SteelNeuron posted:

Oh boy. Where do I start. You really think I developed this in isolation?

There has been dev involvement since day one. Various devs have criticised, in great detail, mechanics that go all the way back to October, when the god looked like this. Ever since we had an experimental branch, every new mechanic was met with a lot of discussion and scrutiny. I was told to renounce to several mechanics because they didn't fit crawl's philosophy, and I did. The god has been through dozens of iterations to fit the arbitrary but understandable restrictions that the devs brought up.

When the god got added to trunk it wasn't one dev randomly hitting the merge button, it involved an open survey in crawl-ref-discuss and lots of ##crawl-dev discussion. At no point was wall jump raised as a problem then.

apple posted:

-snip-

Nuclearmonkee posted:

Whenever people start talking about "visions" in their videogame while the community wails and gnashes teeth about changes being unfun it usually means the devs need to crawl back out from inside their own assholes.

Unless the goal is to make a game only they want to play.

SteelNeuron posted:

-snip-

Floodkiller posted:

I know there was some collaboration, but since October and this wasn't brought up as an issue at all? I really feel sorry for you hearing that. I haven't looked at the IRC logs or mailing archive, but it looks like MarvinPA was the one who pushed the commit that changed it so he might have been the one to bring up the topic (and the other devs agreed); how much collaboration did he provide?

Floodkiller posted:

I'm asking because the issue might have been brought up by someone who wasn't following the project until it was merged, and only then noticed the issue (that others may have considered less troublesome until pointed out and discussed).

Fitzy Fitz posted:

I genuinely don't understand the thought process behind the change, and I again wonder why something that was almost universally praised is being made less fun.

Samog posted:

was wjc even good in extended

Darox posted:

Paging IronicDongz, I have some Beogh questions.
If you gift an orc follower an unbranded weapon, will Beogh eventually upgrade it with a brand? Will gifted items get upgraded at all? I've had a severe shortage of branded polearms in my game and several chump warlords with axes/swords.

Also I rolled snake and swamp and I'm worried about my orcs getting slaughtered by AoE poison damage, how bad is it really?

SteelNeuron posted:

Yep, that someone is minmay.

SKULL.GIF posted:

I don't have much to say about the WJC changes aside from expressing some disappointment that the slowing was removed without having a compensatory change in place to go. I know there was some talk about extending the Distraction mechanic to the rest of the god's abilities, and making Lunge work off that. I'm concerned that stripping slow without having that extension in place to go will end up having the current iteration languish -- especially since the dev team tends to be conservative about adding mechanics. Work-in-progress and all, though.

If you prefer an older version of the game, go ahead and play that! We have a version system for a reason, and older versions of Crawl are still hosted and available for download. I also want to remind people that the devs encourage people to fork Crawl. This game is open source: go ahead and take advantage of that.

SteelNeuron, I think I said this before to you, but I encourage you to work on your own projects! You have a lot of ideas that I find really interesting, that will have trouble finding compatibility with Crawl which is at this point a very old game with a lot of established precedent and history. Breaking off and working on your own roguelike (for example) gives you a lot of room to experiment and try out stuff that would never fly in Crawl. If you do, I'm looking forward to your posts in SA's roguelikes thread or /r/roguelikes (or /roguelikedev).

Darth Windu posted:

Not surprising. That guy is honestly a piece of poo poo. I've gone into the crawl chat a few times and he does his best to belittle and drive out any new or "fun" players.

Unimpressed posted:

They're all gone...

SteelNeuron, when you make your game, I don't think there's a single person itt who isn't going to buy it. Count me in.

Floodkiller posted:

I agree that there probably should be something that lays out what to expect after submitting a contribution. There is this document for describing the general process for contributions. Pass your post or a condensed paragraph by ##crawl-dev and see if something can get added to that document under an Expectations banner or something similar.

apple posted:

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but it's actually really depressing/draining just to follow this whole ordeal.

SKULL.GIF posted:

A couple thoughts after reading the last few pages:

I want to caution against getting too worked up about Crawl becoming too hard. I've noticed that SA discussion, in the years I've been reading it, has a habit of reinforcing everyone else's negative opinions about a game (or another piece of media) and everyone gets worked up and starts thinking that the game really going completely loving awful to poo poo. This isn't something I see in other spaces that discuss Crawl. A lot of these removals that people are bemoaning mattered a lot less, in the long term of Crawl, than the posts discussing them made it seem.

apple posted:

I post here in SA mostly because it's a fun diversion alongside playing Crawl when I get the itch. Diving into Crawl IRC to persuade a group of devs to add something even if it's trivial sounds like a lot of work, more than I'm willing to put. I realize that their mailing list and IRC is the dev team's comfort zone and that's okay.

e: Also I'm not sure now is a good time to bring something like that up anyway, it's probably best to let the dust settle on the matter

SKULL.GIF posted:

I think it's still applicable today.

SKULL.GIF posted:

Apple, if you submit or make a PR that expands on process.txt to explain what happens/what to expect after the contribution is added to Crawl then I'd be happy to merge it into that file. The process for getting minor edits and updates into the game is pretty casual, really. If it's a markedly better improvement, or if it's something that reasonably clears things up then a dev will go ahead and add it in without a second thought. Mechanics changes or content additions get more scrutiny.

pathetic little tramp posted:

Whatever happened to that one "let's just go fuckin crazy and give each species crazy cool poo poo to do" branch, it was called circus animals or something?

cheetah7071 posted:

I would definitely play gooncrawl if someone made a version with rmut, fun WJC, singularity, and whatever other perennial complaints we have reverted (crown of eternal torment???)

someone awful. posted:

Ogre aptitudes confuse me now. Why are they worse at m&f, their nearly race-defining weapon class, than they are at staves and polearms (iirc)? Feels weird

It's like making spriggans bad at short blades or something

someone awful. posted:

Ogre aptitudes confuse me now. Why are they worse at m&f, their nearly race-defining weapon class, than they are at staves and polearms (iirc)? Feels weird

It's like making spriggans bad at short blades or something

quote:

MarvinPA committed on Dec 10, 2016

As an alternative to the proposal of Basajaunak as a large caster race, instead
let Ogres take more advantage of their Ogre Mage heritage, with -1 spell school
apts across the board. Also give them more starting int but less str/dex, and
significantly decrease their M&F apt - they're still uniquely able to make the
most of GSCs but now require more of an investment to do so (and might feasibly
consider other weapon types too), and the extra XP cost for GSC usage is likely
more than made up for by the XP saved on spell schools.

cheetah7071 posted:

I would definitely play gooncrawl if someone made a version with rmut, fun WJC, singularity, and whatever other perennial complaints we have reverted (crown of eternal torment???)

Haifisch posted:

Crabs. Crabs everywhere. High Crabs. Mountain Crabs. Sigcrab. Lom Locrab.

Roctavian posted:

none of you whiny assholes said a loving thing when pizza got removed which invalidates all of your opinions

Floodkiller posted:

pizza

I hope royal jelly gets turned into a custom food type instead so I can set it back to pizza in the rcfile someday

Decrepus posted: