read the ability description and get that this would be rejected from the beginning from a design standpoint. Allowing this set up the wrong expectations; like more creator involvement is implied here. Oh boy. Where do I start. You really think I developed this in isolation? There has been dev involvement since day one. Various devs have criticised, in great detail, mechanics that go all the way back to October, when the god looked like this. Ever since we had an experimental branch, every new mechanic was met with a lot of discussion and scrutiny. I was told to renounce to several mechanics because they didn't fit crawl's philosophy, and I did. The god has been through dozens of iterations to fit the arbitrary but understandable restrictions that the devs brought up. When the god got added to trunk it wasn't one dev randomly hitting the merge button, it involved an open survey in crawl-ref-discuss and lots of ##crawl-dev discussion. At no point was wall jump raised as a problem then. EDIT: Sorry guys, I'm a bit worked up today, but I appreciate the support! I really want this to be a warning to anyone who wants to put effort into crawl development, and thinking that this could have been preventing as easily as having someone read the ability description is ridiculous. Devs knew of this ability in a lot of detail when they chose to add it to trunk. SteelNeuron fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Mar 21, 2017 |
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Mar 21, 2017 16:27
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Also, how does WJCs wall jump get neutered before swiftness and summon butterflies, the most low-investment/no-brainer escape options in the game? At least WJC requires a god commitment and specific terrain for wall jump to be a viable escape option.
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Mar 21, 2017 16:33
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Fitzy Fitz posted:Also, how does WJCs wall jump get neutered before swiftness and summon butterflies, the most low-investment/no-brainer escape options in the game? At least WJC requires a god commitment and specific terrain for wall jump to be a viable escape option. Well you see those are also Bad Design™ just like spriggans and centaurs.
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Mar 21, 2017 16:39
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 I forgot about summon butterflies. Which dev wants to talk about summon butterflies.
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Mar 21, 2017 16:41
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